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Author: Subject: Unconventional Shaped Charges
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[*] posted on 29-6-2020 at 08:33


Quote: Originally posted by greenlight  
Thankyou..
The next variable to be changed was indeed the flyer thickness up to 2mm.
The projectile from that test did hit in one spot with minimal breakup, the other marks are from previous tests.
Unfortunately it hit on the very top and transferred a third of its energy off the damn plate:mad:



a simple LASER pointer will help you to aim the impact point on target. If feasible you can try out variable thickness to improve penetration. Sof iron will be a good option for coherent projectile as it has better resilience.
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[*] posted on 6-9-2020 at 21:56


I did have one that I always used to use but the battery went dead that day so I was forced to try and sight it by eye



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[*] posted on 5-10-2020 at 12:02


A .45 jacket soldered into half inch pipe with 4.5 grams of melt cast ETN.

[Edited on 5-10-2020 by Brightthermite]

[Edited on 5-10-2020 by Brightthermite]

IMG_0697.JPG - 2.1MB

[Edited on 5-10-2020 by Brightthermite]

IMG_0695.JPG - 1.6MBIMG_0699.JPG - 3.1MB
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[*] posted on 31-1-2022 at 09:43


Found this new paper on truncated charge shapes. The addition of a thicker plate behind the cone allows for a slower forming (think a subtle push of the cone into its inverse jet) and sharper jet that has better properties than its original counterpart. It acts as sort of an explosive lens-version of a shape charge. Maybe even incorporating the design of a lens into the shape charge might allow for tighter compression and inversion of the cone. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/prep.202100162
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[*] posted on 31-1-2023 at 08:47


https://youtu.be/XtDoPvaCbFQ
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[*] posted on 1-2-2023 at 04:55


Quote: Originally posted by specialactivitieSK  
https://youtu.be/XtDoPvaCbFQ


Very little of what video is coming out of that conflict is exactly what it appears or is described as.

I note in one video segment, someone is just walking along next to the "death ray" and just KEEPS WALKING NORMALY?! I assure you, IRL someone in that position would hit the dirt or go into a higher gear, be it away from kaboom or towards his squad mates smoking remains, not just keep plodding.

From video quality, could be CG animation.

From detail level visible, even if real, could equally likely be Ukrainians getting hit. I've found several videos where Uk propagandists changed titles on some RF drone video of their guys getting whomped and claimed "glorious victory over the evil moskals"! Easy to do when they're carrying same weapons, wearing pretty much the same gear and at least initially were operating very similar vehicles.




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Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

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[*] posted on 1-2-2023 at 05:55


Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456  
Found this new paper on truncated charge shapes. The addition of a thicker plate behind the cone allows for a slower forming (think a subtle push of the cone into its inverse jet) and sharper jet that has better properties than its original counterpart. It acts as sort of an explosive lens-version of a shape charge. Maybe even incorporating the design of a lens into the shape charge might allow for tighter compression and inversion of the cone. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/prep.202100162


Obvious next step is test with a truncated 90° cone primary liner and a proportionally designed disc as secondary liner sitting on top-

A stupid simple bit of machining to accomplish that claimed 70+% increase in depth.




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3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

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[*] posted on 1-2-2023 at 08:26


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
Quote: Originally posted by specialactivitieSK  
https://youtu.be/XtDoPvaCbFQ


Very little of what video is coming out of that conflict is exactly what it appears or is described as.



You are absolutely correct. I belive both the title and the level of the comments below the video have one common cause.

It's posted by The Sun ! My expectancies from tabloids are pretty low ;)




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[*] posted on 4-2-2023 at 23:13


one youtuber that oftenly does shaped charges had a video where he had a liner that was made out of copper PLA wire- 3D printed copper cone
90% copper POWDER and 10% PLA plastic
the rolls are iirc 10m/60 euros- spicy.
it doesnt have to be pure metal, the liner displayed very great properties, maybe better than solid copper plate liner even
now, this opens up many possibilities for the amateur community- im a practical man. why bother with 3D printing if this mixture can maybe be heated up and pressed- CAST? low temperature cast??

i came up with these ideas before i got out of bed this sunday:
1. pressed copper powder
2. pressed copper powder with glue or binder
3. CAST copper powder/lowmelting plastic
4. aluminium foil
5. pressed copper wires into cone
6. glass powder/sand

1/2. first up copper powder is very easy, CuCl2 (HCl + Cu - set and forget) + Al (a bit of HCl seems to help this reaction)
or copper salts + ascorbic acid or other reducing agents
one time i managed to make what seemed to be nano copper powder- the colloidal community seems to gatekeep their methods for making colloidal copper because of toxicity- nanopowder is probably unnessecary and would require more binder anyhow
as for binder, i think something as basic as milk could work as it dries up and the proteins in milk gets quite hard, PIB works for RDX in a ratio of about 5% PIB- tar, asphalt, clay, pine resin? a angled steel rod could be covered with aluminium foil for very easy release of a somewhat sticky pressed cone
maybe a cone could be pressed then inserted into a spotwelder, i have seen some small devices made out of tiny little brass bb's that was somehow welded together- possibly pressed and spotwelded, they are used as suppressors for pressurized air systems - a spot welder is easy to fabricate from microwave

3. now.. PLA or maybe even polyethylene could be interesting, hotglue maybe even for a very low melting combination of copper powder and plastic, acrylic doesnt quite melt but rather decomposes if you go much above glass-transition temperature, milk cartons and plastic bags are oftenly made of polyethylene

4. since copper powder/plastic does work- why wouldnt something of similar quality work, aluminium foil? only chance this wouldnt i see is the aluminium oxide which is quite high in quantity since the aluminium foil is thin- and relative to aluminium metal there will be a lot more aluminium oxide than in typical liners- but if this can work we have really wrecked the system in terms of DIY shaped charge liners- having pressed and rammed much aluminium foil into discs for recycling i remember it to reach about 2g/cm3, these discs may then be pressed into cones- or just from start rammed into cones- BBQ / grill aluminium foil is a bit thicker, this may be utilized instead of regular aluminium foil

5. copper wires are found in most cables- selfexplanatory, but might require a lot more pressure - can be done somewhat with wood and a hammer, maybe several tonnes of force and a small diameter would make for some very nice cones? naturally, some cables also contain aluminium- typical super pure aluminium so very soft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTlD6rvQGbA

6. glass/sand, glass is easy to powder, if that can be used in a kinda binded state it would be very easy to manufacture whatever shape and especially very cheap, although glass seems to be less effective than metal liners

seeing that ETN can be pressed to about 1.2g/cm3- yielding approximately 6250m/s - then theres not much reason to go for fancy stuff, by my opinion increasing VoD shouldnt really make the whole thing much better, too much brisance could maybe crush the liner? i recall nitromethane mixtures being used for shaped charges and they also reach just about 6000m/s

oh- heres the 3D printed liner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBruJJfs8fI


edit: the video with the death ray is actually an type of anti tank mine that shoots out EFP projectiles, so theyre kinda being hit by anti-armor RPG's or shells, in some of the clips you can see it flying in, this explains the accuracy and why its even an anti armor ammunition fired at personnel

[Edited on 5-2-2023 by Antiswat]

yet another edit: a jackhammer could possibly be used to hammer/press cones- steel rod with 45* tip, then a hole drilled in the back of this to insert jackhammer bit, a bolt with impact driver and a nut could also work to get a very high pressure to press foil or powders with

[Edited on 5-2-2023 by Antiswat]




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 6-2-2023 at 05:51


I saw that video, and frankly, 48mm penetration from 120g HE is not very impressive. I got 19mm from 1.6g PETN using a handrolled sheet of copper 12mm diameter at the base of the cone. Much easier than working with powders, and more robust as well. I have done some experimenting with pressed copper powder, but didn't get much penetration. Aluminum is not a very good liner for shaped charges, its density is too low (the penetration depth is dependent on the ratio of liner density to target density).
Sintered liners do work, and are used in oil drilling to perforate the well lining to allow the oil to flow out. The reason they use sintered powder in this instance is simply that it doesn't leave a carrot (the solid slug formed from the base of the cone) in the hole, as that would reduce the oil flow.
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[*] posted on 6-2-2023 at 08:03


@Antiswat: Just read through all your points and two things come to mind.
- Find information on the shaped charges used in the oil industry. You'll find some common ideas with what you said. Though I'd be surprised if you dont know all that already :)
- About your fifth point, if you got all this pressure, why not sinter your powder ?

About the video it appears to be a DM22 mine with a tandem shaped charge, not an EFP. Might be wrong though.

Edit: of course it's only after posting that I see Microtek's comments ! Woopsie !
Microtek, it's interesting to compare penetration values given for EFP"s and shaped charges. It's not a surprise that EFP's are worst, but they can be set off from further without disrupting the jet. Every tool its has it's function right ?

