Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Perchlorate manufacture (not) with Graphite

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dann2 - 24-9-2007 at 10:03

Hello,

Would Tungsten do?
It is a 'valve' metal and is OTC as it is used for welding electrodes in TIG welders. It cost about 3 bucks for an electrode that is 3mm my about 6 inches long.
Hot HCl does not etch the stuff. I think you need to attach + power it when imerced in the HCl to get rid of any oxide.

Dann2

12AX7 - 24-9-2007 at 13:02

The point of titanium is that it harmlessly anodizes under perchlorate conditions, no? Whereas any other metal, and graphite, corrodes to hell under the same stress where plating is not quite complete.

Tim

dann2 - 25-9-2007 at 08:41

Hello,

All the valve metals anodize under similar conditions.

Ta, Hf, Zr, W, Ti. Ti is the cheapest is sensible sizes and dimensions.
W as a rod for welding (TIG) is OTC.

The others are hard to get/expensive.

Dann2

franklyn - 6-11-2007 at 00:46

Alternatives to Platinum or graphite anodes which could be investigated

Radiant space heaters have pyroelectric ceramic resistors of lead titanate among
others , collectively known as Perovskites these characteristicaly resist oxidation.

Furnace hot surface ignitors are electric glow plug resistors made of
semiconducting silicon carbide or silicon nitride will run 25 dollars and up.
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewcategory.cfm?categoryID=10
http://www.furnacepartsplus.com/Furnace-Parts-Ignitors/c1_11...


Electrically conductive sintered alpha silicon carbide:
It is a dense type of SiC, it has superior resistance to oxidation, corrosion,
wear, and to chemical attacks. The single phase SiC also has high strength,
and good thermal conductivity.

Properties Data
Density (g/cm3) >3.05
Vickers hardness (at 1 Kg) 2400
Flexural strength (MPa)Room temperature800oC1200oC1500oC 395403405400
Young’s modulus (GPa) 390
Compression strength (MPa) 4100
Fracture toughness (MPa) 4.5
Thermal conductivity (W/m oK) 100-120
Thermal expansion (10-6/ oK) 4.0
Specific heat (J/g oK) 0.6-0.7
Electrical resistivity (ohm-cm) 0.5-20
Bend creep @ 1000oC and 200MPa for 1000hrs No detectable creep

The process used to prepare this type of carbide is done by hot pressing,
cold forming, and by electrically conductive sintering. This carbide is wear
and corrosion resistance, and can withstand chemical attacks. General
applications for this type of carbide are grinding media, seal rings, high
power resistors, induction heating susceptor, and as burners and crucibles.

.

chloric1 - 6-11-2007 at 02:57

maybe it will resist attack but it does not mean it will promote the oxidation of chlorate neither. It would be a good excercise to put this in a chlorate cell with 700 grams per liter just to see what happens.

What might be worth noting is these may be good substrates for PbO2 given they resist oxidation at the substrate/ PbO2 interface.

dann2 - 6-11-2007 at 13:20

Hello,

The resistance might be too high.
The resistivity of the stuff is given as 0.5 ohm cm
If you had a piece 1cm square by 10cm long it would have a resistance(end to end) of 5 ohms. I suppose thats managable....or is it.

Can the stuff be had in pieces this size?

Dann2

Xenoid - 11-11-2007 at 14:58

Hmmm.....! Not quite sure which thread to post this in anymore. People have been generating too many chlorate / perchlorate / electrode threads lately. This perchlorate thread seems most appropriate.

Well, I've just finished another perchlorate run with my Palloys platinised titanium electrode. I'll post up the processing of the perchlorate run separately, as I get around to it. For this latest run I used about 850g of moist recrystallised NaClO3. I couldn't be bothered drying it, I am guessing there was about, say, 700g of actual NaClO3. I used just about all my remaining chlorate from the bottom of several bags. This would all have been recrystallised at least twice previously, so we are talking about quite pure (low chloride) chlorate here. The chlorate was dissolved in 1 litre of boiling water and allowed to cool to about 30 oC. No crystals separated, so it wasn't quite saturated. The volume of this solution was now about 1.4 litres. I put this in my 1.5 litre cell and topped it up with a bit of saturated NaClO3 solution.

