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moonclub
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organic peroxydes are really dangerous. no matter HMTD or AP. using of HCl is recommended. (10 green prods standing on the wall...)

You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance!
Tweenk
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Tetrameric AP is better

 Quote: Originally posted by trichomegrower (..) I used 1 inch copper tubes. I seperated probably about 1g AP and put it on a piece if paper, wich i was going to use to pour the shit into the tube. As i poured the stuff in, the friction in between the crystals and the paper caused by the ap running down into the tube, detonated. (...)

I think not the friction was the case of detonation. Organic peroxides (dimeric AP especially...) decompose exothermically in contact with metals. So making AP blasting caps with copper tubes as the casings is basically a suicide. The fact you might have made the dimeric AP could also play the role. I'd reccomend you to make tetrameric acetone peroxide instead: To a solution of 1,5 g SnCl4 x 5H2O in 40 ml of 30% hydrogen peroxide add 40 ml of acetone. Stir the mixture for 24 hours with a stirrer or just let it to react on its own (at room temperature). Crystals will gradually form. After 24 h (or some more if you haven't stirred) cease stirring, evaporate off all the unreacted acetone (preferably with a water pump), filter off the solid, then recrystallise it form 50% acetone/water solution or benzene. You will get about 12 g of crystals that melt at 93*C without detonation and is stable even at 120*C.

And now we add powdered sugar to the previously liquefied chlorine dioxide...
Hideki Matsumoto
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i have never had an accident with AP

I do find if you pack AP slightly moist into a sealed container made of thick cardboard you never have to worry about premature detonation. Metal conatiner idea is just not that smart!!!
second thing make sure you store all your AP charges in a cool dark environment properly labeled!!!!!
I did have someone throw a 200g APAN blasting charge into the neighbours bonfire one time in an old wooden crate.. duh... the result was a massive explosion and bits of wood and crap on fire raining out of the air for several 1000 ft!! The blast knocked down trees around the blast zone and windows around the neighbourhood.
Well someone easily could have been killed in this unfortunate situation, neighbour thought it was a full propane tank that went off. Awww..

IT SCARED THE SHIT OUT OF ME ! LABEL YOUR EXPLOSIVES SO THIS DOESN't HAPPEN TO YOU!
Polverone
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 Quote: Originally posted by Hideki Matsumoto I do find if you pack AP slightly moist into a sealed container made of thick cardboard you never have to worry about premature detonation. Metal conatiner idea is just not that smart!!! second thing make sure you store all your AP charges in a cool dark environment properly labeled!!!!! I did have someone throw a 200g APAN blasting charge into the neighbours bonfire one time in an old wooden crate.. duh... the result was a massive explosion and bits of wood and crap on fire raining out of the air for several 1000 ft!! The blast knocked down trees around the blast zone and windows around the neighbourhood. Well someone easily could have been killed in this unfortunate situation, neighbour thought it was a full propane tank that went off. Awww.. IT SCARED THE SHIT OUT OF ME ! LABEL YOUR EXPLOSIVES SO THIS DOESN't HAPPEN TO YOU!

200 g of a mixture of ammonium nitrate and an organic peroxide knocked down multiple trees and hurled debris thousands of feet into the air? I think this story has grown a bit in the retelling.

Edit: stories like this also cast grave doubts on your credibility in reporting, for example, the successful synthesis of DPPP and exploration of its wondrous high-performance properties.

[Edited on 12-18-2004 by Polverone]

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Hideki Matsumoto
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Polverone, DPPP has wonderfully high performance!!

1# Yes, you are absoultly wrong Polverone! DPPP rivals all organic peroxides in power!! The patent is 100% correct about the detonation velocity. 9Km/sec
2# This ~200g 9 it may have been a bit more than that. -250g APAN charge story is true. It did some horrific damage due to the fact it was in a tightly packed wood/ metal crate. The force of the explosion was powerful enough to knock down a few trees , and scatter red hot coals all over the neighbourhood. I found hot embers and bits of wood about 2500ft away from the blast zone.
It looked like someone touched off a landmine... The crater that this charge made was about 1ft deep.
2 trees that were roughly 3" thick that were next to the fire ( 3ft away) were sheered from midline and snapped like twiggs.
Again I have pictures of the site to post.
neutrino
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 Quote: Originally posted by Hideki Matsumoto It did some horrific damage due to the fact it was in a tightly packed wood/ metal crate.

