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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
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What? Pseudoephedrine? I admit, it is almost useless in home chemistry but you're missing the point.
[Edited on 16-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7977
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
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If I am reading your responses, MagicJigPipe, then apparently not everybody has good medical care in the USA? Then I think that is the flaw of the
system. Every person in NL has at least some basic medical care and if a medicine is needed, then such a person can get a prescription. In fact, for
many things people prefer prescribed medicines, because these have not to be paid by those people, while basic stuff which can be purchased freely has
to be paid by themselves.
But let's not go into a political discussion about tax-paying and the medical care system, that's not the purpose of sciencemadness. I got your point,
and I hope you got mine (from my NL point of view).
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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I would support prescription-only pseudoephedrine/ephedrine if I thought that it would actually roll back unreasonable restrictions
on reagents of broader utility, but it won't, so I don't. Anthranilic acid is still List I and shows no signs of moving from it, though quaaludes
haven't been clandestinely produced or or enjoyed recreational popularity for more than a generation in the US. It's extremely difficult to roll back
regulations once they are in place, even if the original rationale no longer applies. There is no give-and-take with regulators, only take, so I think
it is foolish to believe that they can be appeased by anything hobby chemists do. Preemptive calls for regulation by hobbyists (in hope of staving off
worse regulations) are just going to knot the noose that much faster.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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pantone159
National Hazard
Posts: 586
Registered: 27-6-2006
Location: Austin, TX, USA
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Mood: desperate for shade
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Pseudoephedrine is getting more restricted, at least here and I thought everywhere in the USA. Now, you have to go to the real pharmacist (not a
clerk), and show ID which is logged.
If they did this 10 years ago, maybe controls on RP/I2 would not have happened.
I don't think there will be any rollback on precursor regulations unless there is a big shift re drugs policy away from prohibition/LE. Without
that, no politician will support backing off on anything.
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0U812
Harmless
Posts: 8
Registered: 29-1-2008
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The Chemical Closet
I ordered from the company back in January, after thinking I got ripped off and sweating during the wait, my chems finally arrived. Took three weeks
though, so much for "Fast Discrete Delivery"!!
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evil_lurker
National Hazard
Posts: 767
Registered: 12-3-2005
Location: United States of Elbonia
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Mood: On the wagon again.
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Take a picture of the reagents and maybe I will believe you.
Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in
beer.
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Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
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| Quote: | Originally posted by microcosmicus
| Quote: |
Haven't you noticed how pseudoephedrine containing products are being advertised in EU lately?
Haven't you noticed anything unusual?
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I haven't for the simple reason that I happen to be located on the other side of the Atlantic. Could
you tell us more? |
If you happen to be located on the other side of the Atlantic, then you already saw it all.
A couple of years ago the situation about (pseudo)ephedrine in more or less entire Europe (not just the EU) was just as Woelen described above for the
Netherlands.
Things dramatically started changing about two years ago when the restrictions on pseudoephedrine containing products in the USA begun to get
implemented. This was first evident in certain EU countries where you would all of a sudden see about a fifth of all commercials promoting
pseudoephedrine based OTC medicines, especially during the flu season. Coincidentally blatant tweaker's symbolism and iconography is used in most of
these commercials and messages that impute CNS stimulation activity ("it makes you feel good", "you can be more effective at your work", "makes you
strong", etc.). Mind that earlier there used to be a strong regulation over pseudoephedrine and in most countries even nor-pseudoephedrine was not
available without prescription. The only knowledge and associations with the word "pseudoephedrine" that a very small minority of Europeans have is
with the USA culture and their meth (mostly from media), nearly nobody knows it as a decongestant and the rest of them have no associations at all
since they never heard about it anyway. Therefore, I have no idea why it would be advantageous to promote flu medicines as "Contains pseudoephedrine".