The cell was run at 8 Amps (5.5V), but the power supply failed after about 20 hours (see the PSU thread) and I switched to a normal 5V computer SMPS, this resulted in a current of only about 6.5 Amps. The cell temperature reached a maximum of 48 oC on the 8 Amps, but most of the time was about 40 oC. During the run I didn't notice any drop in current, other than when the temperature decreased overnight.
With this run, and after a little additional reading, but against my better instincts I decided to add a little K dichromate. I have never added any additives to my chlorate or perchlorate cells before! I added about 1/5 of a teaspoon of powder. Playing it safe this time, the cell was run for about 660 Ah.

I have attached some images to show the electrode assembly at the end of this run:

Image 1: Overall view, showing two 9.5mm Ti cathodes and inner platinised titanium mesh anode. The mesh is 9cm x 3cm and is spot welded to a Ti strap. The Ti strap on the original electrode is about 6cm longer, I had to cut it off to fit in my cell. Note discolouration of the Ti cathodes and a bit of white deposit. There is quite a bit of floc floating around in the cell, I think it is Ti hydroxide from the cathodes.

Image 2. Close up view of the platinised Ti, the variation of grey colour seems to be a photographic effect. To the naked eye, the platinised surface just looks the same as when I started the run. Perhaps a little mottling here and there. Note the shiny Ti strap.

Image 3. Grey PVC lid and electrode supports. The SS screw and washer are starting to show a little corrosion now. This manifested itself in the form of brown crud on the headspace part of the Ti strap. This brown crud scratched off easily with a fingernail. The epoxy holding in the Ti cathodes is now pretty well bleached and is starting to crack. There was a little "salt creep" appearing on the top of the lid during this run. They will have to be replaced. The PVC is still pretty much unaltered even after 3 runs.

Image 4. The other side of the platinised Ti anode, starting to get a little thin film oxide coating below liquid level. Note discolouration of Ti cathodes at the liquid level and below.

All in all, I am well pleased with the performance of my platinised Ti anode - SO FAR!

Regards, Xenoid

Electrodes.jpg - 92kB

dann2 - 11-11-2007 at 16:19

Hello Xenoid,

Looks good, yill be coating it with Lead Dioxide yit, I tell ye :D

Did you ever find out what is the thickness of Pt on the electrode?

Dann2

Xenoid - 11-11-2007 at 16:22

Here's an image of the perchlorate cell in operation, about halfway through the run. It's operating at 5 Volts / 6.5 Amps. Note dark "scummy" build up due to ?? SS corrosion/dichromate/epoxy degradation.

Regards, Xenoid

CellSetup.jpg - 21kB

Xenoid - 11-11-2007 at 16:33

Here's a closeup of the cell. You can see a little chlorate/perchlorate buildup around the left Ti cathode, where the epoxy is starting to leak.

@Dann2 I mentioned the thickness in the platinum coated titanium thread by Antwain (I think it was there). The Indian site describes the thickness as 2 - 20 microns, but it's not clear if this refers to the variation on one electrode, between electrodes, or that is the range that can be manufactured. I don't know the thickness of this electrode.

Maybe I got lucky and this was made on a Monday!! :D

Regards, Xenoid

PercCell.jpg - 20kB

garage chemist - 11-11-2007 at 18:25

Very nice Xenoid, I see that you are going the same way as I was, using essentially pure chlorate with a platinum electrode.

My 0,5mm 25cm Pt wire anode carries a maximum current of 4 Ampere and was slightly cheaper than your Pt/Ti anode.
The obvious advantage of the Pt/Ti anode is that it can carry vastly more current per price due to the higher surface and sturdy electrical connection.
The advantage of a wire anode is that a single run with contaminated chlorate or without dichromate (meaning chlorate reduction at the cathode), e.g. somewhat erosive conditions, would not destroy it like the Pt/Ti anode could well be due to the very thin Pt coating, but just slightly reduce its weight and thickness.

Always use dichromate in such a cell! Chlorate reduction at the cathode is a very real problem in both chlorate and perchlorate cells!

I aim on eventually getting a thin square piece of 90% Pt/ 10% Iridium alloy sheet, or some wire out of this alloy. This alloy markedly exceeds pure platinum in chemical resistance- it is even almost inert to aqua regia, its dissolution only being achievable in reasonable time when it is alloyed with a large amount of base metal first.

But such a platinized Ti anode would be nice too, and probably more affordable.
A question, does the manufacturer offer a recoating service once the Pt coating has worn off? I have heard of manufacturers offering that kind of service.

At the moment, I have no source for a Pt/Ti anode though.

12AX7 - 30-12-2007 at 11:27



Here is my platinum plating cell. The urine-colored liquid is worth about $300; hopefully I can get a few anodes out of this. The cathode is titanium and the anode is graphite. The color is due to PtCl6(2-), with some K+, Na+ and a lot of H+ and Cl- also in solution. The supply voltage is 8V, dropped through 15 ohms, giving 0.44A at a cell voltage of 1.6V. The anode bubbles chlorine gas, while platinum and hydrogen deposit on the cathode in a black layer. This should become a workable matte silver/metallic coating after burnishing and annealing.

Tim

chloric1 - 30-12-2007 at 11:50

Well Tim I am glad you found a good use for an old muriatic acid bottle.:D:D Say what is the concentration of platinum in your bath? Is it 1%? IIRC somewhere that gold is electroplated from a 1% auric chloride solution.

Xenoid - 30-12-2007 at 11:51

Quote:
Originally posted by 12AX7
liquid is worth about $300; hopefully I can get a few anodes out of this..... a workable matte silver/metallic coating after burnishing and annealing.


Yes!... hopefully a few anodes... :D

Did you treat the Ti surface in any way?

What will be your burnishing and annealing process? I've managed to coat some etched Ti with my "Hanovia" platinum paint in a baking process, but the coat appeared very thin, I think it ran for about 12 hours in a perchlorate cell. Unfortunately the baking process needs temperatures around 600 oC to 700 oC. and I believe from one of Dann2's references that there is stress damage to Ti above 500 oC. So don't heat it too much!

12AX7 - 30-12-2007 at 12:06

Yeah, about 1%. That was about 5 grams of assorted Pt salts (under the circumstances, I had no way to measure the total), and in almost a gallon (3.78 l) that's 1.5% or so.

I wet sanded the titanium surface for the most part, and washed with detergent. It wets pretty well ("water should sheet off the surface").

I'm going to torch the metal up to orange heat, 800C or so. Should be enough to get the platinum and titanium to anneal, release hydrogen (thermal stress vs. hydrogen stress? Figures!) and maybe get some diffusion going. The small scale test I did worked out fine, I have some titanium strips with a well-adhering platinum plating. Oddly, those came out of the bath with a matte metallic plating, not this black layer. I wonder if the hydrogen bubbles are causing surface reduction? But, the layer is uniformly black, not in tracks around bubbles or anything. Maybe the pH? I probably have less acid in this bath than otherwise. I dumped about 200ml 10M HCl, which is less than the ~50ml I put in the much smaller test. pH is still in the 1 range though.

Tim

chloric1 - 30-12-2007 at 12:30

Wait a minute Tim there is platinum black catalyst. I think this is nano size platinum deposited on platinum. This may be detrimental or helpful depending on the application. I think catalytic platinum has a lower oxygen overvoltage. Then again you probably could buff it down. Not sure.

Fleaker - 30-12-2007 at 13:30

Yes, the platinized electrode will appear like it's been coated in platinum black. It isn't, it's just the rough nature of the deposit. Upon heating there is a difference, the black color disappears and the coating evens out, with the Pt diffusing into the Ti. Tim mentioned to me that it is a semi-gloss metallic appearance on the early trials, after heating.

Proper pretreatment of the anode is imperative.

Pt black is traditionally done with 1% chloroplatinic acid and .05% lead (II) acetate plating bath. I have the exact recipe if anyone wants it. This K2PtCl6 in HCl is different. Heating a platinum black electrode in a Bunsen flame will still leave a platinum black electrode upon cooling. Pt is extremely difficult to oxidize, even as a fine powder.

12AX7 - 30-12-2007 at 13:30

It seems to burnish well enough. I imagine it could be useful in this condition as a hydrogen electrode.

