LoKi
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legal consequences of private individuals exporting small amounts of chems from USA to other individuals
After 9/11 exporting chems from the US became a big deal as everybody knows. On this forum, people often offer to mail their surplus chems to others
in need, which I think is great and would undoubtedly be willing to do this myself if ever the oppurtunity arose for me to help out another member.
However, many of you live outside the US. I was wondering if anyone knows what kind of trouble, if any, one could get into by shipping a chem out of
country.
Which government agency would investigate/ prosecute?
Is there some protocol one must follow to avoid trouble?
Thresholds?
Basicly I think it would be a good idea to have any and all information pertaining to this issue in one place on this board so we can all stay out of
trouble. Personal experiences good or bad would also be greatly appreciated.
[Edited on 3/6/08 by LoKi]
\"They who can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.\"
-- Benjamin Franklin
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LSD25
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The relevant investigating agencies would be the (1) customs service; and (2) the federal (if federated) or national police force of the destination
country... You would also fall foul of at least the FBI if not actually (depending upon what you send - purified chems to countries such as Iran,
Afghanistan, Iraq etc) the CIA and the remainder of the alphabet soup.
As to how to avoid problems, make sure that you are legally entitled to (1) possess said substance within both the continental United States; (2) Your
specific location. Also ensure that you are not in breach of any embargo by sending the chemicals to the destination. Also ensure that the chemical
you intend to send is not actually illegal to send to the destination country and that the person you are sending it to is entitled to possess said
chemical in that country. The relevant legal requirements should be investigated by the intended recipient, they should be able to advise you as to
the extent of any and all prohibitions and also the threshold amounts of each item (if you cannnot trust them to do this, why exactly are you sending
them chemicals?).
Safest bet of all, unless the chemical you intend to send is so innocuous as to make it extemely unlikely that ownership of it would be prohibited
anywhere - don't send it.
Whhhoooppps, that sure didn't work
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quicksilver
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I believe the above to be good advise. Threshold amounts are a US Only issue TTBoMK. IF what you are sending is not of a clearly marked material, it
may also be considered a poison. It damn well should be labeled INSIDE the package.
The problems devide themselves into two camps. One is the "terror" agenda & the other a "drug" agenda. I don't believe that Customs concerns
itself with exports to a GREATER extent. That does NOT mean I don't think it won't be looked at; but mostly (due to resources) not here. In the host
country, depending upon resources, you could expect it to be looked at.
Expect the more developed countries like the EU & Canada to have the same agenda as the US. If you are sending anything to a country that does NOT
have good relations with the US, I would really caution against it. Sending a container of NaCLO to Afghanistan will most likely get a whole
investigation started (that will cost the tax payer millions).
I suppose that's an exaggeration but in reality there is commercially available via OTC sources, an enormous amount of chemicals that can be found if
the user lives within the EU, Commonwealth, or US. The finding of chemicals via OTC sources is a pastime in itself. If such a thing exists; I would
send the information or PRODUCT rather than the chemical....
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Sauron
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Everything depends on what the chemicals are and who the people are, and where they are.
The export of ANYTHING is a complex and bothersome affair.
Agencies having jurisdiction include
Commerce Dept.
State Department for anything on the US Munitions List and that includes quite a few chemicals
DEA for QUITE a few more chemicals
DHS for even more chemicals
Customs of course enforces the regulations and laws laid down by the above
ATFE for chemicals deemed to be explosives
Then there are complex regulations regarding chemicals prohibited through the mails, chemicals that cannot be shipped by common carriers, chemicals
that cannot be shipped by air cargo, hazardous materials, and so on.
You would need to know IATA codes, UN numbers, and God knows what else.
In short this is a minefield, and unless you are in the business of shipping chemicals internationally, and equipped to cope with all this red tape,
my advice is DO NOT.
In addition the receipient (addressee) may well need an import license from his own government and furnish it to the shipper BEFORE shipment. Lacking
this the shipper may have the shipment come back at him with consequent additional costs of freight and reimportation.
It's a nightmare and a quagmire.