Obviously, you don't quite understand the difference between an LE and an HE. HEs don't need comfinement to explode violently. Your story somewhat reminds me of this lamer.
Hideki Matsumoto
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i know the difference between LE and HE thanx

You are talking to a chemist here and one that is very well rounded in explosives thanx.
The crate did nothing really to contain any gases and one end happend to be opened on the case. I have tried exact (approximate) amount of APAN without extra containment. The result was a huge concussion and overpressure. I think the reason behind the 2 trees getting flattened were due to the flying case bits and ( metal sharpnel shards) ....
Wow... I just wished i had a video tape off this... I do have pics of the aftermath though. These are coming soon.
APAN is quite powerful stuff. ratio for my APAN is 56:44
Joeychemist
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I call Bullshit!!

I too now believe you to be a ”bullshiter”. You say you’re a “chemist” and that you’re “very well rounded in explosives”. But you would throw 200-250g (which ever one it is we don’t know because you like to change you’re storey) in you’re neighbors fire. No chemist I know with half a brain would throw APAN in a steel crate into a fire. Let alone a chemist who is “well rounded in explosives”.

Wasn’t there shrapnel imbedded into you’re neighbors house.

You’re right though about one thing. APAN is very powerful, but not the mix you’re using. APAN is most powerful when the mix is between 8-15% AP and 92-85% Ammonium nitrate and requires a blasting cap to detonate. It would seem like you’re lying. maybe???

[Edited on 20-12-2004 by Joeychemist]
Hideki Matsumoto
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You aren't reading the previous 2 posts!!

