Sciencemadness Discussion Board

General questions

Yttrium2 - 27-3-2018 at 06:45

What can be used in place of an electric submersible pump for a condenser?
Do siphon pumps work, I'm not sure how high they can pump.

Also, does anyone have any information on used a fredrich condenser to distill liquids? can it be arranged in the slant fashion that liebig condensers are oftenly arranged in? Or does it need to be vertical

Ubya - 27-3-2018 at 09:20
Quote:

What can be used in place of an electric submersible pump for a condenser? Do siphon pumps work, I'm not sure how high they can pump


i don't know why you wouldn't like to use a submersible pump, anyway, if the problem is the pump being underwater you can use a diaphragm self priming water pump, they are cheap on ebay.
Quote:

Do siphon pumps work, I'm not sure how high they can pump.


i'm not sure what you mean by siphon pump, if you mean the "hand pump" type, i can't understand how this could be better or useful, pumping by hand for hours it's not something i would recommend, but maybe exists a "siphon pump" i'm not aware of, if so, can you show me?
Quote:

does anyone have any information on used a fredrich condenser to distill liquids? can it be arranged in the slant fashion that liebig condensers are oftenly arranged in? Or does it need to be vertical


it should be used vertically, i think the glass tube inside if full of water could weight a bit and maybe crack.

NEMO-Chemistry - 27-3-2018 at 11:48

I use my friedrichs on the side with no issue, But make sure your not confusing a Graham condenser. The freidrichs is just a cold coil and the Graham has the liquid inside the coil and coolant outside (I think!! But i get confused).

Ubya - 28-3-2018 at 01:17

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
I use my friedrichs on the side with no issue, But make sure your not confusing a Graham condenser. The freidrichs is just a cold coil and the Graham has the liquid inside the coil and coolant outside (I think!! But i get confused).

yup, friedrich condenser has a coil with coolant inside, while a graham condenser has the coolant outside the coil

Yttrium2 - 28-3-2018 at 16:09

Could anyone answer the question?

What do people do when they have no power

Reboot - 28-3-2018 at 17:28

Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2  

What do people do when they have no power


Read a book? :-)

I suspect the answer you're looking for is probably an air condenser. That's the traditional method for moonshiners (a long copper coil in open air as the condenser.) In more modern terms I exptect a long glass tube or vigreux column would work well for most things.

If your concern is backup power (in case of a power outage) I would look into Uninterruptible Power Supplies (UPS), which are just automatic battery backups often used for computers. They aren't terribly expensive, and could run a small water pump long enough to let a hot reaction (something that refluxes from it's internal heat production) run its course.

Ubya - 28-3-2018 at 21:37

an UPS is a good idea, but if you want a more DIY option you could just hook up an inverter to a lead acid battery, 12v to 220v (or 110v). a submersible pump draws about 6-9W of power, even a small 10Ah battery could power the pump for 20 hours!
you could also just buy a 12v DC submersible pump and avoid the inverter, just connect battery to pump and you are good to go. to charge the battery if you don't have electricity where you are you could use a small solar panel (10W) and let it charge when you are not using it

Radium212 - 29-3-2018 at 02:30

Also, if you have no power I assume you're using a burner for boiling.

BromicAcid - 29-3-2018 at 03:26

When I was younger and stupider (before the thought of a submersible pump crossed my mind) I had two 5 gallon buckets that I had tapped at the bottom with a hose barb. I had the hose barb connected to tubing that lead to the condenser from each bucket. There was a shelf in my garage above where I worked. I would take a full bucket and lift it up on the shelf and it would drain out through the tubing and into the other bucket over the course of ~7 minutes. Then I would take the full bucket on the bottom and put it on the shelf and drop the other back down. Occasionally I would add ice our dump out some water. It was a huge hassle.

Yttrium2 - 29-3-2018 at 08:01

Quote: Originally posted by Reboot  
Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2  

What do people do when they have no power


Read a book? :-)

I suspect the answer you're looking for is probably an air condenser. That's the traditional method for moonshiners (a long copper coil in open air as the condenser.) In more modern terms I exptect a long glass tube or vigreux column would work well for most things.

If your concern is backup power (in case of a power outage) I would look into Uninterruptible Power Supplies (UPS), which are just automatic battery backups often used for computers. They aren't terribly expensive, and could run a small water pump long enough to let a hot reaction (something that refluxes from it's internal heat production) run its course.



