Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Mercury Sulfide Being Sold as Medicine for Children

So, what you are saying is that, as long as it's not too toxic - and nobody seems sure if it is- then this fraud is OK.
It's fine to exploit the sick- as long as you don't make them much worse.

No, my point is simply that the Chinese are aware of it's dangers, and that here it isn't being sold to the public as a miracle cure. When people take it as a medicine, they understand that it's a poison, and they do so based on their own free will.

Obviously, on eBay it's a different story, but that doesn't change the fact that the seller means no harm.

Mr. Rogers - 2-10-2018 at 15:33

Understand that not all systems of medicine are based on the on the scientific method, nor do they need to be.

Chinese medicine isn't wrong, any more than oil painting or dancing or baseball is "wrong" for lacking a foundation in science. Yes, you can certainly find geometry in oil painting and physics in dancing or baseball. But they're not sciences. Aristotle's methods wouldn't stand modern scientific rigor but there was no mass European extinction until the plague during the middle-ages when the Catholic church was running the show. What we call science now is a philosophy and if you're honest you'll understand this is something that's open to change.

macckone - 3-10-2018 at 13:29

Mercury compounds are effective against a wide range of intestinal issues (disentery and cholera as two examples). Calomel (mercurous chloride) was commonly perscribed for such use. It was also used as an external rub for infections, again effective. However it is quite toxic to the patient, which is why there are better medicines now. So chinese medicine isn't 'wrong' at all. These compounds were used in western medicine too. Traditional chinese medicine has some stuff right. It is sorting the 'bunk' from the 'works' that is difficult. Putting it under your pillow is unlikely to have any effect, including toxic in crystal form.

One interesting use of mercurous chloride was treatment of syphilis. It worked in clearing up the lesions on the male and female genitals. However, it inevitably reoccurred so doctors started prescribing it as a tonic. Since the disease was clearly hiding in the body and mercurous chloride cured it on the surface taking it internally was the obvious next step. But of course mercury is toxic and much of the 'maddness' associated with syphilis can be attributed to the 'cure' rather than the disease.

Mercurochrome was sold in the US until 1998.

woelen - 3-10-2018 at 22:44

I also purchased some cinnaber from a similar chinese source. I received a red powder, which is amazingly dense. So, it really must be cinnaber. If it were some organic compound, then it would have been much more voluminous.

I also read about the use of cinnaber in far east culture. In some parts of China they even put it on their skin to get a red color. This is not for daily use, but as part of some festivity. The toxicity of HgS is very limited, it is even less soluble than sand and glass, also in dilute HCl. So, even if you ingest some, I do not expect any effect on your body. Only if there is intake for a long period of time or exposure on skin for a long period of time I would expect adverse effects.

Tsjerk - 4-10-2018 at 00:10

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

Only if there is intake for a long period of time or exposure on skin for a long period of time I would expect adverse effects.

This is correct, in this article the did a time/dose/effect was determined. This is exactly what I meant with my first post in this thread. There is about one molecule dissolved in a liter of water of saturated solution. I wonder how they determined this though.

10.1155/2012/254582

Attachment: huang2012.pdf (815kB)
This file has been downloaded 408 times

Edit: This is also the reason why there is no LD50 available. There is no oral single lethal dose, unless you choke on it.

[Edited on 4-10-2018 by Tsjerk]

macckone - 4-10-2018 at 08:22

I would be more concerned with breathing the dust than ingestion for the relatively insoluble sulfide. The hydrochloric acid in the stomach will leach some mercury (micrograms? or nanograms?) from the sulfide but unless there is continuous use it isn't going to result in mercury poisoning (WHO limit soluble mercury (Hg⁺² and organomercury) 45ug/day). HgCl was used to treat various illnesses for centuries as was the sulfide. And they were somewhat effective. Apparently yellow fever was treated with mercurous chloride and there is anecdotal evidence that it saved lives. The reason it stopped being used in the us and europe is because we have safer and more effective antibiotics.

ps. soluble mercury is excreted at a rate of 50ug/day via the kidneys which is the reason for the 45ug/day limit.

EPA recommendation is eating fish with less than .16 ug/g which for a 4oz serving is about 18ug.

[Edited on 4-10-2018 by macckone]

DraconicAcid - 4-10-2018 at 12:38

Understand that not all systems of medicine are based on the on the scientific method, nor do they need to be.

Chinese medicine isn't wrong, any more than oil painting or dancing or baseball is "wrong" for lacking a foundation in science. Yes, you can certainly find geometry in oil painting and physics in dancing or baseball. But they're not sciences. Aristotle's methods wouldn't stand modern scientific rigor but there was no mass European extinction until the plague during the middle-ages when the Catholic church was running the show. What we call science now is a philosophy and if you're honest you'll understand this is something that's open to change.