As I said, in the very begining, This was due to someone not reading the hazard sign on the box... BTW..I didn't throw it in the fire, just so you know.
The crate was made of wood, mostly with big metal reinforced sides. one side was partiially open as a vent. I AM NOT BULLSHITTING! I got in some serious shit from that incedent... ie) Police, I had to explain to the dumbshit who threw it in the fire that they could have KILLED someone. I guess danger labels don't mean shit to some people. i also had to pay my neighbour $for new windows. There was some cosmetic damage to the house as well, but not to big a deal. Luckily through all of this I wasn't charged! AS I SAID BEFORE NEVER LEAVE EXPLOSIVES IN UNMARKED CONTAINERS OR IN ACCESSIBLE AREAS OR THIS IS WHAT MAY HAPPEN TO YOU! ... This true story is a reminder to those who make and store this stuff. Pictures are coming soon Axt International Hazard Posts: 778 Registered: 28-1-2003 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Heh... Heres some gems I found using a totally unrelated search on google. Heres a variation on the APAN in the fire story.  Quote: Hideki Matsumoto ñ{ìñÇÃóùâ?ÇÕêSÇÃíÜÇ©ÇÁóàÇÈÅB (311 posts) 11-19-04, 10:11 PM reply Just to let you know how powerful both AP and DPPPD/DPPP are here is a story that will make everything very clear for you! I was making a 50g blasting charge out of an open ended carboard tube 3/4" wide x 1" long. The material I was using was microcrystalline APAN that had been sitting for 2 months slow drying in a dark cool spot. i had a fuse in it ready to be use the day I needed it, and then something happend to it an I lost sight of it !!! The blasting charge went missing one day and ended up in a incinerator can to my discovery and to everyone in the neighbourhoods discovery !! It exploded !!! The incinerator can ripped open and the botton of it was blown into the air like someone dropped a hand grenade into it! The bast was so powerful that it shattered the concrete the incinerator was sitting on in a circular pattern. The blast was heard 2miles away! luckily no broken windows or downed trees!  Quote: Hideki Matsumoto ñ{ìñÇÃóùâ?ÇÕêSÇÃíÜÇ©ÇÁóàÇÈÅB (311 posts) 11-20-04, 02:35 AM reply Yes, the only thing that was in the incinerator was the charge, if the whole vial container of APAN was in the incinerator (800g) I would have lost the side of my house and had bits of metal can wizzing around at 7500-8000m/sec taking out trees and windows and people for several 1000ft, I am sure. As I say again APAN is 250% more powerful than commercial Dynamite (TNT) and has a much higher det velocity. Had this been DPPP/DPPPD the situation would have been MUCH WORSE! Wow, the "diamine" derivative goes all the way up to 9800m/s.  Quote: Hideki Matsumoto ñ{ìñÇÃóùâ?ÇÕêSÇÃíÜÇ©ÇÁóàÇÈÅB (311 posts) 11-15-04, 03:28 AM reply Another high order explosive that I have tried with sucess is D.P.P.P.D or D.P.P.P. It is called chemically Dipherone Pentaperoxide (Diamine) and has the highest detonating velocity of all Organic peroxides at 9.8Km sec. this is made my adding Acetone to HCL and heating it to around 40-50c the mixture turns green/yellow and smells pungent. leave this to sit/evapourate and collect the yellowish crystals from the residue after the precip has formed. This process is long 12-48hrs and needs careful inspection!!! Add Hydrogen peroxide to the crstalline mass and chill immediatly in a freezer. the end result is a greenish soild crystalline mass. Dry this out and it becomes an extreamly powerful heat sensitive explosive with a det velo of nearly that of PETN! BE CAREFUL WITH THIS STUFF AS IT IS ALSO HIGHLY TOXIC AND FRICTION SENSITIVE// DONT PUT IT IN A SCEW CAP CONTAINER OR IT WILL DETONATE!! AP has 200% the power of TNT  Quote: Hideki Matsumoto ñ{ìñÇÃóùâ?ÇÕêSÇÃíÜÇ©ÇÁóàÇÈÅB (311 posts) 09-26-04, 01:21 PM reply How to make Tricycloacetone peroxide det Vel. 7600-8300m/sec: Materials neeeded. 1)Acetone 2)35% HCL (Muratic acid) used as a catalyst. 3)30%-40% Hydrogen Peroxide (Hyperox) (Hydroponic sanitizer) 4) A refrigerator and ice bath to stabilize reaction. I will tell you how to make this DANGEROUS HIGH EXPLOSIVE ! When dry it is highly sensitive to shock, metallic cmpounds, and heat. Light may even set it off. Detonation power is 150-200% of TNT! It can be stabilized with Ammonium Nitrate but becomes hydroscopic if AN is added. The power factor is also increased.  Quote: Hideki Matsumoto ñ{ìñÇÃóùâ?ÇÕêSÇÃíÜÇ©ÇÁóàÇÈÅB (311 posts) 11-15-04, 03:05 AM reply I just made some of my own Dynamite !! yay! I did a 60/40 with AP and AN/NM WOW !!! I got a det velocity over 8 Km/sec !! I did blasting with the stuff!! I use the best fuse on the market. Thermolite 5 metalized blasters fuse. burns underwater and in confined spaces$20CDN per 15m

And the best of all:

 Quote: Hideki Matsumoto ñ{ìñÇÃóùâ?ÇÕêSÇÃíÜÇ©ÇÁóàÇÈÅB (311 posts) 11-23-04, 06:22 PM reply Just discussing Octonitrocubane and the power this molecule has with a contact of mine! Turns out that the military thinks that the detonation velocity of this compound could be in the neighbourhood of 91Km/sec (over sublight speeds). This would make this compund almost as powerful as a nuclear weapon! WoW the Cubane molecule has apparently 166KCal per mole of energy! I will see what I can come up with on how it is put together!