Medicines containing up to 100mg pseudoephedrine per pill are now completely OTC in many European countries. The European Commission now approves even
medicines containing as much as 120mg of pseudoephedrine per pill! (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/78686.php)
And these changes are occurring despite the EU signing various international protocols for methamphetamine abuse control. Be ready for the
meth-americanization of the EU:
| Quote: | Pseudoephedrine
Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will publish the advice she has received on making over the counter medicines containing
pseudoephedrine available on prescription only. [126845]
Caroline Flint: There has been increasing concern from the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA)
that pseudoephedrine and ephedrine can be extracted from over the counter (OTC) remedies relatively easily and used in the manufacture of
methylamphetamine. Methylamphetamine was reclassified on 18 January 2007 by the Home Office as a Class A controlled drug, based on the recommendation
of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD).
Although the prevalence of misuse of methylamphetamine is believed to be currently low in the United Kingdom, ACPO are receiving increasing levels of
intelligence about the prevalence of methylamphetamine. If methylamphetamine did secure a hold in the UK, the consequences would undoubtedly be very
serious. The international experience shows that misuse can spread rapidly when certain conditions prevail and the advice of UK enforcement
authorities is that most of these conditions now prevail in the UK.
In January 2007 the Commission on Human Medicines (CHM) considered the evidence of a risk to public health from OTC availability of the precursors to
methylamphetamine, pseudoephedrine and ephedrine. The evidence to date centres on advice from ACPO and SOCA that the availability of
methylamphetamine is increasing, evidenced in part by the increase in the number of illicit laboratories manufacturing methylamphetamine found by the
police in the UK. The police have identified in specific cases that multiple packs of particular pharmacy pseudoephedrine containing products had
been purchased and used in the illicit manufacture of methylamphetamine. They have also identified that, in part, these packs were obtained from
numerous pharmacies to obtain adequate quantities for manufacturing.
The CHM recommended that changing the legal status of pseudoephedrine and ephedrine together with restricting the pack size was necessary to protect
public health in the UK and that a consultation exercise should be conducted on these proposals. Ministers accepted this advice and a full public
consultation exercise commenced on 7 March 2007 and can be accessed via the MHRA’s website at:
www.mhra.gov.uk
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(from http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/c... , underlines added)
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
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Heh... I don't know about meth americanization just because psudafed is more prevelant. That sounds like DEA rationale. TIME RELEASE pseudoephedrine
products are sold here that contain up to 240mg per pill. That doesn't mean they're giving out big doses to get people "high".
Sorry if this is incoherrent but I just woke up to type up an interesting dream I had.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7977
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
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| Quote: | The CHM recommended that changing the legal status of pseudoephedrine and ephedrine together with restricting the pack size was necessary to protect
public health in the UK and that a consultation exercise should be conducted on these proposals. Ministers accepted this advice and a full public
consultation exercise commenced on 7 March 2007 and can be accessed via the MHRA’s website at:
www.mhra.gov.uk |
This is an example of restricting the right chemical. There is concern of misuse of (pseudo)ephedrine in the UK and the only reasonable response to
this is to restrict this material (August 2007).
http://www.mhra.gov.uk/NewsCentre/Pressreleases/CON2032216
No mention is made of restricting P, I2 or whatever suitable reductor, but restricting the stuff itself.
[Edited on 17-3-08 by woelen]
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MagicJigPipe
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Location: USA
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Well, we obviously have very different philosophies concerning govt regulation, control of the populace and nanny state type laws and/or restrictions.
You are right that it is a public health matter though. Public health matters aren't solved (it should be obvious using the US as an example)
through prohibition and regulation. Really though, what is the difference between the govt banning chemicals and the govt banning pseudoephedrine?
You don't care about psudafed but you care about the chemicals (ephedrine is a chemical). I on the other hand, don't believe in more regulations,
whether or not I utilize and/or care for the material being regulated.
Now the reasoning behing banning drugs/precursors is that they people CAN harm themselves with them and they CAN harm others with them (just like any
physical object for that matter). Okay, with that same reasoning you support, H2SO4, HNO3, xOH, NOx, barium salts, bromide salts and pretty much any
other chemical etc... should be regulated as well.
More regulation is NEVER the answer, IMO. A society cannot call itself free if people aren't free to make their own choices. If the people don't
want to be free, fine, but they shouldn't kid themselves.
First three definitions of freedom for reference:
1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.
Does anybody in Europe or the Americas fit that description?
