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Author: Subject: Unconventional Shaped Charges
greenlight
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Wow that plate looks exactly like an EFP result I did using a 30 mm diameter liner and 30 grams powder PETN which didn't work as well as yours.
Look at the attached pictures, same splash of copper around one side of the entry and same dimple on the other side.
I think it is from using powder explosive and not pressing to a high density and mine did not hit 100% straight which I think makes that splash effect on one side where the slug impacted first.
Did you press yours and was the target standing up straight so it was a dead-on hit?

[Edited on 14-8-2015 by greenlight]

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nux vomica
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Just hand pressed to pack the charge evenly , I mount everything on the board so it stays square to the target, I wonder if you can plasticize annmal ?
greenlight
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I think that would be the problem then, same effect as me when I was hand pressing dry PETN.
Plastic is like the Rolls Royce of HE'S. High density and no need to press

I have never heard of plastique ANNMAL only AN based slurries. You can always try it.
The only potential problem I could think of would be the hygroscopiscity of the Ammonium nitrate so it would have to be stored very dry. Maybe the binder would seal it in away from moisture.
Another problem could be the NM evaporating from the plastic mass. It would be a very volatile PE if it worked that's for sure.

[Edited on 14-8-2015 by greenlight]

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nux vomica
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Yeh I think it would be make it as you need it type of mix, I will see if pib dissolves in nitro methane tomorrow, I might back off the aluminum to allow for the pib as well.

[Edited on 14-8-2015 by nux vomica]
greenlight
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Yeah definitely exclude the Al powder.
Post results of how it goes.

It seems like ypu have the liner angle worked put now, definitely looks like an EFP slug impact and not a jet now.
Cheers, greenlight

[Edited on 14-8-2015 by greenlight]

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George Wald
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paper hole 110

I told you that it flips out sideways ...:-) Anyways, Green, nice piece of work. // No aluminum. Reduces brisance. Liptakov.
greenlight
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Yes you were correct.
Here is revised soft recovery system that I will test soon
Each square is a foam container 1m long.

[Edited on 15-8-2015 by greenlight]

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NeonPulse
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 Quote: Originally posted by nux vomica Just hand pressed to pack the charge evenly , I mount everything on the board so it stays square to the target, I wonder if you can plasticize annmal ?

I doubt that would work since it would just suck up water from the air and ruin it. Stick with the methyl ricinoleate idea- if you can get it right you can end up with a very respectable plastic and even lower the binder content which would give greater VOD but with great handling properties.
But Even with as little as 8-9% as a phlegmatizer you can gt a nicely pressed dense charge.
I am going to have a go at EFP's and see what i can come up with. feeling inspired by the past few pages and Its been a while since I've made anything that worked well, The last being a CSC filled with cast pentolite. EFP's and shaped charges are so much more than simply "setting off a charge" with a real process involved and precision in their manufacture- well as much precision as can be had without a kitted out machine shop anyways.

Where there is a will
there is a way.

AllCheMystery!
nux vomica
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Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse
 Quote: Originally posted by nux vomica Just hand pressed to pack the charge evenly , I mount everything on the board so it stays square to the target, I wonder if you can plasticize annmal ?

I doubt that would work since it would just suck up water from the air and ruin it. Stick with the methyl ricinoleate idea- if you can get it right you can end up with a very respectable plastic and even lower the binder content which would give greater VOD but with great handling properties.
But Even with as little as 8-9% as a phlegmatizer you can gt a nicely pressed dense charge.
I am going to have a go at EFP's and see what i can come up with. feeling inspired by the past few pages and Its been a while since I've made anything that worked well, The last being a CSC filled with cast pentolite. EFP's and shaped charges are so much more than simply "setting off a charge" with a real process involved and precision in their manufacture- well as much precision as can be had without a kitted out machine shop anyways.

Yeah I suppose the annmal plastic is a bit of a brainfart idea, tried dissolving pib in nitro methane no go it just softened it slightly, nm will gel cordite though.

Just been finishing off my first methyl Ricinoleate synthesis, only a small batch of 50 ml castor oil but I got over 45 ml of methyl Ricinoleate out of the separation funnel

Looks like everyone is getting the itch to try these efp,s I suppose I am lucky to be able to fabricate tooling but if I didn't I would still give it a go nuxy

[Edited on 16-8-2015 by nux vomica]

NeonPulse
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45ml methylricinoleate is plenty- i still have a large portion of mine left after making a few batches of plastic and that was only 30mls it goes a long way and the effort is well worth it its just the continued rolling session that saps the fun out of it.
An idea i had today for catching the slug is as simple as orientation of the charge so that it points down- like the EFP on a post: bang through the target and into the ground. perhaps the ground could be dug up to a depth of 600mm -1m and the soil loosely replaced perhaps with some ply sheets every 100mm with soil sanwiched between to slow it down a bit.
Failing that spend up \$ and get a few slabs of ballistics gel A la Mythbusters.

Where there is a will
there is a way.

AllCheMystery!
greenlight
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I think the ply sheets and soil would still deform the slug. You need something lightweight low density (sawdust/foam/etc..).

You can make a product quite similar to ballistics gel with cheap gelatine:

I don't know if it would deform the slug or not because it cause bullets to yaw when they pass through but am unsure about something heavier like a EFP projectile.

[Edited on 16-8-2015 by greenlight]

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nux vomica
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60° copper cone etn plastic

I pulled out a nice piece of 1 1/4 steel from my work scrap bin recently so I used one of my 60° copper cones with 5 grams of etn plastic to have a go at penetrating through it.
It didn't make it but it bulged the back of the plate
I used 52mm standoff the cone dia was 15mm etn had 10%pib 3% methyl Ricinoleate cheers nuxy.

[Edited on 21-8-2015 by nux vomica]
ecos
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I just have one question , where do you get the copper cone from ? is it home-made? if yes , please let me know how you made it.
greenlight
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I also have a question, have you measured the density of your plastic explosive yet nux?

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nux vomica
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 Quote: Originally posted by ecos I just have one question , where do you get the copper cone from ? is it home-made? if yes , please let me know how you made it.

Homemade the first two cones are formed in the tube on the right which has a urethane rubber pad in it, the sixty degree is formed in the white plastic tool you anneal between pressings and the bigger the cone the more stages need to be used to allow the copper to shrink gradually .

Greenlight I did a quick and dirty sg measurement by cutting a plastic 5cc syringe off at the 1 cc mark then packing to 2 cc I get 1.36 gm per cc. nuxy

[Edited on 21-8-2015 by nux vomica]
greenlight
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Nice, are u going to re-test to try and make it all the way through the plate.
Maybe more standoff will result in complete penetration. Sweet spot should be between 4-6× diameter of cone.

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Nice work nuxy! Maybe try different thickness cones while keeping else the same to try to improve results.
PHILOU Zrealone
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 Quote: Originally posted by nux vomica Yeah I suppose the annmal plastic is a bit of a brainfart idea, tried dissolving pib in nitro methane no go it just softened it slightly, nm will gel cordite though. Just been finishing off my first methyl Ricinoleate synthesis, only a small batch of 50 ml castor oil but I got over 45 ml of methyl Ricinoleate out of the separation funnel Looks like everyone is getting the itch to try these efp,s I suppose I am lucky to be able to fabricate tooling but if I didn't I would still give it a go nuxy

NM do form a gel with nitrocellulose...
So you should be able to plasticize AN-NM-Al with it and some ETN. The plastic will become brittle if let in open air due to the volatility of NM what is close to that of water.
--> storage in closed recipient and remalaxing before use.

PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

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NeonPulse
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Nux, with a harder casing and slid attachment of the cone in the casing you should be easily able to penetrate even two layers of that thickness steel. much easier working with the ricinoleate hey? The way the entry is elongated instead of a single round hole is a problem i have had in the past and its due to either the det being off centre or the cone is not totally centre that will obviously reduce penetration slightly too. Great work though!

Where there is a will
there is a way.

AllCheMystery!
nux vomica
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Nice, are u going to re-test to try and make it all the way through the plate.
Maybe more standoff will result in complete penetration. Sweet spot should be between 4-6× diameter of cone.

Thanks Greenlight I am going to have another go I will mod the setup slightly , 4x standoff it is then.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice work nuxy! Maybe try different thickness cones while keeping else the same to try to improve results.
Thanks Gnitseretni I will try that one soon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
NM do form a gel with nitrocellulose...
So you should be able to plasticize AN-NM-Al with it and some ETN. The plastic will become brittle if let in open air due to the volatility of NM what is close to that of water.
--> storage in closed recipient and remalaxing before use.
PHILOU Zrealone I have some cordite dissolving in nm at the moment I will use some as soon as I have done some more 60 cone degree testing
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nux, with a harder casing and slid attachment of the cone in the casing you should be easily able to penetrate even two layers of that thickness steel. much easier working with the ricinoleate hey? The way the entry is elongated instead of a single round hole is a problem i have had in the past and its due to either the det being off centre or the cone is not totally centre that will obviously reduce penetration slightly too. Great work though!
Thanks Neon pulse I am trying to stay away from metal casings if possible ( shrapnel ) Ricinoleate works great thanks , all my setups are machined on a lathe so I don't think misalignment is the problem I am changing the plastic etn charge height to further away from the cone top and angling in from the ebw head hopefully this might work better.
Cheers everyone nuxy

[Edited on 22-8-2015 by nux vomica]
greenlight
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A design similar to this nux?

The added explosive height will help as well I think as a conical shaped charge needs more height for shockwave formation/shape before it hits the liner than an EFP does.

[Edited on 22-8-2015 by greenlight]

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nux vomica
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 Quote: Originally posted by greenlight A design similar to this nux? The added explosive height will help as well I think as a conical shaped charge needs more height for shockwave formation/shape before it hits the liner than an EFP does. [Edited on 22-8-2015 by greenlight]

Thats the basic idea I am thinking of Greenlight more head hight for shockwave formation / stability, what does part 20 and 21 do in the patient you attached.

[Edited on 22-8-2015 by nux vomica]
greenlight
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The patent is for a shaped charge which a radioactive tracer isotope cap can be placed on the tip of the cone which emits gamma radiation in the resulting hole. By measuring the gamma radiation in the hole, apparently a measurement of depth can be found. The cap is shown in part 20 but can be excluded from your design as I don't think it would be needed.
Part 21 is showing centred placement of the blasting cap/detonator.

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nux vomica
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No gamma needed here I think I will know if there is a hole in my target
nux vomica
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Ok I have made another shaped charge up, I get 6 mm of etn plastic hight above the cone conpared tothe last shot.

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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special topics » Energetic Materials » Unconventional Shaped Charges Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues