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Author: Subject: H2O2 Restriction
nodrog19
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[*] posted on 3-7-2008 at 14:40
H2O2 Restriction


[Edited on 3-7-2008 by nodrog19]
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roamingnome
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[*] posted on 3-7-2008 at 15:02


i would suspect that the ammonium nitrate would be the more restricted over the two fore-mentioned chemicals though......

dont you know that arbeiten macht frei.... and restrictions make liberty
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nodrog19
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[*] posted on 3-7-2008 at 15:18


No i have never heard that. Its true though. They are going to have to ban all nitrates, azides, peroxides, chlorates, iodates, bromates, dichromates, bromides, chlorides (yeah right), iodides, fuels (fuel-air). Dont forget matches, road flares, and fire works.
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F2Chemist
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[*] posted on 3-7-2008 at 16:56


nodrog...read a history book. I've seen the sign that roamingnome is refering to (definitely one of the most depressing days I've ever had). If you knew where that phrase comes from, you'd know that he was being quite sarcastic.
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roamingnome
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[*] posted on 3-7-2008 at 18:13


yes a bit sarcastic today, ive seen that sign as well

i find that America is like the old TV show
Hogan’s Heroes

we are definitely in a concentration like camp, but you can get away with alot. Of course you can also find the "fence" real fast. Aquiring most chemicals will lead to the fence real fast
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JohnWW
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[*] posted on 3-7-2008 at 18:46


Quote:
Originally posted by nodrog19
No i have never heard that. Its true though. They are going to have to ban all nitrates, azides, peroxides, chlorates, iodates, bromates, dichromates, bromides, chlorides (yeah right), iodides, fuels (fuel-air). Dont forget matches, road flares, and fire works.

What about fulminates (isocyanates, which are isoelectronic with azides), perchlorates, periodates, perbromates, permanganates, peroxysulfates, peroxyborates, peroxycarbonates, peroxynitrates, ozonides, superoxides, then? Also, what about tetrazole and its derivatives, and pentazole? What about salts of ClF6+? All those can be used as explosives, either on their own or mixed with combustible substances.

As for chlorides, bromides, and iodides, they would be quite impossible to ban, being extractable from sea-water, and as rock salt, rock potash, caliche, and other water-soluble minerals deposited through the dessication of landlocked seas. Even if sales of table salt are banned, anyone can easily obtain one's own NaCl by the evaporation of sea-water (although it would be technical-grade, with impurities due to deposition of less soluble alkali and alkaline-earth metal halides such as LiCl, NaF, CaF2, and also CaSO4). I think they must be worried about the potential for electrolysis of NaCl solutions with high voltages to produce chlorates and perchlorates. And one can make one's own NCl3, a dangerously high explosive, by the reaction of ammonia solution (from a supermarket) with hypochlorite bleach solution (also available from supermarkets, or pool suppliers).

[Edited on 5-7-08 by JohnWW]
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 4-7-2008 at 07:13


Just because something is "impossible to ban" does not mean that the US or other governments won't try it. In fact, I believe that iodides will be the first halide salts to be at least severly restricted in the US. They already watch sales of iodides. To them, restriction is the logical next step.

H2O2 has already been all over the news. Various media outlets have already "called" for its restriction. I am still absolutely shocked that I can still obtain 30% H2O2 from my local hardware store. It will not last long, though. Mark my words.

Happy Fourth of July! If only it still meant something (besides having cook outs and "blowing stuff up"). We should create another Independence Day. Independence from this restriction happy, opressive shell of a government that it is now. In fact, for the 4th (or any other day) I only fly a thirteen star flag specifically for that reason. It was good when it started but it is no longer.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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jgourlay
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[*] posted on 9-7-2008 at 12:12
H202 Trade name


What's the trade name of the hardware store H2O2?
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Fleaker
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[*] posted on 9-7-2008 at 15:28


Baquacil. It's 27,5% H2O2 stabilised with phosphoric acid.



Neither flask nor beaker.


"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
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[*] posted on 19-7-2008 at 18:50


Quote:
Originally posted by Fleaker
Baquacil. It's 27,5% H2O2 stabilised with phosphoric acid.


The industrial process for producing 30% H2O2 is to add ethyl acetate to standard OTC 3%, then remove the ester as the water azeotrope via distillation. You have to know what you're doing & monitor your process as close to 100% H2O2 is explosive & 30% or higher will burn flesh.




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roamingnome
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[*] posted on 19-7-2008 at 19:47


while pricing ethyl acetate for Gold ion extraction i find that it is pricey.

i think when "industry" wants H2O2 they dont really worry about "OTC"

no???
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 25-7-2008 at 17:45


What do you consider pricey? It's a little less than double the price of gasoline if purchased in small quantities. In 55 gallon drums it's a bit cheaper. It's about as much as toluene. Not too bad if you ask me (considering the current price of oil).

[Edited on 7-25-2008 by MagicJigPipe]




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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ScienceSquirrel
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[*] posted on 25-7-2008 at 18:54


35% Hydrogen peroxide is currently about £20 for 500ml around here.