Things are almost as bad for equipment,. But not quite, yet. I have a lot of lab equipment shipped to me from USA, fortunately my shipper usually
knows what he is doing.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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microcosmicus
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I suggest doing as my family does when we send packages to relatives abroad --- go
through an export company. They are already quite familiar with the complex,
bothersome, and confusing legalities and technicalities and will take care of the
proper paperwork, how to ship the package, how to pack and label the material, etc.
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Sauron
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Shipping agents are not all created equal, and few have any expertise with chemical shipments.
Even with merely lab quipment shipments, where there is no hazmat concern and no IATA/UN, I have had very uneven experience with paperwork
preparation, items have been inexplicably misdescribed in bizarre ways and the potential consequences if I don't catch and correct such errors in time
are dire.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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franklyn
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Don't take what I say too seriously, but if you have diplomatic connections,
you can always send something by diplomatic pouch. The pouch can be
anything from an envelop to a shipping container. The rub is that it must
originate from within the sovereign territory of an embassy or mission.
.
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Sauron
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Balderdash. The State Dept and foreign ministries do not take kindly to misuse of the diplomatic "pouch". I am very sure that private chemical
shipments would never be welcomed.
Likewise there are severe restrictions on what can be shipped by APO/FPO.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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franklyn
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Balderdash. there are severe restrictions on what can be shipped by APO/FPO. |
The obvious fault with your assertion is how exactly would this infraction
be " discovered " and exposed given that implies systematic monitoring
and violation of secrecy in transport. By American law such "evidence "
could never be admissable. Its an honor system that presumes members
honor a code of regulations which are not binding laws. The issue then is
what exactly will the sanction be and how is this to be enforced. Unless
there is very good reason to open this can of worms no official is going
to do so.
.
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franklyn
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Do you have anything to declare ?
http://www.nysun.com/national/customs-agents-copy-travelers-...
I have not personally travelled abroad since 2001
can things really be this bad.
.
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chloric1
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I am not surprised. We are heading into a global dictatorship. Everything is in place for another staged 9/11 attack somewhere else, possibly Europe
so the last nails can be firmly tapped into the coffin which lies liberty and justice.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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chloric1
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I am not surprised. We are heading into a global dictatorship. Everything is in place for another staged 9/11 attack somewhere else, possibly Europe
so the last nails can be firmly tapped into the coffin which lies liberty and justice.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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Ritter
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Everything depends on what the chemicals are and who the people are, and where they are.
The export of ANYTHING is a complex and bothersome affair.
Agencies having jurisdiction include
Commerce Dept.
State Department for anything on the US Munitions List and that includes quite a few chemicals
DEA for QUITE a few more chemicals
DHS for even more chemicals
Customs of course enforces the regulations and laws laid down by the above
ATFE for chemicals deemed to be explosives
Then there are complex regulations regarding chemicals prohibited through the mails, chemicals that cannot be shipped by common carriers, chemicals
that cannot be shipped by air cargo, hazardous materials, and so on.
You would need to know IATA codes, UN numbers, and God knows what else.
In short this is a minefield, and unless you are in the business of shipping chemicals internationally, and equipped to cope with all this red tape,
my advice is DO NOT.
In addition the receipient (addressee) may well need an import license from his own government and furnish it to the shipper BEFORE shipment. Lacking
this the shipper may have the shipment come back at him with consequent additional costs of freight and reimportation.
It's a nightmare and a quagmire.
Things are almost as bad for equipment,. But not quite, yet. I have a lot of lab equipment shipped to me from USA, fortunately my shipper usually
knows what he is doing. |
You've missed the main point: shipping. UPS won't accept chemicals from individuals and the Postal Service makes you jump through a bunch of hoops
(like special packaging & cerifying the containers used for flammable liquids) that will likely stall your shipment as well as get your name on a
terror watch list and get you a knock on the door from a postal inspector, FBI or worse.
Ritter
=============================
\"The production of too many useful things results in too many useless people.\"
Karl Marx
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JohnWW
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chloric1(cut)
I am not surprised. We are heading into a global dictatorship. Everything is in place for another staged 9/11 attack somewhere else, possibly Europe
so the last nails can be firmly tapped into the coffin which lies liberty and justice. |
Scuttlebutt (rumor) has it that Bu$h will try a faked alien invasion, using secret reproduced alien anti-gravity craft (remember what Dr Edgar
Mitchell said the other day, confirming the 1947 Roswell incident), holograph displays in the skies of UFO images, and rubber alien dummies made in
Hollywood, as an excuse to cancel either the 4th November elections or their results, declare martial law, suspend the US Constitution, make himself
pre$ident for life, remain in power indefinitely beyond 20th January 2009, and invite the rest of the world to join a global police state led by
himself. If before the elections, this would probably be about 6 weeks beforehand, in mid-late September.
[Edited on 27-7-08 by JohnWW]
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-jeffB
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JohnWW
Scuttlebutt (rumor) has it that Bu$h will try a faked alien invasion, using secret reproduced alien anti-gravity craft (remember what Dr Edgar
Mitchell said the other day, confirming the 1947 Roswell incident), holograph displays in the skies of UFO images, and rubber alien dummies made in
Hollywood, as an excuse to cancel either the 4th November elections or their results, declare martial law, suspend the US Constitution, make himself
pre$ident for life, remain in power indefinitely beyond 20th January 2009, and invite the rest of the world to join a global police state led by
himself. If before the elections, this would probably be about 6 weeks beforehand, in mid-late September.
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LOL!
Thanks for putting a date on this. I'll be sure to check back to this thread in two months' time. Given the way the last few elections have gone,
I'd happily give up the next one in exchange for a front-row seat at the Great Unveiling.
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Balderdash. The State Dept and foreign ministries do not take kindly to misuse of the diplomatic "pouch". I am very sure that private chemical
shipments would never be welcomed.
Likewise there are severe restrictions on what can be shipped by APO/FPO. |
The 'diplomatic pouch' is widely abused.
Unfortunate idiots have been loaded into 'diplomatic pouches' and shipped abroad for involuntary tooth and toenail removal.
Plus a few diplomats have made a bit on the side from 'Cola' that came in pouches.
And currency smuggling is widepread and viewed as a perk of the job.
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JohnWW
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel
The 'diplomatic pouch' is widely abused. Unfortunate idiots have been loaded into 'diplomatic pouches' and shipped abroad for involuntary tooth and
toenail removal. Plus a few diplomats have made a bit on the side from 'Cola' that came in pouches. And currency smuggling is widepread and viewed as
a perk of the job. |
Use of diplomatic baggage for people-smuggling, whether voluntary or involuntary, is illegal under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1961;
see http://www.unog.ch/80256EDD006B8954/(httpAssets)/7F83006DA90AAE7FC1256F260034B806/$file/Vienna%20Convention%20(1961)%20-%20E.pdf .
Only goods and supplies (but not concealed or undocumented persons) needed in the operations of diplomatic missions can be carried in diplomatic
baggage and vehicles through or to and from a host country, along with accredited diplomatic staff.
However, in spite of the Convention, the Secret Political Police of Arab countries have been noted for this sort of thing, in respect of (suspected)
double agents. About 30 years ago, there was a case in Italy of an Egyptian spy whom Israeli Mossad secret agents bribed to become a turncoat, and
give Israel crucial information on Egypt's military and intelligence services. However, agents of the Egyptian Secret Police in Rome somehow found out
about it, and their secret cops attached to the Egyptian Embassy kidnapped the turncoat, drugged and bound him, put him in a crate adapted for
people-smuggling and officially designated as "diplomatic baggage" supposedly containing a piano, and attempted to fly the crate to Egypt through
Rome's Fiumicino Airport. However, the drug wore off too early, and the turncoat imprisoned in the crate screamed out in Arabic, and what he said was
heard by an Italian Customs agent who was fluent in Arabic. The Egyptian secret agents attempted to reload the crate into their van and drive away
from the airport, but the Italian Customs agent had a much faster Ferrari and blocked their getaway. Because of the breach of the Vienna Diplomatic
Convention, the crate was opened by Italian Customs, and the turncoat freed and given political asylum in Israel. A large number of staff of the
Egyptian Embassy in Rome were expelled as the result of this incident.
[Edited on 28-7-08 by JohnWW]
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ScienceSquirrel
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And Umaru Dikko had a lucky escape;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umaru_Dikko
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