Seriously? Oil painting, dancing and baseball are done for pleasure. Medicine is used to heal people. There's a difference. If I have cancer or a broken arm, I want a method that is proven to work in order to treat it. I'm not going to go to an art museum to try to heal a broken bone, nor will I go dancing, or play baseball, or try balancing my chakras or subluxing my humours and meridians.

unionised - 4-10-2018 at 13:02

Understand that not all systems of medicine are based on the on the scientific method, nor do they need to be.

Chinese medicine isn't wrong,

It's wrong on three related sets of grounds
First; it kills people.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4521244/
Killing people is wrong.

Secondly it kills other (endangered) creatures for no benefit
https://china-underground.com/2018/07/07/traditional-chinese...

And thirdly, it is fraud. it exploits sick people.

Why are you trying to defend the indefensible?

macckone - 4-10-2018 at 14:10

unionized & draconicacid -
Yes, traditional chinese medicine has a lot of hokum.
But under the hokum there are actual treatments.
The challenge is separating the hokum from the real.

In this case mercury compounds do work in certain applications (intestinal and topical antiseptics). But we have less toxic medicines. So this falls in the category of no longer considered safe but isn't complete hokum.

[Edited on 4-10-2018 by macckone]

Amos - 4-10-2018 at 15:55

Studies done with mice fed large amounts of mercuric sulfide have shown little to no sign of clinical toxicity, and if anyone has ever tried to get cinnabar to react via wet chemistry, they know that it is almost completely inert to strong acids and all but very hot concentrated alkalis, which react extremely slowly. You're probably better off worrying about the air and water you're exposed to everyday.

j_sum1 - 4-10-2018 at 16:35

HgS is really insoluble. But that is not the same thing as inert.

If it really is inert in the human body then this treatment cannot have any efficacy. It ranks with amber beads to alleviate symptoms of teething toddlers.

If it is not inert then it must involve introduction of Hg to the body's systems -- something that we know ought to be avoided.
Either way, this is quackery that does not form the basis of sound medical practice -- no matter how long it has been done historically.

I have no problems with sale of cinnabar on ebay. I do have a problem with the promotion of poor practice and even more so when the uptake is through a self-selection process combined with scientific ignorance.
I also have problems with a product being marketed as something it is not. If this indeed is HgS then I would expect a higher price. If it is curcumin or some other such substance then it should not be advertised as cinnabar.

This muddying of the waters does no one any favours -- least of all those who are looking for medical remedies and who lack the scientific nous to distinguish between woo and treatment. Consider someone enthusiastioc about the benefits of curcumin (which they believe to be cinnabar). It is a small step for them to start seeking something related but even more potent "natural" substance that contains soluble mercury compounds.

happyfooddance - 4-10-2018 at 19:28

But can we all agree that the ebay seller is selling red turmeric, not HgS? It even says so in the description (curcuma) and has been explained a couple times in this thread.

j_sum1 - 4-10-2018 at 19:35

But can we all agree that the ebay seller is selling red turmeric, not HgS? It even says so in the description (curcuma) and has been explained a couple times in this thread.

And Joe Average Woo-buyer thinks that turmeruc and cinnabar are the same thing. That is not good.

macckone - 4-10-2018 at 20:33

Mercury compounds don't fall under the category of 'woo'. Yes mercuric sulfide is relatively insoluble. It is not zero solubility. But mercury is only cumulative if you exceed 50ug/day as previously explained. Today we have better medicine as has also been previously explained. Mercuric sulfide and mercurous chloride did have actual medical uses when we didn't have better medicine. And if significant antibiotic resistance becomes the norm instead of the exception, we may find ourselves using mercury and borate compounds as antibiotics again.

As for what is actually being sold, it isn't relevant to the discussion of rather we need to examine Chinese medical practices for actual cures and try to separate the woo from the science. It also is not relevant to the effectiveness of mercury compounds as antibiotics.

Mr. Rogers - 4-10-2018 at 20:54

Traditional Chinese medicine isn't used to treat acute conditions like a heart attack or broken bones - it's focused on preventative care.

If you have a stroke in China they're taking you to the ER. TCM is just a different philosophical approach to medicine, many of which certainly existed and were practiced before the age of reason to a high degree of success.

[Edited on 5-10-2018 by Mr. Rogers]

Mr. Rogers - 4-10-2018 at 21:02

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

I have no problems with sale of cinnabar on ebay.

That's good, because a lot of other people here complain constantly about not being able to get certain chemicals, then complain about personal peeves sold on Ebay (OMG MERCURY AND ARSENIC!!! -- REPORTED!!!!).

[Edited on 5-10-2018 by Mr. Rogers]

Mr. Rogers - 4-10-2018 at 21:35

Understand that not all systems of medicine are based on the on the scientific method, nor do they need to be.

Chinese medicine isn't wrong,

We have charlatans in the West peddling all kinds of fraudulent treatments for everything from cancer to weight loss to zits. These things are not exclusive to any particular culture or system of medicine. Turn your TV on at 2AM in the morning.

"The problem with the police force is we have to recruit from the human race".

-- Officer Joe Friday.

[Edited on 5-10-2018 by Mr. Rogers]

j_sum1 - 4-10-2018 at 22:26

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

Mercury compounds don't fall under the category of 'woo'.

No, but this does:

Quote:

can be placed under the pillow or bed sheets, can play a sedative role, so that children can sleep safely, no longer crying.

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

As for what is actually being sold, it isn't relevant to the discussion of [or?] rather we need to examine Chinese medical practices for actual cures and try to separate the woo from the science.

Sure it's relevant. I see three problems here:

The selling of items with misleading or false descriptions.
The promotion of something as therapeutic when this is not scientifically backed: in this case (a) claiming a soothing effect for cinnabar treatment (unsubstantiated) and (b) claiming therapeutic benefit from being in proximity to the material.
Possible cavalier attitude towards Hg compounds by the buying public because of scientific illiteracy and misleading communication.

Then there is also the possible issue of purity (in the case that it is cinnabar). The naturally-occurring ore can contain mercury sulfide-chlorides as well as just HgS. I don't know the properties of these but I think it an unreasonable assumption to think that the risk profile is the same as the sulfide.

The whole situation seems to me to be quite messy. I don't believe that it is in anyone's best interest to have turmeric, sold as cinnabar, to be placed under bed-sheets, to placate children. There is nothing in that scheme that is in any way justified.

Mr. Rogers - 4-10-2018 at 22:45

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

No, but this does:

Quote:

can be placed under the pillow or bed sheets, can play a sedative role, so that children can sleep safely, no longer crying.

I think this is a case of two people talking past each other --

"Sedative role" is allegorical language. It's like a new-ager talking about "raising energy". The scientist would (rightfully) demand a physicist come into the room with instrumentation and try to measure this seemingly meaningless phenomenon. What is really being referred to, by the practitioner, is a sensation observed by people who practice mediation, of vibrations experienced in the body during these exercises. It's a real phenomenon, but it's experiential, not objective. But that doesn't mean these sensations aren't really experienced. There's no way to objectively measure this, and there's no coherent way to communicate this phenomenon to an objectivist.

Mr. Rogers - 4-10-2018 at 22:51

You should look at the work of C. J. Jung who developed his ideas on personality typing based on Aristotelian philosophy, which eventually became the (discredited) philosophy of Meyers and Briggs, and has been recently re-evaluated and given a second consideration under a more rigorous lens --

https://science.slashdot.org/story/18/09/18/2058226/people-t...

OldNubbins - 4-10-2018 at 23:05

Caveat emptor

If you cannot 'caveat' then maybe the world would be a better place?

We managed to reduce or eliminate human evolution through the miracle of modern medicine. However, humans manage to find new ways to kill themselves and each other (poor diet, fast cars, handheld electronics, etc.). For the sake of evolution, maybe the fear mongers and safety commandos can take a step back and let nature do its thing.

j_sum1 - 4-10-2018 at 23:18

[edit] @ Mr Rogers

Same problem. There is not a linearity between objective scientific observation and justified conclusion leading to viable treatments.

There may be elements of validity along the way. And certainly some features that warrant closer investigation. But the theory as a whole is flawed.

Let's unpack the various implicit and explicit claims here:

Turmeric is the same as cinnabar.

The substance has therapeutic benefit.

The specific benefit is as a sedative suitable for children.

The benefit is imputed via proximity to the material.

All of these claims are dubious at best. And it only requires one to be factually incorrect for a treatment scheme to be fallacious.
Unfortunately, the gullible public may seize on any one of these claims, assume it is correct, and extrapolate from there to practices that are in fact dangerous.

I am not disputing that there may be some antibiotic properties of Hg compounds. Nor am I suggesting that traditional practices are devoid of any validity. What I am saying is that this particular treatment is unscientific. The adoption of any of the espoused ideas by scientifically illiterate people has a reasonable chance of leading to harm. The promotion of this product in this fashion is riddled with falsities. Therefore this marketing is reprehensible.

[Edited on 5-10-2018 by j_sum1]

Mr. Rogers - 4-10-2018 at 23:30

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

[edit] @ Mr Rogers

Same problem. There is not a linearity between objective scientific observation and justified conclusion leading to viable treatments.

There may be elements of validity along the way. And certainly some features that warrant closer investigation. But the theory as a whole is flawed.

Let's unpack the various implicit and explicit claims here:

Turmeric is the same as cinnabar.

The substance has therapeutic benefit.

The specific benefit is as a sedative suitable for children.

I certainly wouldn't put HgS in my kids crib.

But I think the chance of some random person stumbling on this auction and following through on this "advice" is basically zilch. If you don't know what cinnabar is, you're not looking for it in the first place, and the people that are, aren't buying it for that reason.

It was found *precisely* because someone on a chemistry forum was looking for mercury compounds, then became outraged when they found them.

All this outrage and panic really serves to do is get one of the best avenues for chemicals shut down when people complain to Ebay about what are really non-issues in the first place.

The person selling this isn't coming from a position of malicious intent. There's just cultural differences and again, I think it's a lot of people talking past each other.

[Edited on 5-10-2018 by Mr. Rogers]

Mr. Rogers - 4-10-2018 at 23:52

Anyhow, it's easy to determine if your HgS is tumeric.

If you got bunk chems, complain to the seller or Paypal and they'll refund your money. As a seller I can assure you both of these entities favor the buyer.

[Edited on 5-10-2018 by Mr. Rogers]

This topic should be relocated - to detritus.

Sulaiman - 5-10-2018 at 00:54

The item category :

Crafts>Multi-Purpose Craft Supplies>Other Multi-Purpose Crafting

The item title :

10/30g Natural Powdered Cinnabar Pigment Powder Evil Talisman Taoists

If you buy cinnabar pigment for crafts, what do expect - toxic mercury compounds ?
... turmeric/curcuma.
________________
Then there is the description :

Specification: 100% Brand new and high quality
Material: Cinnabar Powder
Color: Red
Features: Curcuma can be placed under the pillow or bed sheets, can play a sedative role, so that children can sleep safely, no longer crying.

The claimed benefits of Curcuma ... why Curcuma if selling HgS ?

Many pigments are named due to the colour, not the ingredients.

Did anyone buy the product and find it did not work as a pigment,
or found it ineffective against Taoist magic,
or it did not help your child to sleep safely without crying ?

Last but not least,
a competent SM member has previously reported on the lack of mercury in this type of product.

How embarrassing to have one SM member email their national Health and Safety people on this issue and another report it to eBay

[Edited on 5-10-2018 by Sulaiman]

Mr. Rogers - 5-10-2018 at 01:13

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman

Specification: 100% Brand new and high quality

That's disappointing, actually, because I prefer my mercury to be finely aged, like a good port.

unionised - 5-10-2018 at 02:15

We have charlatans in the West peddling all kinds of fraudulent treatments for everything from cancer to weight loss to zits.

[Edited on 5-10-2018 by Mr. Rogers]

Nobody said it was.

What does that have to do with the issue?
Are you saying that people claiming to be Chinese should be permitted to poison people because it's traditional?

unionised - 5-10-2018 at 02:28

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman

The claimed benefits of Curcuma ... why Curcuma if selling HgS ?

[Edited on 5-10-2018 by Sulaiman]

Why claim "bath salts" or "plant food" if selling synthetic cannabinoids?
Maybe it's because people want to buy stuff that's banned.

Also, curcuma isn't red, so the one thing we can be fairly sure from the picture is that the stuff's not curcuma unless it has been adulterated with something.

The point remains, even if the stuff isn't HgS or anything else that's significantly toxic, they still shouldn't be selling it as a sedative for kids, because that's fraud

Tsjerk - 5-10-2018 at 03:14

Quote: Originally posted by OldNubbins

Caveat emptor
We managed to reduce or eliminate human evolution through the miracle of modern medicine.

That is not true. We changed the original direction of evolution. The fact the genetic pool is changing means it is evolving. Evolution actually does say something about the direction of genetic pool change, namely it is changing in a way that benefits survival in a new environment.

Changing the environment like modern medicine is doing apparently gives some genes a better chance for survival. We didn't stop evolution, we changed its direction.

Elrik - 5-10-2018 at 10:03

...curcuma isn't red, so the one thing we can be fairly sure from the picture is that the stuff's not curcuma unless it has been adulterated with something...

Red curcuma is a very common thing in cooking and ceremonial body art. Old chem books will tell you about 'curcuma papers' as pH papers. Yellow for acid, red for base. In cooking and bindi turmeric powder is processed with food grade lime to turn it red.

DraconicAcid - 5-10-2018 at 10:29

You're right- it is just like a new ager talking about "energies". It's all made-up crap with no basis in anything other than "precious feelings" and "ancient principles" (conveniently created in the 60s). Also, they both do very well at curing things that generally get better on their own, and are useless for actual medical problems.

Neither deserves to be called "medicine" by anyone who claims to have any idea about science or chemistry.

Mr. Rogers - 5-10-2018 at 10:58

The same words are just used differently between science and other practices.

That's where a lot of this misunderstanding stems from. TCM and languages like Chinese and Arabic tend to use single words in an allegorical fashion to describe more complex concepts. When these terms come over to English, they're translated literally and the underlying concepts loose their meaning.