[Edited on 6-2-2023 by Herr Haber]




The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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[*] posted on 6-2-2023 at 10:46


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
@Antiswat: Just read through all your points and two things come to mind.
- Find information on the shaped charges used in the oil industry. You'll find some common ideas with what you said. Though I'd be surprised if you dont know all that already :)
- About your fifth point, if you got all this pressure, why not sinter your powder ?

About the video it appears to be a DM22 mine with a tandem shaped charge, not an EFP. Might be wrong though.

Edit: of course it's only after posting that I see Microtek's comments ! Woopsie !
Microtek, it's interesting to compare penetration values given for EFP"s and shaped charges. It's not a surprise that EFP's are worst, but they can be set off from further without disrupting the jet. Every tool its has it's function right ?

[Edited on 6-2-2023 by Herr Haber]


im looking on google and im not finding much about oil industry shaped charges- seems they just use copper sheet metal cones, .. i mean- they got plenty money?

sinter, wouldnt that require both heat and pressure? my concept is to press it and haveit cure- no need for a gas torch, im sure it also requires many many tonnes, last i looked into it, it was way out of my hands to sinter anything- maybe unless if you use explosives to-.. sinter
can you extrapolate on the things you have found in oil industry's shaped charges? i know shaped charges for rocks are normally aluminium cones as they give plenty penetration

edit: nvm i see microtek already blurted out the oil industry's secret

@microtek 48mm really? didnt they claim it worked even better than their actual copper cone- or at least very close to that? how did you roll that copper up anyhow, .. did it overlap, did you solder it? 1.6g and 19mm sounds very impressive, it must have been quite a sharp cone i imagine? how thick was this liner?

[Edited on 6-2-2023 by Antiswat]




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 6-2-2023 at 20:52


Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
one youtuber that oftenly does shaped charges had a video where he had a liner that was made out of copper PLA wire- 3D printed copper cone
90% copper POWDER and 10% PLA plastic
the rolls are iirc 10m/60 euros- spicy.
it doesnt have to be pure metal, the liner displayed very great properties, maybe better than solid copper plate liner even
now, this opens up many possibilities for the amateur community- im a practical man. why bother with 3D printing if this mixture can maybe be heated up and pressed- CAST? low temperature cast??

i came up with these ideas before i got out of bed this sunday:
1. pressed copper powder
2. pressed copper powder with glue or binder
3. CAST copper powder/lowmelting plastic
4. aluminium foil
5. pressed copper wires into cone
6. glass powder/sand

1/2. first up copper powder is very easy, CuCl2 (HCl + Cu - set and forget) + Al (a bit of HCl seems to help this reaction)
or copper salts + ascorbic acid or other reducing agents
one time i managed to make what seemed to be nano copper powder- the colloidal community seems to gatekeep their methods for making colloidal copper because of toxicity- nanopowder is probably unnessecary and would require more binder anyhow
as for binder, i think something as basic as milk could work as it dries up and the proteins in milk gets quite hard, PIB works for RDX in a ratio of about 5% PIB- tar, asphalt, clay, pine resin? a angled steel rod could be covered with aluminium foil for very easy release of a somewhat sticky pressed cone
maybe a cone could be pressed then inserted into a spotwelder, i have seen some small devices made out of tiny little brass bb's that was somehow welded together- possibly pressed and spotwelded, they are used as suppressors for pressurized air systems - a spot welder is easy to fabricate from microwave

3. now.. PLA or maybe even polyethylene could be interesting, hotglue maybe even for a very low melting combination of copper powder and plastic, acrylic doesnt quite melt but rather decomposes if you go much above glass-transition temperature, milk cartons and plastic bags are oftenly made of polyethylene

4. since copper powder/plastic does work- why wouldnt something of similar quality work, aluminium foil? only chance this wouldnt i see is the aluminium oxide which is quite high in quantity since the aluminium foil is thin- and relative to aluminium metal there will be a lot more aluminium oxide than in typical liners- but if this can work we have really wrecked the system in terms of DIY shaped charge liners- having pressed and rammed much aluminium foil into discs for recycling i remember it to reach about 2g/cm3, these discs may then be pressed into cones- or just from start rammed into cones- BBQ / grill aluminium foil is a bit thicker, this may be utilized instead of regular aluminium foil

5. copper wires are found in most cables- selfexplanatory, but might require a lot more pressure - can be done somewhat with wood and a hammer, maybe several tonnes of force and a small diameter would make for some very nice cones? naturally, some cables also contain aluminium- typical super pure aluminium so very soft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTlD6rvQGbA

6. glass/sand, glass is easy to powder, if that can be used in a kinda binded state it would be very easy to manufacture whatever shape and especially very cheap, although glass seems to be less effective than metal liners

seeing that ETN can be pressed to about 1.2g/cm3- yielding approximately 6250m/s - then theres not much reason to go for fancy stuff, by my opinion increasing VoD shouldnt really make the whole thing much better, too much brisance could maybe crush the liner? i recall nitromethane mixtures being used for shaped charges and they also reach just about 6000m/s

oh- heres the 3D printed liner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBruJJfs8fI


edit: the video with the death ray is actually an type of anti tank mine that shoots out EFP projectiles, so theyre kinda being hit by anti-armor RPG's or shells, in some of the clips you can see it flying in, this explains the accuracy and why its even an anti armor ammunition fired at personnel

[Edited on 5-2-2023 by Antiswat]

yet another edit: a jackhammer could possibly be used to hammer/press cones- steel rod with 45* tip, then a hole drilled in the back of this to insert jackhammer bit, a bolt with impact driver and a nut could also work to get a very high pressure to press foil or powders with

[Edited on 5-2-2023 by Antiswat]


I saw that video. It was 80 percent copper powder. They quoted it wrong. It is hard to duplicate the filament. They were wrong, it was not better than solid copper, which should get 6 diameter penetration… they got less than two with the printed ones.

I agree, the 3D printed filament is an interesting idea. I was really excited about it for a while, but couldn’t justify the costs for the filament. I ultimately determined SLA is better for this application than filament. Keep in mind 80 percent copper by weight is only half the density of real copper.
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[*] posted on 6-2-2023 at 23:30


@ Antiswat: It's possible the printet copper cone worked better than the solid copper one they made, but that just means something about their design was suboptimal. About my rolled up cone, I cut out a circle from a thin (0.2 mm IIRC - it was a long time ago) copper sheet, and made a cut along the radius. Then I used small needle nosed pliers to roll it up to make a double layer all the way round. You can do the same with a piece of paper to illustrate the principle. I didnt solder it, but I might have used some glue between the layers to keep them together. As I said, it was a long time ago and I can't really remember.
A little math and the angle of the cone comes out at 60 degrees (ignoring the thickness of the liner). I wasn't expecting much from the charge, but placed it above a stack of 4 mm mild steel plates to see how many it could penetrate. I think I used abut 1 diameter standoff. Without doubt, some penetration was lost in the small gaps between the plates.
Nevertheless, given that I got less than two diameters of penetration (and as MineMan says, 6-7 diameters is achievable), the only impressive things about my experiment was the small scale since SCs generally perform better at larger scales, and of course that such relatively good performance could be had from a simple rolled up sheet.

@ Herr Haber: Yes, EFPs are certainly both interesting and useful in some situations. I was just commenting on the video about 3d printed copper powder cones.


[Edited on 7-2-2023 by Microtek]
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[*] posted on 7-2-2023 at 12:01


They make a 2.3 mil thick pure copper tape with electrically conductive adhesive, commonly used to line and shield the electronics compartments of electric guitars. I suspect it would lend itself to a multiple layer buildup to a desired thickness- or a single layer might be formed into a cone as a substrate for electoplating to desired thickness without the discontinuity between layers.



Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

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[*] posted on 7-2-2023 at 13:12


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
They make a 2.3 mil thick pure copper tape with electrically conductive adhesive, commonly used to line and shield the electronics compartments of electric guitars. I suspect it would lend itself to a multiple layer buildup to a desired thickness- or a single layer might be formed into a cone as a substrate for electoplating to desired thickness without the discontinuity between layers.


Bert! Your a true handyman in this field!
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[*] posted on 7-2-2023 at 16:30


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
They make a 2.3 mil thick pure copper tape with electrically conductive adhesive, commonly used to line and shield the electronics compartments of electric guitars. I suspect it would lend itself to a multiple layer buildup to a desired thickness- or a single layer might be formed into a cone as a substrate for electoplating to desired thickness without the discontinuity between layers.


Bert! Your a true handyman in this field!


"If the women don't find you handsome, at least they can find you handy"

https://www.amazon.com/ELK-Copper-Foil-Conductive-Adhesive/d...



813CMYw7CIL._AC_SL1500_.jpg - 281kB




Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

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[*] posted on 8-2-2023 at 14:06


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  


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