Not cheap but it is food grade so quite pure.

I use a few ml at a time so a bottle lasts for ages.
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chief
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[*] posted on 21-9-2008 at 05:33


Who wants to ban Iodides ?? Potassium iodide is _very_ useful in case of nuclear disaster: One eats a nice dosage of it, so the body is saturated and the radioactive isotope is then not absorbed ...
KI was eg. handed out at the reactor-thing in Harrisburg, to protect the people ...
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not_important
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[*] posted on 21-9-2008 at 20:06


Quote:
Originally posted by chief
Who wants to ban Iodides ??...


Ask an Australian amateur chemist...
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Panache
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[*] posted on 23-9-2008 at 01:00


Quote:
Originally posted by not_important
Quote:
Originally posted by chief
Who wants to ban Iodides ??...


Ask an Australian amateur chemist...


But not me because i'll mistake your question and yell at you. Besides in australia we have King Island with its abundant kelp fields that wash across BassStraight in the rough seas and dump themselves in huge mounds along the Mornington Peninsula. I have often contemplated seeing how much iodine i could get out of a few hundred kilos of this kelp, which has been used in years gone by for Australia iodine supply. Its seems like a worthy task. i wonder if it is somehow illegal, possibly not at all.




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not_important
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[*] posted on 23-9-2008 at 07:01


Quote:
Originally posted by Panache
...in australia we have King Island with its abundant kelp fields that wash across BassStraight in the rough seas and dump themselves in huge mounds along the Mornington Peninsula. I have often contemplated seeing how much iodine i could get out of a few hundred kilos of this kelp, which has been used in years gone by for Australia iodine supply. Its seems like a worthy task. i wonder if it is somehow illegal, possibly not at all.


It may vary between differing states/territories, but len( |1|2) said that even making iodides from kelp would put you afoul of the law, after I gave on old method that didn't involve charing the kelp.

Note that there's a lot of variation in iodine content from seaweed to seaweed species, even though they may all be called kelp. Knowing that a particular local variety had been so used is quite useful. The amount of iodine generally runs from 0,2 to 1 percent by wet weight, in kelps most of the iodine is present as water soluble forms.
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chief
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[*] posted on 23-9-2008 at 13:52


I don't understand the reason: Why forbid iodine ???
==> Have they any fear of potential nuclear terrorism ? (don't know exactly, if iodine could be anyhow useful for that ...)
==> Do they want people out of protection against radioactive fallout (the thyroid gland, which accumulates iodine and stores it over long time must be immunized by eating iodine, eg. as KI-tablets, in case of nuclear disaster; else the radioactive isotope accumulates in the thyroid, and gives cancer) ???
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JohnWW
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[*] posted on 23-9-2008 at 16:43


The radioactive isotope of iodine which is a common fission product of U-235 and Pu-239, used in bombs, is I-131. The fission of the heavy nuclei is asymmetric, with one peak of product nuclei around I/Xe/Cs/Ba and the other around Rb/Sr. As well, as I-131, radioactive isotopes of astatine can also accumulate in the thyroid and be incorporated in thyroid hormones, but the longest-lived isotopes of At have half-lives of only 8 or 9 days.
As for extracting iodine from the sea, some sort of ion-exchange column system would probably be more efficient than extracting it from kelp, provided it is specific to iodide and will not also absorb bromide.
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chief
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[*] posted on 24-9-2008 at 01:01


Asians have seaweed for dinner, regularly. That's why it's available in those asian-food-shops, everywhere on the world: Dried, and also salty, such as fresh from the sea.

Maybe someone wants to try that for some isolation ? If good enough: It could be imported any amount, just as food ...

[Edited on 24-9-2008 by chief]
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not_important
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[*] posted on 24-9-2008 at 01:25


Quote:
Originally posted by JohnWW
As for extracting iodine from the sea, some sort of ion-exchange column system would probably be more efficient than extracting it from kelp, provided it is specific to iodide and will not also absorb bromide.


The various halide specific materials I've read about don't have very high specificity, I:Br rations were all under 5>1. On top of that they were rather expensive materials with limited lifespans.

Kelps, on the other hand, manufacture themselves, are more specific for iodine, and not that much worse at concentrating it from seawater.

Many of the food seaweeds don't concentrate iodine as much as species once used as a source of iodine. Food grade `weed is also much more expensive than agricultural grade seaweed, and tastes better too - waste to use it for I2 production.
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[*] posted on 24-9-2008 at 03:41


There is a lot of information around on the extraction of iodine from kelp.
However you need a lot of kelp and it is heavy stuff in the wet state.
It must be dried without rain falling on it as fresh water tends to extract the iodine, a greenhouse would be ideal. The dried kelp weighs only a tiny fraction of the weight of the wet kelp
The dried kelp must then be ashed, only small amounts of ash are produced.
Supposedly the smell of burning kelp in quantity is vile.
Finally the ash is reacted with sulphuric acid and an oxidising agent and the iodine is extracted or distilled off.
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