So much for your credibility Hideki et al. These are all extracts from http://www.sciforums.com
KemiRockarFett
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I would like to tell you all, as you already known, that the density is needed to bee much higher to get so high VoD:s. That is nessesary for the shockwave to propagate fast through the matrix.
The person which claims this garbage is a mythoman.

Edit by C. removed massive quote.

[Edited on 23-12-2004 by chemoleo]
Joeychemist
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Good show man!

Axt you finaly nailed this k3wl using his own lies against him. Great work man, I love it. I'm laughing so hard I'm allmost crying over here.
Polverone
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banned but welcome to return

Hideki Matsumoto, if you are still reading this, feel free to register another screen name and get a fresh start. There's no vindictive streak here. You just need to keep your reports (outside of Whimsy, anyway) confined to reality.

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MWRAY236466
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Hideki is right... DPPP is a very powerful HE. I did a recrystallization of the crystals that I got with this synthesis. I made a lot of dets. and the difference respect AP is really incredible... Dont try DPPP without a recrystallization. DPPP IS THE BEST PRIMARY EXPLOSIVE....
hissingnoise
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 Quote: Originally posted by MWRAY236466 DPPP IS THE BEST PRIMARY EXPLOSIVE....

Could someone please pass me the NaCl cellar. . .
User
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Please tell me is this behavior contagious?

Years ago i had a small accident, and it scared the hell outta me.

A very tiny amount of 50/50 DS/MHN was placed in a small beaker and very gently mixed with a glass rod.
After stirring it as gently as possible .. it went off.
At least partially, it was still a bit damp and i guess that saved me.
Although it was a small amount (around 0.6-0.8 gram ) it could have done serious damage.
Still not absolutely positive about the cause, but i think it might have been friction or static electricity.
DS is not so insensitive as i thought.

I was lucky, and not planning to test this luck again.
My respect for high explosives keeps growing by the day.
I am no longer scared, just fascinated and respectful.
Habit is probably the biggest risk of them all.

What a fine day for chemistry this is.
hissingnoise
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DS must be very sensitising but I can't find it on my virtual list of acronyms User; can you give us a reminder?
User
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Sorry it's slang I guess
DS = double salts (referring to AgC2/AgNO3 )

What a fine day for chemistry this is.
edmo
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My HNO3 is eating away at the plastic cap. Acids are so hungry.
PHILOU Zrealone
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 Quote: Originally posted by User Years ago i had a small accident, and it scared the hell outta me. A very tiny amount of 50/50 DS/MHN was placed in a small beaker and very gently mixed with a glass rod. After stirring it as gently as possible .. it went off. At least partially, it was still a bit damp and i guess that saved me. Although it was a small amount (around 0.6-0.8 gram ) it could have done serious damage. Still not absolutely positive about the cause, but i think it might have been friction or static electricity. DS is not so insensitive as i thought. I was lucky, and not planning to test this luck again. My respect for high explosives keeps growing by the day. I am no longer scared, just fascinated and respectful. Habit is probably the biggest risk of them all.

Two factors might explain the explosion of your batch!
1°)The siver nitrate acetylide complex is a mix (clathrate) of silver acetylide, silver nitrate and nitric acid...
(x Ag2C2. y AgNO3. z HNO3)
AgNO3(aq) + C2H2(g) --> Ag2C2(s) + 2 HNO3(aq)

So the double salt is on a discrete level somehow acidic...it is known for ages that trace acidity inside nitric esters (like MHN) is bad news for stability and sensitivity.

2°)Silver nitrate acetylide complex when done without care produce a grey-brown or black compound in place of a creamy coloured solid...the darker the compound is the more sensitive it is towards friction...

PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
a_bab
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Mood: Angry !!!!!111111...2?!

I had silver acetylide (carbide) goung off twice on me. I highly suspect a complex of it is prone to ddt even in wet state due to the crystal stress.
On the other hand, making a mixture of a HE with a primary is plain insane anyway.
User
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Is it really that insane...

This way it is possible to use even smaller total amounts.
DS is relatively weak and one would need larger amounts to set off insensitive HE's.
By adding 50% MHN ( or other ) the power of the primairy charge is enhanched in a way that goes around just using more.

I cant back this up at the moment but compo blasting caps have been used commercially.

What a fine day for chemistry this is.
nitro-genes
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 Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone 2°)Silver nitrate acetylide complex when done without care produce a grey-brown or black compound in place of a creamy coloured solid...

Except for AgNO3 and HNO3 concentrations, which conditions would further promote complex formation?

What would be the effect of impurities? Using calcium carbide gas generator instead of pure acetylene always results in slight discoloured product for me. No matter which synth I'm using. Tried using gas washing bottle with NaOH solution to remove H2S and PH3, still grey product... HNO3 and AgNO3 are PA grade, water used MilliQ... lol.

[Edited on 1-9-2009 by nitro-genes]
PHILOU Zrealone
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Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes
 Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone 2°)Silver nitrate acetylide complex when done without care produce a grey-brown or black compound in place of a creamy coloured solid...

Except for AgNO3 and HNO3 concentrations, which conditions would further promote complex formation?

What would be the effect of impurities? Using calcium carbide gas generator instead of pure acetylene always results in slight discoloured product for me. No matter which synth I'm using. Tried using gas washing bottle with NaOH solution to remove H2S and PH3, still grey product... HNO3 and AgNO3 are PA grade, water used MilliQ... lol.
[Edited on 1-9-2009 by nitro-genes]

-You can make 3 variety of silver acetylide:
1°) the neutral process, via bubbling C2H2 into silver acetate solution
2°) the basic process, via bubbling C2H2 into AgOH solution into ammonia water
3°) the acidic process, via bubbling C2H2 into AgN03 solution

The sequence of stability is 3>1>>2 and the sequence of power and VOD is 3>>1=2!

-To make the best stable silver acetylide nitrate complex and to get it as white/creamy as possible:
1°) Use demi water for the dissolution of AgNO3!
The use of tap water results in AgCl, Ag2CO3, AgOH, Ag2SO4, ... all insoluble induce darkening of the resulting precipitate by generation of black metalic silver.
2°) Use chemically pure AgNO3 if possible.
Unpure compound induce oxydoredox that favourise deposition of black metalic silver.
3°) Avoid by all means the refluxing of Ca(OH)2 aside with the C2H2 into the AgNO3 container. This causes immediate precipitation of AgOH source of black metalic silver (or black silver oxyde)
4°) Avoid as much as possible the contact with strong light (especially sunlight) during all the process (dissolution, bubbling, filtration, washing with H2O demi, air drying)
(Sun)light decomposes the AgNO3 and other silver salts into metalic Ag.
Under very strong sunlight exposition the complex might self-explode.
5°) If you use a paper coffee filter, wash it twice with demi water...this helps washing the chloride, sulfide, sulfate away from the paper...
6°) Note the rewash (twice) with demi water after the filtration, this allows to wash excess uncomplexed AgNO3.
The wash water can be reused in initial AgNO3 solution for further bubbling to get a second crop of precipitate.
7°)Air dry in the cold (25-35°C) and in the dark.
Then store in a PE film canisher.

If you follow those instructions, you get white to creamy precipitate that last for years without change and keeps all its abilities to the top.
Otherwise you get a grey to brown precipitate that get less and less stable as it turns darker.

[Edited on 1-9-2009 by PHILOU Zrealone]

PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
hodges
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 Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone -You can make 3 variety of silver acetylide: 1°) the neutral process, via bubbling C2H2 into silver acetate solution 2°) the basic process, via bubbling C2H2 into AgOH solution into ammonia water 3°) the acidic process, via bubbling C2H2 into AgN03 solution The sequence of stability is 3>1>>2 and the sequence of power and VOD is 3>>1=2!

I have a small amount of silver acetylide, made using method #2, that has been stored under water for over 3 years. It started out white and has now darkened to dark gray. Just tested some recently and seems to act the same as before.

Hodges
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special topics » Energetic Materials » Had an acciedent....... Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues