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Author: Subject: Unconventional Shaped Charges
grndpndr
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Iv searced this thread googled an perused a few books w/o luck finding any info on what the radius of a platter charge should be either steel or copper.As far as actually manufacturing one accurately even given the right dimension for a concave platter would be difficult a good mahinist MIGhT be ble to accurately turn a a concae lsteel/alumium plate be able to lathe turn an accurate plaltter.Better yet from standpoint of mass produtio the only practical relatively inexpensive method for mass produciondof after an expensve set up procedure manufacuring Dies etc would be a stamping mill.I did see an intersting example of the theory in practce was a quite small single handheld cevice that was dernate by sound of a passing vehicle and I believe a option for a pull type of fuse wth the capabiity of penetrting 40mm of armor palte at IIRC 25m ,.

[Edited on 25-6-2008 by grndpndr]
grndpndr
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Im not sure if posting this crosses he line as "practical" Info
Im having a dfficult time wapping my tiny inellect around the subtle apparent differences? But is this is published by Uncle sugar the reprinting of which shouldnt ruffle any feathers as the " (whomever he may be) man" originally OKed the relaese of info.These are the basic dimensons; 2-2.5 in diam. steel pipe and 3-4 in long open at both ends naturally.And finally another pipe,a thin one of copper tubing 1/2-3/4 dia.x
1.5 in long open at both ends.

Expected penetrtion fron this device and a high VOD HE is 1.5
in. depth x 1.5in wide.An approximate 1/4n standoffcapparently produces the best results with this size device. (+1! for yesterdays SCOTUS Heller decision!!)
grndpndr
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 Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr Iv searced this thread googled an perused a few books w/o luck finding any info on what the curvature of a platter charge should be.As far as actually manufacturing one accurately even given the right dimension for a concave platter would be a difficult project for a good machinist. [Edited on 25-6-2008 by grndpndr]

My apologys I mispoke, I meant to say the dimensions of the the curvature of a concave platter SC.
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I thought this was worth digging up.
shows what a "good" shaped charge/EFP does.

Released on WikiLeaks 2 days ago.
grndpndr
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Obvoiusly the curvature of engineered platter may not be a easily found as I had hoped.Sucessful as far as improvised platters arent difficult to construct within obvious limtations of preformed scrap which can be impressive but enginered platters with opimum curvature for optimum effect seem far more diffcult to discover compared to basic dimensions for heat charges.Perhaps ive been remiss in my research?Or the info is somewhat a more closely quarded secreT?If anyone has advice as to patents/basic dimensons of platter charges
It would be very much appreciated.Thus far scrap steel platters made from high pressure gas cylinder protective valve caps and steel conainers to fit have ben quite effective with approx 1/4LB AN/NM and approximate 3inx
3/8 thick steel platter formed the approprate projectile shape with minimal standoff of 16-18in the projctile seemed fully formed w/o benefit of any scientifc proof however diameter of penertion of approx 1.5 in an complete penetration of a 7/8 mil steel witness plate of some 30 lb projected 30-40 ft into the air.Plus spallng and cracking around the penetration point
indicated HV and potential for greater results with purpose designed SC platter charges including possiblitys of off route
potential whch is already used by militarys round the world

Any leads to basic shaped charge platter design particularly thickness,diameter,curvature of platter.Though due to imp nature of the inquiry ive negleced copper as a possibility due to incresed difficulty but the use of copper as a platter materal would also be welcomed. Sincerely,grndpndr.

the request could be consired parctical in nature leading to a weapon but in fact is really a theoretical queston though admittedly with practial applictions though few threads ive seen have NO practical application.Failing any help i can always reusme patent seaches/basic demolition/imp techniques perfectly legal I would assume being publshed by The governmet?
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What would be the result of using a really light, really hard metal like Ti or a really heavy, really soft metal like Pb? Presumably The cone angle for Ti would be large and the cone angle for lead would be very sharp. How would these factors influence the formation of the jet? Would the lead form a stream of drops or would the sharp angle prevent that? Would the Ti form a bullet? I've been trying to come to a sensible conclusion but you guys seem to be so much better informed than I am...

#261501 +(11351)- [X]

the \"bishop\" came to our church today
he was a fucken impostor
never once moved diagonally

courtesy of bash
grndpndr
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"By you guys"I hope you dont include me as im a novice in any and all facets of theoretical work/chemistry.I simply look at whats used by those who have the letters in back of thier names and millions in research s to do the heavy lifting.
IIRC lead is a poor choice why i cant answer but artices Ive read , sources I cannot recall disount lead as a HEAT charge cone material.Titanium i havnt even heard mentioned though I would imagine it doesnt have the density required.The only materials ive heard of in the context of affordable/effective cone materials are steel,glass and copper the material used depending on the expected target.Glass and steel seem to be used in very large,up to 40lb SC used to make holes in gravel-concrete roads/runways to depths suitable for insertion of cratering charges.While copper seems the material of choice for AP cone charges.While steel and copper are both used
in platter charges to produce different effects.The steel forms
projectiles of various complexity depending on design while copper platters seem to perform similarly to HEAT charges but with perhaps greater standoff ranges than smilarly sized heat charges.FWIW

For myself im curious why depleted uranium isnt an excellent platter for use in platter charges?perhaps an abnormal amt. of HE would be required to cause the DU platter to take the desired shape but DU is obviosly not brittle so it should be able to be formed and near diamond hard making penetration uncommon and velocity retention (range) exceptional.Peraps it is used or stockpiled for use if needed
but due to public perception not acnowleded?

[Edited on 16-12-2008 by grndpndr]
DNA
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hissingnoise
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It's been suggested that hemispherical, or broadly concave liners in shaped-charges are more effective for jet formation and penetration than conical liners.
Being lens-shaped, it would appear that this suggestion is correct, but that may not be the whole story.
Concave copper liners would certainly be easier to fabricate than the conical variety, but is the assertion true, does anyone know---axt perhaps?
Sidney Alford (and he *should* know) of "explosives.net", IIRC, still seems to be using conical liners.
grndpndr
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Not to be snide but suggested by who?As as im aware the near max penetration is achieved by a 45-60degree cone shaped copper
liner most of the professionally engineered platters penetrating in excess of 6
cone diameters.Homemade copper cones usually penetrate on the order of 2 cone diameters as do imp glass platters such as martini glasses although in militry use glass is usually confined to the larger shaped charges intended to make larger holes to accomodate cratering charges of 40lbs plus.Steel is also known to be used in these large SCs.Perhaps cost has something to do with the material used.Concave copper liners are normally used in EFPs with gret penetrating and and standoff properties.Steel and other had dense naterials such as steel is also used in EFPs
basically forming a solid projectile at a minmum of 1-2 km/sec
producing a hole in my experience approx 11/4in the size of the concave platter(3in) from ahout 18 in completely penetrating 5/8 target plates of 30-40 lbs producing spalling very similar to HV cannon projectiles with a garage 3in high [pressure gas cap cut to fit 3in steel tube container with welded steel bottom concetrating all available power into the platter device the 1/4lb AN/NM 70/30 hE w/#6caps tossing the 30lb test plate 40-50 ft skyward.These are home or rather garage imrovisations !using technlogy a bwildering array of EFPs copper and steel with the copper taking in seemingly both aspects of the efp and a SC with great standoffs.The steel EFPs are capable of forming an astounding array of projectle to suit different purposes,multiple targets etc also with substantial standoff.They at least present a serious chllenge to the HEAT SC.
DNA
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I am about the have some conically shaped glass liners to be made for me.
But I'm not sure which angle to take, I'm thinking around 60* but isn't there like more of an optimum?
grndpndr
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why not experiment with the glass liners at hand? Ive heard a glass funnel with the spout removed and the resulting small hollow plugged with epoxy etc.or a martini glass or other beverage container with the stem removed can make very good liners. I think only by experimentation will you discover which liner angle will work best with your device.
If Im not mistaken there is a drawing of what appears to be a well thought out device using a 50mm glass funnel as a cone and otc PVC plumbing components in this thread.Besides it wouldnt hurt to read the entire post and then some if your expecting a device that works at all.
DNA
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I was just wondering if there is a ideal thickness. I can have some perfectly conically shaped liners made so there is no need for martini glasses with epoxy etc.
grndpndr
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A 50 MM glass funnel/with the hole plugged w AL and glue worked well enough for AXT to penetrate 2 in steel witness plate with clean entrance and exit holes.Not bad for an improvised device made from OTC components.
Microtek
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1.6 g PETN with a 10 mm cone made from rolled up copper foil penetrated 2 cm stacked steel for me. I believe that the good efficiency even at these small charge sizes are due to the fact that I used my lathe to make a charge with quite high axial symmetry.
So, I would suggest looking for a way to maximize charge accuracy before varying other parameters too much, as I think that it is a more critical design variable than most others.
gnitseretni
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a cone from copper foil.. I like that! But how do you pack the PETN to a high density without the cone collapsing on ya? I mean how strong a cone can you make from foil?!
Microtek
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The cone had practically no mechanical strength. I made the charges as follows:

The bodies were Al tubing, 12 mm OD, 10 mm ID. An end plug was made from epoxy (over a placeholder for the charge to ensure a square inside bottom). When cured this endplug was drilled in the lathe to produce a 4 mm axial hole for the cap. A 4 mm mandrel was machined and placed through the cap hole (so acting as placeholder for the cap). The body was then placed in a sleeve I had made for the pressing operation. The best way I can describe it is by saying that the charge body as described was held much like a cartridge casing in the chamber of a gun.
This allowed me to use a ram which was contured like the inside of the cone to press the charge. Then, with most of the pressing done, I placed the cone on the tip of the ram (a bit like a condom if you will), and finished the pressing operation. When the ram was withdrawn, the copper cone was left in the cavity.
I had calculated beforehand how much PETN was required to get to 1,7 g/cc, given the space in the body, so I just kept spooning it in and pressing until the required amount was in there.

In passing I might mention that this rather elaborate setup was made to experiment with pressed powder cones. I used copper powder made by reducing CuO with hydrogen, but the results were very dscouraging. That was why I did the foil based charge as a comparison.
grndpndr
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I had read that one way to initiate large AT HEAT charges was to make a minature SC to detonate on impact in the nose firing a jet to the rear of the projectile initiating a detonator.Im afraid I cannot recall the source as I expect to catch flak but how many of you have photographic memories or record sources for items of interest.Im well aware it sounds counterintuitivebut more Ideas have been tried and ultimately abandoned than are in use.

Microtek,1.6g or 1.6 oz PETN?

[Edited on 12-2-2009 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 12-2-2009 by grndpndr]
Microtek
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1.6 gram. The charge was the size of a 9mm casing.
grndpndr
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Impressed!
DNA
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I know of the experiment of AXT, but I mean is there any info about the glass thickness from AXT himself maybe?
I don't see him replying here or answering to a U2U message...
It would be a waste of time to test all kind of different glass thicknesses and angles and diameters while maybe that info is already available.
If not then I'll test these conditions and parameters and post them here. I'm curious about what a perfectly shaped cone of glass will do compared to a improvised martiniglass cone.
SAM4CH
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Different Target!

If I have copper lined cone "I meant same cone-same explosive charge" but different Targets! Is there simple relation between penetration depth in each Lead Target, Aluminum Target, Copper Target, Steel Target?
I like to get simple equation which has density and tensile for each taget.. I am so tired in this simple equation unless now!!

Sam
gnitseretni
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Has anyone here ever wondered why we're so obsessed with trying to find a way to make perfect cones(or hemispheres for that matter since they both just make holes)? I mean, suppose you do find a way to make perfect cones/hemispheres, all they're good for is blow tiny holes in metal plates. I mean I know its fun and all, but.. in the end it's just a hole, ya know?! I mean, if you ask me, LSC have the potential to be alot more fun because you can get different results just by changing the design.
Anyways, I for one hope to see more LSC posts.
grndpndr
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I on the other hand I wonder whats the attraction with LSCs

I dont see what real advantage they have over a tamped line charge or cutting torch.

Each to our interests is what s important I dont dis anyones interest unless it infringes on my own rights or anothers.
Be a real boring,backward, stagnant enviroment if we all had similar interests.If im not mistaken there have been many posts here dealing with all SCs, LSCs included.All ya gotta do is post

Im sorry but the last sentence of your post may reveal why you dont find CSCs interesting there are as many variables in cone SC if not more than LSC designs.

[Edited on 16-2-2009 by grndpndr]
gnitseretni
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It's not that I'm not interested in CSCs, it's just that this afternoon it suddenly hit me in that all I can do with CSC's is either widen the hole or go deeper(or both but that would require a rather large amount of HE). With CSCs the results are always the same: a hole. Big, small, wide or narrow.. doesn't matter, in the end it's still just a hole. With LSCs you can get a little more creative as to what the result will be, I think.

I'm not arguing, I just hadn't looked at it like that before But the fact that I haven't been able to construct perfect cones probably doesn't help
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special topics » Energetic Materials » Unconventional Shaped Charges Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Detritus   » Test Forum