Which reaction is it that you have in mind that refluxes from it's own internal heat production?

I'm set on the idea of using some sort of a hand operated pump to run ice cold water from a bucket, through the condenser, and back towards the bucket.

If anyone has information on what type of hand pump would be capable of pushing water up through a 200mm condenser I'd greatly appreciate it.

Also, how does one determine what pump, or how strong of a pump is needed?

Does Pascal's principles come into play here? Which do?
(Also should this be do Pascal's principles or does Pascal's principles?)

How high could one of these pump? And could someone explain the principles behind it?

[Edited on 3/29/2018 by Yttrium2]

5f925969-9fa8-4f6b-b55f-929c6d14a2fc_1.c31e3612e6640ba645f9dd2445e884f3.jpeg - 17kB

[Edited on 3/29/2018 by Yttrium2]

Boiling in an erlenmeyer flask

Yttrium2 - 29-3-2018 at 08:06

I've read that this should not be done, even with a borosilicate erlenmeyer


Can someone explain why this is?

PirateDocBrown - 29-3-2018 at 08:38

Nonsense. E-flasks are designed for gentle reflux of low boiling solvents.

LearnedAmateur - 29-3-2018 at 08:45

Well it’s a somewhat sharp corner at the bottom, and sharp corners in glass hold the most stress hence are more likely to fracture when energy is applied because glass is brittle. Basically, any brittle material is really good at resisting compression/tension but absolutely sucks when it comes to perpendicular shear stress, like a glass rod - you can’t pull it apart but it will easily snap when you attempt to bend it. Same goes for beakers really, I’ve cracked several even under gentle heating whereas a proper boiling vessel can survive being hit with a direct flame.

Kinetic impacts also follow the same rule, everyone knows how easy it is to break beakers and that by dropping them whereas RBFs and such can actually survive a fall, but will likely develop microscopic fractures which can catastrophically fail during normal use.

Saying that though, I have boiled stuff in Erlenmeyers and beakers after gradual heating - you need to allow the glass to slowly adjust to the temperature change so stress points become more relaxed, like on a stovetop starting from RT.

Fulmen - 29-3-2018 at 08:59

I agree with PirateDocBrown, EM's are well suited for general boiling.

Ubya - 29-3-2018 at 09:32

you really don't need much pressure to pump water through a 200mm condenser, a 6W cheap centrifugal water pump can do it, i bet you can do it too.
i don't recommend pumping water by hand but it's your choice, i can just recommend a piston type hand pump, much more comfortable to use

d500e55a-0915-4bd9-b74c-8720cf671e81_1.2da3476c35b3af917883bb9b9633c235.jpeg - 27kB

Sulaiman - 29-3-2018 at 10:47

If you do use a hand pump then use the two-bucket method but rather than exchanging buckets you can pump water from the lower bucket to the higher bucket.

This will allow to take a break occasionally, or adjust things, without risking overheating.

Yttrium2 - 29-3-2018 at 17:11

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
If you do use a hand pump then use the two-bucket method but rather than exchanging buckets you can pump water from the lower bucket to the higher bucket.

This will allow to take a break occasionally, or adjust things, without risking overheating.


How are you envisioning the setup? Wouldn't water from the top bucket flow down through the tubing and back into the lower bucket?

I envision a pump at a lower elevation than the condenser, water flows up into the condenser, and back down into the bucket. I'm not understanding why one couldn't take a break in this scenario.

What setup are you envisioning would cause overheating?

[Edited on 3/30/2018 by Yttrium2]

[Edited on 3/30/2018 by Yttrium2]

Ubya - 30-3-2018 at 00:49

Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2  
[

I envision a pump at a lower elevation than the condenser, water flows up into the condenser, and back down into the bucket. I'm not understanding why one couldn't take a break in this scenario.

What setup are you envisioning would cause overheating?

well using a hand pump you have to costantly pump water right? if you take a break there's no water circulating in the condenser, this is what Sulaiman meant.
the setup described is:
you have a bucket full of water higher than the condenser and one empty bucket lower than the condenser.
you connect the 2 buckets to the condenser and let the water flow (use a siphon or some other method to start the water flowing).
you now pump water from the lower bucket to the higher bucket using the hand pump, this way it's a closed cycle.
in case you need a break you can stop pumping and the water will still flow from the top bucket to the lower bucket until it is empty, this takes 7 minutes as mentioned.
you have to constantly pump water as in your setup, but you have now the option of taking a rest for 7 minutes without stopping the distillation or refluxing.
Or if you can pump water faster than what's is flowing down you can let the top bucket nearly empty, pump the water from the lower bucket until it is full again and leave it draining again


[Edited on 30-3-2018 by Ubya]

Sulaiman - 30-3-2018 at 01:18

I have recently discovered the amazing cooling power of domestic central heating radiators,
I will be doing some measurements over the coming months so I hope to report on performance,
but from my initial investigation, for water, ethanol etc.
if an efficient condenser is used, the condenser and radiator can be connected with NO PUMP REQUIRED :o
as the heat of condensation drives the water in the cooling system.
(ambient here is <10oC as it is winter, I have not yet tested at higher ambient temperatures)

As noted above, moonshiners have designs for efficient air-cooled condensers - for ethanol boiling points.

Yttrium2 - 30-3-2018 at 07:26

I'm not sure if there is a one way valve in the pumps

If there is, my idea is to pump water up, and back around again.

The water will not be constantly flowing in my proposed set up, but I think the condenser will always have water in it, if there is a one way valve. If I notice condensation occuring further and further along the condenser, I will simply pump the bulb a few times which should recharge the condenser with fresh cold water. This eliminates the need for over head buckets.


In the previous setup, if one wanted to take a break when the water was in the lower bucket they'd have to get to pumping first. Right? Not only that, but it would leave the condenser empty, wouldn't it?

Hek, I'm confused right now as to if the water would even flow back down through the tubing. (Because of the one way valve)

In my idea, the bulb is only pressed a few times every so often to keep the condenser cold.

This eliminates water pumps, batteries, weight, space and most importantly, it can be done off the grid

However, I still don't have a grasp on the fundamental concepts that are befuddling me. Such as, how high can the siphon pump pump and what is the physics/math behind it.


I did some reading on Wikipedia yesterday on the concept of "Siphon"

-Apparently there is still some debate behind how a siphon works. I thought this to be surprising, as it's been around a really long time and I thought it was the change of air pressure that caused the siphon to work.-

Does anyone else know of things that have been around for a long long time that has workings that are still a mystery?

I know Wikipedia isn't the best source, but it did have references

I've yet to see a moonshiner with an air condenser
They must be HUGE air condensers when distilling all the mash moonshiners distill to make enough profit to be competitive

[Edited on 3/30/2018 by Yttrium2]

Ubya - 30-3-2018 at 07:47

Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2  


In my idea, the bulb is only pressed a few times every so often to keep the condenser cold.

This eliminates water pumps, batteries, weight, space


define "every so often".
while distilling ethylene glycol using a 200mm condenser and a small bucket of water (3L) i had to add ice maybe every 10 minutes to get water stable at 20-30°C.
in my opinion you would need to pump "every so often" every minute or less, unless you are using a 60cm condenser.
the colder the condenser the more you condense, even if you have in your bucket ice cold water but leave the water still in the condenser it will quickly raise its temperature loosing efficiency.
i don't think this is the best "off grid" solution, pumping water by hand even if a few times a minute sounds extremely time consuming, babysitting a distillation is already pretty boring, there's no need to add pain.
why not a cheap 10W 12V solar panel and a 6W dc submersible pump? no need to pump by hand, it's off grid, and you can use the solar panel for other things when it's note used to power the pump

Yttrium2 - 30-3-2018 at 10:54

There may be limited sunlight* Also, they do have solar powered water pumps (and fans for those living in cars) that are connected. No inverter or battery needed.

I think it would be fun to pump the bulb and look at how it affects condensation. It is tedious watching a pot boil, it'd give me something to do.

It'd be cool to be able to modulate the power of the condenser. I think? Perhaps it would suck... Hmm

Makes it into a bit of a game. One in which you have to divide your attention on several things at once. The temp, and how far condensate is traveling along the condenser.


By every so often I meant a couple times a minute, once the condenser becomes warmer I'll give it a few more pumps.

I don't think telling me how much ice water you had was necessary without telling me how big of a pot you had boiling.

[Edited on 3/30/2018 by Yttrium2]

Ubya - 30-3-2018 at 11:14
Quote:

I don't think telling me how much ice water you had was necessary without telling me how big of a pot you had boiling. 

you are right. it was 1L of solution of which 300ml where ethylene glycol.


Quote:

Makes it into a bit of a game. One in which you have to divide your attention on several things at once. The temp, and how far condensate is traveling along the condenser.


mh for my personal taste i like to automate as many things as possible (things i find boring anyway), and off the grid methods are what i prefer given my situation

zed - 31-3-2018 at 16:47

Hnuh?

Well, back when Water was cheaper and we were not afraid to use it. We usta just turn on the tap and let water run through the condenser and then down the drain. I'm sure they still utilize that technique at most colleges. Expensive and wasteful, but easily done, and no custom equipment required.

You could store your runoff in a barrel, and use it to water your garden later (or wash your dog!). Or, you could use it to water your garden directly.

This motor stuff is new. A good idea, but a new idea.

Why, I think, I first saw the idea here. Seemed like wholesome gobble-de-gook, at the time.

That, of course, was before local water prices began to skyrocket.

Now, my water bill is about 50 dollars a month... Provided, I don't use any water.

Most normal bills run about 100 dollars per person/ per month.

And, the amount of cash that you could send down the drain, doing Chemistry experiments, might be truly astronomical.


Reboot - 1-4-2018 at 12:21

Quote:
Which reaction is it that you have in mind that refluxes from it's own internal heat production?


Nothing in particular; I just assumed you were looking for an 'electricity free' option as a way to cope with potential power failures. Losing power mid-distillation isn't normally a big deal, but losing containment on a hot reflux could be very unfortunate. :-)
Quote:
I'm set on the idea of using some sort of a hand operated pump to run ice cold water from a bucket, through the condenser, and back towards the bucket.


The pump you show should be perfectly capable for small things, although I think you'll need to do more hand pumping than you expect. It's just a rubber bulb with two check valves. Squeeze it to push the fluid out, then it's own resilience/springiness brings it back to it's original shape, in the process drawing more fluid up into the bulb. They aren't capable of a lot of head (height), but with source and output buckets on the same level it would work.
Quote:
Also, how does one determine what pump, or how strong of a pump is needed?


Could you share what you're doing (what your heat source is, how much volume you're dealing with, and what sort of boiling points you expect to work with)? Small refluxes/distillations (powered only by the heat of a common 500 Watt hotplate) with, say, alcohol as the solvent don't need much cooling power. On the other hand, if you want to do a wildly exothermic reduction on the five-liter scale or if you're using a large gas flame as your heat source, you have a much bigger cooling challenge.

zed - 2-4-2018 at 16:10

Ummm. I reconsidered your question. Theoretically, no pump might be required.

Set up properly, coolant might be circulated via siphon-action.

I'll try to find a link. Same principle as utilized in Solar water heaters.

Your cold water reservoir must be higher than your condenser.

Cold water from the bottom of the reservoir, enters the condenser at its bottom. The water is heated via the reflux.

The warmed water rises through the condenser, up through tubing, and it is returned to the top of the cold water reservoir.

This is a "self" pumping system. Driven by the heat/density differential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35ZOYPfk2kc

In your system of course. The heat from your reflux condenser provides the Oomph.



[Edited on 3-4-2018 by zed]

[Edited on 3-4-2018 by zed]

Ubya - 3-4-2018 at 00:00

but how big should be the temperature gradient to make a thermosiphon work?
sure you'll need a really long condenser to keep a reasonable efficiency,

zed - 20-4-2018 at 12:53

In solar water heaters, the set-up works, but it isn't a gimme.

Apparently, the reservoir must be set a certain amount higher than the collecting element, and of course... there must be a certain degree of temperature differential. Might even be helpful if the water supply conduits, were insulated.

A great engineer should be able to apply sophisticated mathematical formulas, to calculate out, all of the important variables, and design a perfect system. Such a system, might or might not work.

Personally, I'm gonna try tinkering with a siphon system. Cheap enough.

Requires a reservoir, some ice/water, and some tubing.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://i5.walmartimage...

Though a bigger size might be helpful.



[Edited on 20-4-2018 by zed]

[Edited on 20-4-2018 by zed]

[Edited on 20-4-2018 by zed]