Sorry, but I don't think this is terribly OT. Let me know if everyone thinks otherwise.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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mechem
Harmless
Posts: 32
Registered: 27-12-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Don't know about the chemical closet, prob just a con, just look at the Phenylacetic Acid they are selling, looks like water not white cryts. If you
order they will prob send you fake watched list chems or expensive safer chems.
As far as I know we do not have entrapment in the UK unlike the US. has anyone tried ordering listed chems from them.
If anyone wanted to make something as horrible as meth in the UK they could easily buy the eph. otc, ebay uk is full of listings for iodine and I
have seen P their as well.
If you live in the US don't even think about it.
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anotheronebitesthedust
Hazard to Others
Posts: 189
Registered: 24-6-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Be weary of anyone who supports TCC or claims to have successfully ordered chems from them.
The Chemical Closet has a Paypal account registered in Arizona. The site is registered to a person with the same name as an Arizona law enforcement
officer. Their pictures of chemicals are faulty.
I tried ordering three times for shits and giggles and each time I waited a month and filed for refund through Paypal. I then got a call from RCMP
Chemical Division officer wanting to talk. If I lived in the U.S.A. I'd be sitting in a jail cell.
I still have an email and I'll post their IP a little later.
Don't even talk about IF it's a sting. There's no question of IF.
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
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By the way, I would like to emphasize the fact that I think even people who are manufacturing methamphetamine don't deserve what they get in this
country. I despise meth but prohibition, in the first place, is stupid and obviously ineffective.
The ONLY reason a methamphetamine manufacturer should get in ANY trouble at all is if they A) Sell a dangerous or extremely impure product B) kill
somebody with the product that they sell C) sell to kids D) take advantage of addicts or others E) commit a crime while intoxicated F) drive
intoxicated (already a crime)
Personal recreational use of even amphetamines is okay in my book. That is only because I am anti-prohibition and it doesn't mean I like
methamphetamines or condone their use.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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pantone159
National Hazard
Posts: 586
Registered: 27-6-2006
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: desperate for shade
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| Quote: | | Can you send me the link to this news article? |
I found these two articles, however they did not mention TCC by name, just an 'overseas website'.
http://www.bakersfield.com/hourly_news/story/301462.html
http://www.eyeoutforyou.com/home/12102341.html
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joeflsts
Hazard to Others
Posts: 226
Registered: 14-1-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
Be weary of anyone who supports TCC or claims to have successfully ordered chems from them.
The Chemical Closet has a Paypal account registered in Arizona. The site is registered to a person with the same name as an Arizona law enforcement
officer. Their pictures of chemicals are faulty.
I tried ordering three times for shits and giggles and each time I waited a month and filed for refund through Paypal. I then got a call from RCMP
Chemical Division officer wanting to talk. If I lived in the U.S.A. I'd be sitting in a jail cell.
I still have an email and I'll post their IP a little later.
Don't even talk about IF it's a sting. There's no question of IF. |
I think you should post more information.
What is the name of the person in Arizona?
What did you order on both occassions?
What is your case number with the RCMP?
What is the contact information for the RCMP Chemical Division?
Joe
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anotheronebitesthedust
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 24-6-2007
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Eat a dick Joeflorist. I've read your posts and you've revealed yourself as a piece of shit.
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anotheronebitesthedust
Hazard to Others
Posts: 189
Registered: 24-6-2007
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WHOIS Search
Hey whaddya know. The IP in the email from Chemical Closet is based in Arizona.
148.167.148.100
| Quote: | OrgName: City of Phoenix
OrgID: CITYOF-78
Address: 251 W Washington
City: Phoenix
StateProv: AZ
PostalCode: 85003
Country: US
NetRange: 148.167.0.0 - 148.167.255.255
CIDR: 148.167.0.0/16
NetName: PHXGOV
NetHandle: NET-148-167-0-0-1
Parent: NET-148-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: COPNS1.CI.PHOENIX.AZ.US
NameServer: COPNS2.CI.PHOENIX.AZ.US
NameServer: NS1.DURU.NET
NameServer: NS2.DURU.NET
Comment:
RegDate: 1991-05-09
Updated: 2008-01-10
RAbuseHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RAbuseName: ITD PhxWeb
RAbusePhone: +1-602-256-3527
RAbuseEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov
RNOCHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RNOCName: ITD PhxWeb
RNOCPhone: +1-602-256-3527
RNOCEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov
RTechHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RTechName: ITD PhxWeb
RTechPhone: +1-602-256-3527
RTechEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov
OrgTechHandle: DP1317-ARIN
OrgTechName: Pristavec, David
OrgTechPhone: +1-602-256-3484
OrgTechEmail: dpristav@ci.phoenix.az.us |
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
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Can you please elaborate on your experiences, anotherone bitesthedust? Like what you ordered and so on.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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joeflsts
Hazard to Others
Posts: 226
Registered: 14-1-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
Hey whaddya know. The IP in the email from Chemical Closet is based in Arizona.
148.167.148.100
| Quote: | OrgName: City of Phoenix
OrgID: CITYOF-78
Address: 251 W Washington
City: Phoenix
StateProv: AZ
PostalCode: 85003
Country: US
NetRange: 148.167.0.0 - 148.167.255.255
CIDR: 148.167.0.0/16
NetName: PHXGOV
NetHandle: NET-148-167-0-0-1
Parent: NET-148-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: COPNS1.CI.PHOENIX.AZ.US
NameServer: COPNS2.CI.PHOENIX.AZ.US
NameServer: NS1.DURU.NET
NameServer: NS2.DURU.NET
Comment:
RegDate: 1991-05-09
Updated: 2008-01-10
RAbuseHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RAbuseName: ITD PhxWeb
RAbusePhone: +1-602-256-3527
RAbuseEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov
RNOCHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RNOCName: ITD PhxWeb
RNOCPhone: +1-602-256-3527
RNOCEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov
RTechHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RTechName: ITD PhxWeb
RTechPhone: +1-602-256-3527
RTechEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov
OrgTechHandle: DP1317-ARIN
OrgTechName: Pristavec, David
OrgTechPhone: +1-602-256-3484
OrgTechEmail: dpristav@ci.phoenix.az.us |
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Really?
Registrant:
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom
Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: THECHEMICALCLOSET.COM
Created on: 29-Jun-07
Expires on: 29-Jun-08
Last Updated on: 29-Jun-07
Administrative Contact:
Porter, James james.porterthe3rd@yahoo.co.uk
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom
447742129481 Fax --
Technical Contact:
Porter, James james.porterthe3rd@yahoo.co.uk
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom
447742129481 Fax --
Domain servers in listed order:
NS57.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
NS58.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
A simple PING to www.thechemicalcloset.com reveals that the actual IP address resolves to 72.167.11.220 which isn't even remotely close to what you posted.
Once again -
What did you buy?
Who contacted you?
What is the contact information for the "Chemical Division" you referenced?
Simple question for someone telling the truth.
Joe
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DJF90
International Hazard
Posts: 2266
Registered: 15-12-2007
Location: At the bench
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Seems like you've uncovered some pretty interesting information Joe...
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joeflsts
Hazard to Others
Posts: 226
Registered: 14-1-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DJF90
Seems like you've uncovered some pretty interesting information Joe... |
Information that is available to anyone. Don't confuse my position I suspect that buying from The Chemical Closet is bad news if you are from the US,
if you buy restricted chemicals. It might even be a sting operation for all I know - but no one has proven it. @anotheronebitesthedust said that
he/she purchased from this place and was interogated by LEOs in Canada. I am asking for more details. In response this person told me (at least I
think it was me) to eat a penis.
Nice.
Joe
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anotheronebitesthedust
Hazard to Others
Posts: 189
Registered: 24-6-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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The IP I posted was from an email.
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joeflsts
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 14-1-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
The IP I posted was from an email. |
Post the email header.
Joe
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Suspicious
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"Post the email header."
Or at least SOMETHING that would be hard to fabricate. Even a story with lots of details would be better than what you have provided us thus far.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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pantone159
National Hazard
Posts: 586
Registered: 27-6-2006
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: desperate for shade
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Others have reported getting spam from TCC. (Not me though.) Where do those emails seem to have come from?
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