Two hours per side is up, I've rinsed, fired (to about 600-800C, unevenly) and am now burnishing part of the finish. The overall color is gray, somewhat streaked. It seems to be reasonably adherent, not flaking off in any obvious fashion. Some areas darken the finger when brushed, but it's far from a useless plating.

When I'm done burnishing this area, I'll measure and see how much I put on.

Tim

Xenoid - 30-12-2007 at 14:22

@ Fleaker, 12AX7

Do you know if the plating, annealing process is what is used commercially for platinised Ti electrodes. Or is it a paint based thermal procedure. The electrode I bought certainly has a metallic matt appearance (looks almost etched).

Looks like a good, simple procedure (albeit expensive) for the amateur, it will be interesting to see how many anodes it is feasible to make from a given $$$s worth of solution. I await with bated breath.... :)

12AX7 - 30-12-2007 at 14:49

On further handling, I noticed that one side was prone to flaking while burnishing. The interface may be sensitive to heat, as I had annealed the previous burnishing work. Some spots also made contact with my kaowool blanket, which is contaminated with various salts, such as NaCl. I'm not sure what effect this had, if anything. Annealing to about 900C (orange/yellow color) seems to be not as good. The previously burnished areas seem to be okay, so I suspect burnishing such a dark coating, possibly after a medium annealing, is the best way to go -- next to a smooth plating, that is. I tried wirebrushing the surface, which certainly succeeded in eroding the delaminated layer.

I set up a perchlorate cell, consisting of this platinized anode, my stainless steel cathode / cell, about 2 kg of NaClO3, 5 g K2Cr2O7 and enough water to fill the cell and dissolve the chlorate (some heat was used, to compensate for the cooling effect of dissolving NaClO3). On applying current, a strong off-chlorine odor was noted (residual Cl- oxidizing, or ClO2?). The anode certainly conducts as it should. We'll see how much perchlorate forms, and on a longer scale, how long this anode holds up.

Tim

Fleaker - 30-12-2007 at 17:28

Quote:
Originally posted by Xenoid
@ Fleaker, 12AX7

Do you know if the plating, annealing process is what is used commercially for platinised Ti electrodes. Or is it a paint based thermal procedure. The electrode I bought certainly has a metallic matt appearance (looks almost etched).

Looks like a good, simple procedure (albeit expensive) for the amateur, it will be interesting to see how many anodes it is feasible to make from a given $$$s worth of solution. I await with bated breath.... :)


I'm also impatient. I want to see some damn perchlorate pictures tomorrow ! :-) I think he has very good chances of making perchlorate, he's done it before with the small Ti and gram of K2PtCl6 I sent him about 4 months ago. Why should he not be able to replicate it now?

As for me, I've plated Pt from perchloric acid solutions and hydrochloric acid solutions both with the same results. You get a matte dark finish, upon heating and a little rubbing, you can get a dull shine to them. Qualitatively I know it's not titanium that I'm polishing because when I heat it (about 500C), I do not see the characteristic colourful oxidation bands. Instead, the dark, powdery appearance becomes matte in finish, and just glows. There is no oxidation, proof positive that something is coating the anode. Pt doesn't oxidize in air at any temperature, so I'm assuming that is what it is.


In both situations, I prepped my anode-to-be by hot concentrated HCl, rinse, then let it sit in warm 50% perchloric acid, and took it straight to the cell. I didn't sand it, just gave it acid dip as pretreatment.

I have a feeling that hydrazine sulfate may be quite convenient for a mirror finish (good cosmetically, but it's my hope that it will be resilient). I still feel strongly that you need more than mechanical pretreatment of the surface for good plating. That is why I sent Tim some ammonium bifluoride. I'd have to dig up the references, but I've seen pretreatment protocols in the literature about using hot, 70C NaOH, followed by rinse with dH2O, followed by warm conc. HCl, rinse, then acidified ammonium bifluoride etch, and then a final rinse and into the plating bath. All of this AFTER sanding. They claimed jewelery grade finishes of varying thicknesses. I need to go back to scifinder scholar and request those journal articles and patents.

I really am thinking it's how the pretreatment is carried out that has the most effect on the durability and life of the anode. If it's done right, the Pt coat should last for years. Xenoid's Pt anode that he purchased is slightly reminiscent of what I've made, but mine polished up some to a dull gloss.

12AX7 - 30-12-2007 at 17:46

It's been, oh, about three hours, and the cell is still bubbling away. It seems to be running quite clean right now; the residual graphite (yeah, crude NaClO3) doesn't even seem to be around, I wonder if it settled or oxidized(!). No strong odor from this thing, just vapor coming up around the plastic wadding.

How long will that need, anyway? 2 kg is about 19 mol, and needs 2 e- per, or 53.6 Ah / mol * 19 mol = 1018 Ah. At 30A (seems to be running pretty consistently at 30A so far) that's 34 hours, or about a day and a half, minus losses. About tuesday morning I should have several kilograms of perchlorate.

It occurs to me that this really is pretty simple, and yet it's a big accomplishment as SMDB goes. And the key is just platinum. We really are cheapasses, I guess. :D

Then again, if MnO2 and Co3O4 and stuff work out, hell, those are even cheaper!

Tim

Xenoid - 31-12-2007 at 09:33

Quote:
Originally posted by 12AX7
.... this really is pretty simple, and yet it's a big accomplishment as SMDB goes.


Humble as usual..... ;)

30 amps...! How big is this thing, what current density is that... :o

Spurred on by Tim & Fleaker's apparent success at platinising Ti, I decided to have another go at using my "Hanovia" Pt resin paint. I've used this twice previousy on Ti but it passivated after several hours. I've always been worried about using too high a temperature.

I coated a strip of sanded and etched Ti with 3 layers of paint, hot air drying between coats. The resin was then burned off (spectacular flame effects) using a gas torch and heated to red heat and slowly cooled. This produced the strip shown below, the "rougher" areas had tiny specks of poorly adherent Pt in them, the smoother areas looked quite promising, as though some diffusion had occurred. When put in a perchlorate cell, bubbles evolved from all surfaces, but in constant current mode the voltage was slowly rising and it was obviously passivating. I shut it down after an hour!

I don't know why this resin doesn't work better on Ti, as a similar Engelhard Pt/Ir resin was used extensively in the '60's, until it was found that Pt/IrO2 worked much better and MMO electrodes were developed.

[Edited on 31-12-2007 by Xenoid]

PtonTi.jpg - 5kB

12AX7 - 31-12-2007 at 09:39

Maybe needs a reducing atmosphere?

The electrode is 2" wide by about 8" tall along the plated area, for a surface of about 32 in^2 and current density of 1 A/in^2 or 255 mA/cm^2. I could give it a lot more!

Tim

Xenoid - 31-12-2007 at 09:58

Quote:
Originally posted by 12AX7
Maybe needs a reducing atmosphere?

The electrode is 2" wide by about 8" tall along the plated area, for a surface of about 32 in^2 and current density of 1 A/in^2 or 255 mA/cm^2. I could give it a lot more!

Tim


The resin itself is supposed to create a reducing environment, it burns off with a very smoky flame! It always seems as though most of the Pt ends up as little flakes in the residual burning resin. May be I torched it too fast. The earlier versions which were heated slowly and to a lower temperature, actually had shiny Pt areas, but still had loose flakes.

OK.. ! That's quite BIG, no messing about then!

Oh.. well, back to the pottery chemicals!

12AX7 - 1-1-2008 at 20:53

After a two-day run, today I emptied the cell.

The electrode has become bubbly: clearly, the platinum did NOT make a very good bond. Some areas are still connected, but the whole surface is not covered.

I also prepared an anode at higher current density, finding deposition rate does not depend much on current density. The deposit is still black. It also performed very poorly in mechanical terms, without even exposing it to anodic conditions. Attempts were made to passivate or anodize the exposed areas, with no useful effect.

I tested it in a bromate cell: the areas of exposed titanium corroded rapidly, filling the cell with white hydrous muck. Titanium is listed as incompatible with bromine, so this shouldn't come as much of a suprise. I recommend using graphite, solid platinum or a suitable oxide anode in a bromate cell.

In contrast, the perchlorate cell's titanium substrate is in original condition, minus some flakes of platinum.

I have found that boiling sulfuric acid is somewhat capable of attacking titanium, producing a blue or purple corrosion product which washes off. Boiling-hot 50% NaOH causes a slow darkening of the surface, which can be removed with 3M HCl. Fluoride is capable of etching the surface, and elemental or anodic bromine is capable of heavy pitting. HCl(aq), Cl2 and anodic perchlorate conditions are all inert.

Presumably, I need a combination of one of these corrosive processes to expose titanium, with a levelling agent in the bath to produce bright platinum. I don't know why I'm not getting the bright deposit I did originally.

Edit: Oh, and the cell liquor. I weighed 103.5 g solution and added concentrated KCl solution to it, immediately producing a thick, chalky white precipitate. I will seperate it from KClO3 and determine the concentration gravimetrically, calculate yield, then add a nearly stoichiometric amount of boiling, concentrated KClO3 solution to precipitate KClO4, leaving NaClO3 in solution.

Tim

[Edited on 1-1-2008 by 12AX7]

chloric1 - 2-1-2008 at 03:54

Quote:
Originally posted by 12AX7
I recommend using graphite, solid platinum or a suitable oxide anode in a bromate cell.

Tim

[Edited on 1-1-2008 by 12AX7]


That reminds me, remember reading in US339996 that they recommend not using cobalt bromide as an electrolyte to deposit cobalt oxide anodically. It was something to do with the voltage to break down the bromide being less than 0.7 Volts not allowing the oxide to form. Merk lists Co3O4 as dissolving in HCl with evolution of chlorine. The bromide ion may reduce it to a point that it will dissolve or no longer function.

Since this oxide will be the backbone of our anode design, I am not sure if it can be used for bromate synthesis. Any thoughts on this?

jpsmith123 - 3-1-2008 at 05:24

Sorry to hear the Pt didn't stick. I know the feeling. I wonder if electrocleaning or hydriding of the titanium would've helped?

I was able to plate a thick, nice-looking layer of cobalt onto hydrided Ti, very successfully (it had to be sanded off), but I couldn't do anything with cobalt oxide.

I still think anodically co-deposited Co3O4 and MnO2, followed by baking, is worth a shot, but I don't have a furnace yet, so I unfortunately won't be able to try it in the near future.

garage chemist - 3-1-2008 at 06:33

I remember reading that platinum cannot be electroplated to titanium from aqueous solutions at all.
What I can say for sure is that platinum clad titanium electrodes are made by a molten Pt salt electrolysis at a temperature above 500°C where the oxide layer on titanium is not stable.

jpsmith123 - 3-1-2008 at 06:52

I was able to plate cobalt onto Ti by hydriding it first...and patent #4127709 claims to accomplishe nickel plating on Ti, also by hydriding first.

Fleaker - 3-1-2008 at 13:44

This is what you're referencing:
http://www.finishing.com/4400-4599/4497.shtml
That is ridiculously expensive, but it is a method.

I should like to correct garage chemist on that, it is indeed possible to plate Titanium in aqueous medium with platinum.
It is anode pretreatment that is absolutely essential!!

I sent Tim hydrazine sulfate too, because I remember reading a patent about electroless, jewelery-finish (therefore adherent) platinum plating done hydrazine sulfate. Personally, I don't think he did sufficient etching and from what I've seen and experienced, Ti needs aggressive pretreatment. So in addition to sanding, other chemical etches must be performed, and the anode-to-be kept under water all the time, only being exposed to air as it is transferred to the plating vessel.


Additional references provided to me by a friend on another forum, who is a professional metal plater who also says it's quite possible.

http://www.finishing.com/243/65.shtml

http://www.finishing.com/134/56.shtml

http://www.hikifune.com/english/product/toku/ti.html
( a company that uses a proprietary method to platinize)



Example regimen for pretreatment courtesy of Dr. Trevor Crichton:

"Titanium can also be electrochemically processed by etching in a solution of:
NH4HF 10-40g/l
H2SO4 5%v/v
Temp 20C
Leave for 30 secs or more AFTER gassing starts.

The titanium is then activated in:
HF(40%) 50-70ml/l
HNO3 50-100ml/l
H2O2 100-200ml/l
Temp: RT
Time 5-10 secs

Once activated, the titanium can be strike plated with Woods Nickel. It is essential that NO RINSING takes place between the activation and strike plating. I believe this was documented in Trans. IMF. 1966 p74 "

That is very much in line (as far as pretreatment goes) with what I remember reading. Hence the reasons I sent what I sent to Tim.

[Edited on 3-1-2008 by Fleaker]

jpsmith123 - 4-1-2008 at 05:59

Well I sanded my piece of Ti with 220 grit SiC paper, washed it with detergent solution, cathodized it for 10 minutes at about 50 mA/cm^2 in 10% oxalic acid, and plated it with Co...and I challenge anybody to remove the Co.

dann2 - 20-1-2008 at 10:05

Hello,
The following was posted by DerAlte in another thread. I though I should cut and paste here for completeness.

Dann2


Quote:
Originally posted by DerAlte
To the best of my knowledge, perchlorates CANNOT be produced by the electrolysis of chlorates using carbon as an anode.

I had two samples, produced in 1995. One, labeled Chlorate (call it ‘C’ for short) was produced by electrolysis of saturated NaCl using a carbon anode. Part - the major part – was used by metathesis with KCl to produce KClO3.

The rest was then somewhat purified to get rid of as much NaCl as possible and subjected to further electrolysis, following a convincing sounding procedure “guaranteed” to produce perchlorate (found somewhere on the WWW). I added KCl to the electrolyte at this point order to precipitate any KClO4 so formed. I kept temperature much lower (by reducing current density and ohmic losses) than in the first case, since I assumed the process was a purely electrochemical ion oxidation conversion, with a different cell configuration (wide anode/cathode separation). A precipitate was formed.

This was bottled as ‘KClO4 (impure)’ – call it sample ‘P’. The only use I ever made of this was to demonstrate a few pyrotechnical reactions to my younger son. It seemed less reactive than the sample C.

When Dann called into question its composition, I sought methods available to me to determine this. I did not have conc. H2SO4 available nor Methylene Blue.

Chlorates react with any strong acid to give either Cl2 or ClO2 or a mixture; perchlorates do not, due to the kinetic barrier which accounts for their relatively poor oxidation performance, although the thermodynamics favor it over chlorates.

(1) A test of P with HCl gave off a gas that was either Cl2 or a mix with ClO2, by nose test. Conclusion: P contains Chlorate. This does not definitively say it does not contain perchlorate, however.

(2) Saturated solutions were made of both samples and a drop placed on a microscope slide and allowed to evaporate slowly. Crystallization was observed under X50 mag.

Result: C gave lozenge shaped crystals characteristic of KClO3, plus a few needles. Both of these forms are possible under the monoclinic classification of KClO3, where sides may be unequal but parallel and only one angle is a right angle.

P also gave the same shapes in the main – only one crystal was orthorhombic, where all angles are right angles, but sides unequal (unlike cubic) which is characteristic of KClO4. However, needles were also produced, and perchlorate can also be of the needle form (it is isomorphic with KMnO4, which tends to make needles in my experience).

Conclusion: If there was any perchlorate in P, it was a small amount.

(3) 1.000 g (+- 0.005g) of each of C and P were dissolved in 33.3 mL (+-0.3mL) water at RT – both dissolved. This shows that less than 70% was perchlorate. The solution was so chosen that pure chlorate would be just saturated at 0c. Both solutions were cooled for 3 hrs. in a water bath in a refrigerator to slow the ice melting. One or two small crystals were then seen floating in C; none in P. The P solution was somewhat turbid at the start and a fine white ppt. settled during cooling, but there was very little of it. Examination under magnification showed what looked like particles of a fibre. Non –crystalline.

The conclusion from test 3, (solubility) indicates that not more than 0.25g in solution (<25%) could possibly be perchlorate. Taking account of the common ion effect, even including activity coefficient (from CRC) reduces this to a maximum of 0.063 g (<6.3%).

Overall conclusion: if perchlorate was formed at all, it was probably less than 5%. I was merely oxidizing carbon! Moral: Don’t believe what you see on the web, however convincing. And do some tests, always…

DerAlte


My Cells (plural)

12AX7 - 26-1-2008 at 21:20

Seems proper to put in here, as all three are running perchlorate at the moment.

Put together two new cells last night and tonight. They both consist of 4" steel pipe, well rusted on the inside (and sulfury -- pew!). A 1/8" steel plate was hacksawed to shape (I need a bandsaw...) and welded on. The first one had a pinhole leak after the first pass, while the second was perfectly sealed as welded.

The first one seems to be hogging current; the large cell has cooled down substantially, and is probably running much less current now. The ballast is reading near 1V of drop (corresponding to about 30A total consumption), probably a good point to cut it in half and see if I get more current flowing through them all.

I'll probably set one to perchlorate duty, and the remaining two for chlorate production. That should about balance out.

We'll see where I get by june! ;)

Tim

Electrolysis.jpg - 100kB

jpsmith123 - 27-1-2008 at 05:17

Your cells are running your Pt plated Ti Anode, Tim?

12AX7 - 27-1-2008 at 11:33

Yes, all three of them. At least, what area of the anode *is* plated...

Tim

Intended Use Form

MadHatter - 27-1-2008 at 23:37

I'm still working with PbO2 anodes. Never can seem to make one that doesn't want to
disintegrate in the cell.

A general chemical supplier that I've done business with now wants the intended use form
for KClO3, KClO4, NH4ClO4, and NH4NO3. Now more reason for me to make my own chemicals.
It appears that the CPSC's bullshit is scaring more and more suppliers.

hector2000 - 20-6-2008 at 20:40

There is PbO2 sheet in the car battery May we use of it(for anode)?

12AX7 - 20-6-2008 at 21:11

Read the archives, that PbO2 is not nearly robust enough.

Tim

Lewis - 15-7-2008 at 22:00

I'm not sure if this has been covered, but there are sources of MMO coated Ti anodes out there. There were a few (overpriced) ones on eBay, a supplier in India, and a pyrotechnical company in the States. For everyone looking to go this route (and I would highly recommend it), PM me for details.

These electrodes are stellar choices any way you swing it. They will apparently show no sign of wear after even tens of years if treated well. I can assure you mine have served me well since I purchased them.

As far as what the MMO coating is, I actually have no idea. I didn't inquire, but they sure as hell work wonders on chlorate/perchlorate cells.

Xenoid - 15-7-2008 at 23:47

Quote:
Originally posted by Lewis
I'm not sure if this has been covered, but there are sources of MMO coated Ti anodes out there.


Hmmm...! Yes it has been covered. See the various anode and chlorate/perchlorate threads in Technochemistry. As far as I'm concerned, the ready availability of exotic anodes has just about sounded the death knell for home anode making, other than perhaps PbO2 coated Ti.

Rosco Bodine - 15-7-2008 at 23:56

Here's an interesting coating scheme:P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBpcF8ipqq0&feature=relat...

chloric1 - 16-7-2008 at 14:14

Quote:
Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
Here's an interesting coating scheme:P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBpcF8ipqq0&feature=relat...


Damn it Rosco I got a chubby. Can't concentrate on chemistry....be back later:P:P

Perchlorate from MMO?

dann2 - 20-7-2008 at 06:15

Quote:
Originally posted by Lewis
.....................

As far as what the MMO coating is, I actually have no idea. I didn't inquire, but they sure as hell work wonders on chlorate/perchlorate cells.


Hello Lewis,

Have you actually made Perchlorate with the MMO?
Have you started with Sodium Chlorate (pure or close to pure) or with Sodium Chloride.
How do you purify the Perchlorate (if you do).
All and every detail appreciated.

Cheers,
Dann2

Rosco Bodine - 19-8-2008 at 10:10

Quote:
Originally posted by chloric1
Quote:
Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
Here's an interesting coating scheme:P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBpcF8ipqq0&feature=relat...


Damn it Rosco I got a chubby. Can't concentrate on chemistry....be back later:P:P


:D;) Yeah, that is an example of spray pyrolysis gold coating if I ever saw one.....or maybe she just melted and fused all her jewelry there in a transient moment of sultriness:P There's no hitting that lady with a snowball, as it would simply flash to steam in midflight a foot away from impact:P
kind of like the comet over Tonguska;)

Here's a clip of an earlier appearance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxXPDvs4pDY

Please indulge my off topicness here for art's sake.

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