Something like "raising energy" doesn't mean the same thing to a physicist as it would to a yoga practitioner - ie. a meditative state in which physical vibrations are experienced in the body. The yoga practitioner, when they speak of energy isn't talking about a motivational force of work or heat. It's the linguistic stuff which really trips this up.

Mr. Rogers - 5-10-2018 at 11:07

Neither deserves to be called "medicine" by anyone who claims to have any idea about science or chemistry.

A good example --

Native Americans use the term "medicine" in a completely different context than what a physician would consider medicine (diagnosing or treating physical illness).

For example, a medicine wheel is a sort of monument used for spiritual practices. If a Native American would come down with an illness, they wouldn't go to a medicine wheel but would seek out a physician, and might receive "medicine" in the form of a pharmaceutical.

Obviously this doesn't mean Native Americans don't believe in "medicine" in the modern context. It just means, these words can have different and sometimes contradictory meanings across different languages or cultures.

[Edited on 5-10-2018 by Mr. Rogers]

DraconicAcid - 5-10-2018 at 11:51

Neither deserves to be called "medicine" by anyone who claims to have any idea about science or chemistry.

A good example --

Native Americans use the term "medicine" in a completely different context than what a physician would consider medicine (diagnosing or treating physical illness).

What you mean is, most First Nation languages use the same word for "magic" and "medicine". That doesn't mean that people speaking English should mix up the terms or consider them synonymous.

Mr. Rogers - 5-10-2018 at 12:00

Neither deserves to be called "medicine" by anyone who claims to have any idea about science or chemistry.

A good example --

Native Americans use the term "medicine" in a completely different context than what a physician would consider medicine (diagnosing or treating physical illness).

What you mean is, most First Nation languages use the same word for "magic" and "medicine". That doesn't mean that people speaking English should mix up the terms or consider them synonymous.

I think you're being deliberately obtuse and condescending now. Nobody is saying that our current understanding of medicine is "magic" (except for Paul Simon).

Sometimes other languages and concepts from other cultures just don't have a 1:1 correlation.

DraconicAcid - 5-10-2018 at 12:21

Oh, the condescension is deliberate. Putting lumps of cinnabar or any other magic crystal under someone's pillow so that the vibrations or quantum energies can heal them is a form of magic, not medicine of any kind, even if the same word is used to describe it in other cultures or languages.

To say that it's perfectly valid medicine (but just culturally different) is simply wrong. Just like Deepak Chopra is wrong when he says that physicists misuse the word "quantum", and that they should be using it the way that *he* uses it.

But since this is a chemistry forum, and not a medical or quantum mechanical one- do you have any allegorical chemistry to share with us? Some insights into chemistry that can only be found through a cultural lens that accepts yogic energy, which will produce results unrecognized by our objectivist minds?

weilawei - 5-10-2018 at 12:41

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman

If you buy cinnabar pigment for crafts, what do expect - toxic mercury compounds ?

Absolutely, I expect toxic compounds. Have you ever worked with oil paints or mixed your own ink? The history of pigments is littered with examples of brilliant, but toxic, compounds.

I'm not going to rehash my points or those of unionised, j_sum1, or DraconicAcid. They've been made ad nauseum. Still, this topic belongs in this forum, not detritus. This is about as on-topic as you can get. It's a legal and societal issue surrounding the promotion and sale of chemicals.

Mr. Rogers - 5-10-2018 at 13:26

But since this is a chemistry forum, and not a medical or quantum mechanical one- do you have any allegorical chemistry to share with us?

Oh I sure do.

I can talk about Green Lions, and Red Kings and Philosopher's Wool, and Powder of Algaroth, and Jupiter.

Or... can I talk about FeSO4, or S, or ZnO or SbOCl or Sn.

How about Royal Water????

morganbw - 5-10-2018 at 13:28

Dang,

This thread really says a lot while at the same time says nothing.
I have read so many times that to make a mercury spill safe use sulfur.

Today I read that cinnabar/mercury sulfide is a scary poison. Who would have thought?

I do not see any reason to buy cinnabar in the near future but if I do I have made an internal commitment to (if some of it is powdered) to sprinkle some under my pillow and see how I sleep.

A person should not go through life scared of a rock.

MrHomeScientist - 5-10-2018 at 13:33

But since this is a chemistry forum, and not a medical or quantum mechanical one- do you have any allegorical chemistry to share with us?

He said allegorical, not alchemical.

Mr. Rogers - 5-10-2018 at 13:35

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

But since this is a chemistry forum, and not a medical or quantum mechanical one- do you have any allegorical chemistry to share with us?

He said allegorical, not alchemical.

Those alchemical terms *are* allegorical.

macckone - 5-10-2018 at 21:18

morganbw: some rocks you should be scared of. Don't put molten lava under your pillow. Also don't put radioactive ore under your pillow. Cinnabar isn't likely to kill you. Especially if it is tumeric.

happyfooddance - 5-10-2018 at 21:56

Quote: Originally posted by weilawei

Still, this topic belongs in this forum, not detritus. This is about as on-topic as you can get. It's a legal and societal issue surrounding the promotion and sale of chemicals.

The point that many others have made is that no, the thread is not on topic, the title of the thread is

Mercury Sulfide Being Sold as Medicine for Children

NOWHERE IN THAT AD DOES IT SAY MERCURY SULFIDE. IT SAYS "CINNABAR" WHICH TO MANY CULTURES MEANS TURMERIC THAT IS TREATED WITH A BASE. WHY SHOULD THESE CULTURES STOP CALLING THEIR CINNABAR "CINNABAR" because some bafoons think they're selling mercury based on their own incomplete knowledge of chemical and spice nomenclature?

You say it's on topic: I say that UNLESS SOMEONE ACTUALLY POSTS AN INSTANCE OF MERCURY SULFIDE BEING SOLD AS MEDICINE TO CHILDREN, this topic is completely fit for detritus

wg48 - 5-10-2018 at 23:29

Quote: Originally posted by weilawei

Still, this topic belongs in this forum, not detritus. This is about as on-topic as you can get. It's a legal and societal issue surrounding the promotion and sale of chemicals.

The cinnabar I purchased was listed in category:
Collectables>Rocks, Fossils & Minerals>Crystal.

My claim for a refund was based on it not being a mineral.

happyfooddance - 6-10-2018 at 01:09

Quote: Originally posted by wg48

The cinnabar I purchased was listed in category:
Collectables>Rocks, Fossils & Minerals>Crystal.

My claim for a refund was based on it not being a mineral.

I could understand then why you would think it might have been HgS.

I think they should change their listing category, but I don't believe they should be prohibited from calling their product cinnabar, if that is what it is known as to people looking for it.

Of course, I would be against Mercury Sulfide Being Sold as Medicine for Children. But so far I have only seen Turmeric Being Called Cinnabar, and outrage at the thought that people are being duped into buying useless spices.

The only problem is, turmeric is not impotent. As chemists, unionised and DraconicAcid should know that there are a huge amount of organic chemicals that serve biochemical functions, even in trace amounts. Not just many but nearly all spices contain in their essential oils at least a few compounds which have significant biological activity. Many times it is a major fraction. Fairly often these compounds have multiple potential uses and effects that go undiscovered for a long time, even though they've been "studied" many times, and even though you can get easily get analytical standards for many of these obscure compounds from multiple chemical suppliers.

I hate the snake oil salesman as much as you guys do, trust me on that! I might have a type of faith in nature, but it is bolstered by science, not beset by it.

Behold, the power of curcuma:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4180255/

unionised - 6-10-2018 at 03:07

Curcuma paper was usually used in the detection of borates.
However, even in the presence of alkalies, the ground root of turmeric is not the bright orange/ red colour depicted in the advert.
So, it's fake, fake or fake.

happyfooddance - 6-10-2018 at 03:57

Pathetically easy to rebut, but here ya go.

Turmeric root+H20+CaO = Cinnabar

DraconicAcid - 6-10-2018 at 09:24

But since this is a chemistry forum, and not a medical or quantum mechanical one- do you have any allegorical chemistry to share with us?

Sure, you can use alchemical names (and don't forget lapis infernalis, aqua fortis, spritis of hartshorn, or spirits of the red dragon). That changes nothing, other than to make it more complicated for the beginner. But do these names give us any insight into their chemistry beyond what their systematic names do? Will they help you with any discoveries that us objectivists might have missed?

S.C. Wack - 6-10-2018 at 12:03

Would a reasonable, responsible person spend $2 then actually receive and find Hg in any form, or not, BEFORE saying jack to anyone, regardless?

[Edited on 6-10-2018 by S.C. Wack]

fusso - 6-10-2018 at 12:28

Detritus.

unionised - 6-10-2018 at 12:38

Pathetically easy to rebut, but here ya go.

Turmeric root+H20+CaO = Cinnabar

Thanks for proving my point about the stuff in the advert not being the right colour for basified turmeric. Here they are superimposed

As I said "However, even in the presence of alkalies, the ground root of turmeric is not the bright orange/ red colour depicted in the advert."

This might be ironically relevant.
"As turmeric and other spices are commonly sold by weight, the potential exists for powders of toxic, cheaper agents with a similar color to be added, such as lead(II,IV) oxide, giving turmeric an orange-red color instead of its native gold-yellow"

From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turmeric

[Edited on 6-10-18 by unionised]

fusso - 6-10-2018 at 12:44

Pathetically easy to rebut, but here ya go.

Turmeric root+H20+CaO = Cinnabar

Thanks for proving my point about the stuff in the advert not being the right colour for basified turmeric. Here they are superimposed

As I said "However, even in the presence of alkalies, the ground root of turmeric is not the bright orange/ red colour depicted in the advert."

This might be ironically relevant.
"As turmeric and other spices are commonly sold by weight, the potential exists for powders of toxic, cheaper agents with a similar color to be added, such as lead(II,IV) oxide, giving turmeric an orange-red color instead of its native gold-yellow"

From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turmeric

[Edited on 6-10-18 by unionised]

Wet stuff usually have a darker colour. Is the basified turmeric wet?

happyfooddance - 6-10-2018 at 12:50

You are pathetically desperate to save face.

My picture shows a moist paste, not a dry powder.

You must really fancy yourself smart, but you're only fooling yourself.

unionised - 6-10-2018 at 12:58

You are pathetically desperate to save face.

My picture shows a moist paste, not a dry powder.

You must really fancy yourself smart, but you're only fooling yourself.

Before I posted about the colour I tried the effect of ammonia gas on turmeric (I was aiming to avoid the issue you have raised).
The result was the same- it's simply the wrong colour. I didn't bother to post it because I figured anyone who cared would do a similar experiment (as you did).

And I was pretty sure they would get the same result- turmeric is a brownish red, rather than an orange one.
You did get pretty much the same result as I did- it's not the colour of the stuff in the advert. Yet you seem to have tried to claim that makes me somehow wrong.

Now, what was that about "You are pathetically desperate to save face."?

happyfooddance - 6-10-2018 at 13:09

Directly from the ebay ad (also from common sense):

"2.The colors may be a little difference for the different monitors displays, please understand."

unionised - 6-10-2018 at 13:17

Directly from the ebay ad (also from common sense):

"2.The colors may be a little difference for the different monitors displays, please understand."

I am intrigued.
I posted a picture of the two things superimposed.
How are you viewing them on "different monitors"?

THere's a fair bit of variability between cameras but most sellers will take care to get a fairly close match (even if they have to add disclaimers to account your your monitor)

happyfooddance - 6-10-2018 at 14:14

Went from "Mercury Sulfide Being Sold as Medicine for Children" to "Pigments Being Sold on eBay that Don't Match Product Image".

I still want you to tell me what the issue is with this seller using the term "cinnabar" to describe their product to potential customers who might search for that term, that is well within their right to do so.

j_sum1 - 6-10-2018 at 14:51

On the subject of language and definitions...
How the hell did the word "cinnabar" get used for curcumin"? That is not traditional Chinese.
It might be an old practice. But that does not make it correct. It is misleading. Perpetuating falsities helps no one.
(I know that Google is not the standard here. But a search of "cinnabar?" does not have anything turmeric-related on the first several pages. If this alternative definition is a thing then it is not a prominent one. I am calling deception.)

In this case there is ambiguity – deliberately so. The picture looks like HgS. The words say turmeric. That alone is enough for a complaint on eBay.

On the subject of efficacy of the substance as a treatment...
Mercury compounds do have some effects although there are much better modern options.
Curcumin also has medicinal effects. But, critically, these are not the same as mercury compounds.
Conflating the two is not ethical. Most of the time a drug switch such as this would be termed malpractice.

On the subject of the efficacy of the treatment method...
Unless there is something volatile in the substance, this procedure is sheer quackery. I know it is legal to promote these kinds of things but in a scientific community we are the ones who should be calling people out for such nonsense.

On the subject of safety...
If the substance supplied is curcumin then it is relatively harmless: short of ingesting a large quantity.
If the substance supplied is HgS then again it is probably quite benign. But consumers should be aware that they are handling a mercury compound.
If the substance is poorly identified then all bets are off. Lead compounds, other mercury compounds, who knows what could conceivably be in there. I would not be trusting it.
It might still be useful – but whether this usefulness is for flavouring a curry or for making amalgums – I have no clue. And that is not a good start point.

On the bigger picture – the effect of this kind of marketing...
Your experience may be different but I regularly encounter people who adopt all kind of ridiculous ideas in relation to diet, medical treatment and other health matters. And I am not talking New-Age loonies here. Rather it is people possessing a decent portion of confirmation bias who have gotten hooked on some fad or other. There is an absence of scientific literacy. There is a lack of discernment in evaluating claims that people make. This is made worse when there is ambiguity over terminology. Unravelling the mess is made even more difficult in the face of language imprecision.
I have noticed also that there is a tendency to pick and choose from the fads available; again without much discernment. If "cinnabar" means any red, powdered pigment, and curcumin is promoted for numerous health benefits, and a person feels freedom to mix and match what they believe will be therapeutic for them, and their starting point is a mercury salt... then there is significant potential for harm.

I think I have some responsibility to call people out on their stupidity.

S.C. Wack - 6-10-2018 at 16:38

3. bright red; vermilion.

Speaking of vermilion...

Apparently no one googled cinnabar root or Indian cinnabar. Perhaps the Chinese might name things of such a color cinnabar?

What if the item comes with full details and directions? Even if someone buys some the thread will go on for pages.

unionised - 7-10-2018 at 03:00

I still want you to tell me what the issue is with this seller using the term "cinnabar" to describe their product to potential customers

It isn't cinnabar.

Would you like to buy this gold?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brass-Shim-1-off-6-x-12-x-015/232...

wg48 - 7-10-2018 at 04:32

Curiously the seller that sold me cinnabar as a fake mineral has a new ad up again in the category of a mineral but only describes it as cinnabar. The pictures are different. See below

I was not able to post the other pics so here is the link
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2g-Natural-Red-Cinnabar-Single-Cr...

99p for 2g of what ever it is LOL

[Edited on 7-10-2018 by wg48]

happyfooddance - 7-10-2018 at 09:54

Some of these are reasonable concerns but they miss the point.

First off, anybody buying anything using a pigment name (vermillion, ultramarine, verdigris, etc) ought always look for something more specific to make sure they are getting the right product. I.E., don't expect to get HgS unless it says mercury sulfide or HgS.

But most importantly, anytime anybody is using any spice or essential oil or food or whatever, it is their responsibility to learn about what they are using, especially when using things medicinally. Do you know how many people die from using essential oils? Far more than die from HgS, guaranteed.

I wouldn't be surprised if the LD50 of red cinnabar root was lower than that of HgS.

I don't understand who is the victim? People being sold medicine that doesn't work? If you are sick and you start randomly googling and end up at that eBay ad and you buy it and it doesn't heal you, I see that as a logical consequence of a bad series of decisions. You could also call it natural selection. But if you buy it hoping for HgS, I would also call that a bad decision as well. (wg48 I understand your listing was different, VSEPR_VOID you asked about it first which is a type of wisdom for sure)

unionised - 7-10-2018 at 11:36

S
I don't understand who is the victim? People being sold medicine that doesn't work? If you are sick and you start randomly googling and end up at that eBay ad and you buy it and it doesn't heal you, I see that as a logical consequence of a bad series of decisions. You could also call it natural selection. But if you buy it hoping for HgS, I would also call that a bad decision as well. (wg48 I understand your listing was different, VSEPR_VOID you asked about it first which is a type of wisdom for sure)

"I don't understand who is the victim? People being sold medicine that doesn't work? "
Yes, that's right the people who are being lied to are the victims..

"If you are sick and you start randomly googling and end up at that eBay ad and you buy it and it doesn't heal you, I see that as a logical consequence of a bad series of decisions. You could also call it natural selection."
the law sees it as fraud.

That's because the law recognises the asymmetry of information here.
You can do all the research you like; but if the seller is dishonest, you don't get what you paid for.

The seller has possession of the material and is in a position to verify the identity. The purchaser is not.

happyfooddance - 7-10-2018 at 12:22

"If you are sick and you start randomly googling and end up at that eBay ad and you buy it and it doesn't heal you, I see that as a logical consequence of a bad series of decisions. You could also call it natural selection."
the law sees it as fraud.

I don't know what kind of nazi country you live in that can classify that as fraud, but in my country people have protected civil rights that permit them to believe what they choose. It is only fraud if you claim something will perform a function, while knowing that it certainly won't or is reasonably likely not to work.

"Curcuma can be placed under the pillow or bed sheets, can play a sedative role, so that children can sleep safely, no longer crying.
Wearing brave friends, available cinnabar will brave, will be able to Lucky.
Driving a friend, you can hang in the car cinnabar, can concentrate on the spirit, to avoid illegal transactions were open, all the way safe. Couples can put cinnabar into the drift bottle, hanging on the phone as a decoration, can make the feelings more stable!
Cinnabar is widely used in our daily life "

If you buy this and your kids can't sleep, you don't feel brave or aren't lucky, that doesn't make you a victim of fraud. That makes you a damn idiot.

unionised - 7-10-2018 at 12:34

"It is only fraud if you claim something will perform a function, while knowing that it certainly won't or is reasonably likely not to work."
Well, they claim this function
"placed under the pillow or bed sheets, can play a sedative role, so that children can sleep safely,"

So I guess you don't think it passes this test "it certainly won't or is reasonably likely not to work.".

Are you saying that curcuma (or, indeed, mercuric sulphide) will have a sedative effect?

", that doesn't make you a victim of fraud. That makes you a damn idiot."
Why do you think the two are mutually exclusive?

The law protects both groups.

happyfooddance - 7-10-2018 at 13:51