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Sauron
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GBL: 600 raids in Germany, Austria, Switzerland
See this on CNN website:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/09/germany.ghb.a...
I guess this must be an Interpol thing because Switzerland isn't even in the EU.
600 homes and offices raided because police became concerned at orders for GBL from a chemical company near Munich.
GBL said to be used to "make GHB".
My understanding is, you ingest a small amount of GBL and your body makes the GHB for you in vivo.
I trust no members were affected by this.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Jor
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Well, I have read on the german forum www.versuchschemie.de, that that were also some people raided who did not order GBL. The company sold a lot of other things to individuals, like
simple standard inorganic and organic chemicals, but also rare stuff like SOCl2, AcCl, Ac2O and oleum. I was about to buy from them soon, but it's not
possible now anymore.
I hope 'garage chemist' isn't raided. Even though he does pure chemistry and not anything illiegal, he does have things like PCl3, PCl5, NaCN and so
on. The ignorant government won't let him keep that I think, after they have done a raid. He won't get convicted, but I cannot imagine the police
walking away, saying 'have fun with your hobby and NaCN'. I think this is for all us home chemists. If you get raided, you may not get convicted, but
your dangerous chemicals will be taken.
For the thread on the German forum:
http://www.versuchschemie.de/topic,11372,-Hausdurchsuchung+d...
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Sauron
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Was the Munich company a sting, do you reckon?
Garage chemist has always told me that 'T' classed chemicals are difficult or impossible to buy in Germany and must be bought through a pharmacy, yet
this company was apparently selling things I'd guess were so classified, through the post. That suggests a law enforcement sting, at least IMO.
Similar to the notorious red phosphorus sellers in Scotland.
The press are couching this in terms of an ati-"date rape drug" campaign, but clearly from what you say this was a broader operation aimed at a
variety of (real or imagined) "naughty" activities.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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chemoleo
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Check also this, for the Germans 
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,564756,00.html
According to versuchschemie, the agents seemed primarily worried about precursors for explosives, and confiscated H2O2, H2SO4, pot hexacyanoferrate
(?), acetone, formaldehyde, KNO3, toluene, CuSO4 (??)....
Apparently they thought some KHSO4 in an evaporating dish was TATP, and when he was asked to demonstrate that it isn't (by dissolving in H2O and using
a pH strip) the police guys went behind cover 
But apparently the agents were friendly, but all came at 6:30 in the morning with an explosive sniffing dog... charming!
I wonder whether they targeted only under 18's, as I can't see that any of the above are illegal in any way!
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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Sauron
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The K hexacyanoferrate = ferrocyanide, which can be used to make HCN - there's no other reason to grab it. So apparently explosives were not their
sole concern.
I wonder if they caught any jihadis in their net?
As for the date rape thing I was under the impression that neither GBL, nor GHB were a legal issue in the EU, or am I wrong?
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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woelen
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With some fantasy, CuSO4 can be regarded as an explosives precursor, as any transition metal salt. With nitrates, ammonia and copper sulfate you can
make TACN. But of course, this is totally STUPID. In this way, EVERY metal salt, which can coordinate ammonia (and almost all of them can) could be
considered an explosives precursor.
I read the stories and they are really disturbing. Sadly, the EU (at least Germany, but probably other countries as well) are going the same way as
the USA.
As I understood it from the forums, the Munich company is not a sting operation, but some guy, who had a badly run company, not taking into account
the rules and regulation of handling and selling chemicals.
What is more worrying though, is that the other company (in the Northern part of Germany) also is raided, and this company did adhere to all rules and
was asking an Endverbleiberklärung for many of the chemicals he sold (all T, T+, and O chemicals and also quite a few highly corrosive ones). Besides
that, he did not ship T and T+ chemicals to private persons in Germany, according to regulations, those had to be picked up at his store.
I read that the guy from the Munich company is arrested, but the other company might get away with this, although this affair of course will lead to
loss of many of his customers. If ordering a chem from a certain place gives a high risk of being raided in the near future, then this is not a good
thing at all. I think this all is a sad matter and another big setting back for the sake of home chemistry.
This affair also seems to be a highly coordinated operation. All raids were at the same time, at 6:30 in the morning, so that no one could warn others
through forums and so on. There also were raids in Switzerland and Austria, and according to some austrian news, there also were two
'Ermittlungsverfahren's in other countries in Europe, but it is not precisely clear to me what this word means (I am not german). It sounds to me like
an in-depth investigation, possibly accompanied with a house raid, but a native German-speaking person can explain this much better than I can.
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Sauron
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Has anyone PMd garage chemist to see if he is all right?
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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not_important
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It appears that they may have gone after more than those with GBL, or even just chemists
http://ohmproject.blogspot.com/
| Quote: | The Ohm Project (ohmproject.org) was knocked off the Net yesterday. The site has been hosted on a German server run by E-Tunnels, a VPN provider and
sponsor of The Ohm Project.
Both The Ohm Project and E-Tunnels went dark on Wednesday about midday Central European time. No notice was provided to either party as to the cause.
When an inquiry was made to the service provider, he said that "the German police" had made three complaints beginning about a month ago about
unspecified "abuse" originating from one of the IP addresses assigned to E-Tunnels.
The service provider, welcome2inter.net, claimed that he had been prohibited by the authorities from relaying the complaints to E-Tunnels even
though they were the only party able to respond to the situation or correct it.
...
The Ohm Project is a site providing information about threats to Internet privacy and freedom along with advice and tips about how to fight back
against these encroachments. |
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JohnWW
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Save the political rants for another forum.
[Edited on 7-10-2008 by Polverone]
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12AX7
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JohnWW
Bu$h |
Who? I don't even understand how you're supposed to pronounce dollarsigns in a name. Budollarsignh? That doesn't make any sense.
Tim
P.S. John, take your meds. Again.
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Magpie
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The sheer scope and international coordination of these raids is astounding. And I agree with woelen that this does not bode well for home chemists,
anywhere.
I am wondering about several things: Is GBL illegal to sell, buy, or posses in the affected countries? Were only those customers buying GBL raided,
or was this a general sweep of all (or many) customers?
I have looked at the inventories of the internet suppliers with whom I occaisionally do business. None of them have GBL. But if the police are going
to get excited by acetone and copper sulfate then there will be no end to it.
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Sauron
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My best guess is that there was specific intelligence about a jihadist plot involving explosives etc and that the broad brush raid and "GBL under the
bed" story put out to the press, is a smoke screen to conceal the true nature of the operation.
AFAIK GBL is not illegal to purchase or possess in Germany, Austria, or (non-EU, remember!) Switzerland and as various members have pointed out
repeatedly, GBL is a ubiquitous cleaning solvent and has many legitimate industrial uses. The same is true of BDO.
I do not know the status of GHB in EU and will have to defer to a European member on that.
But tomorrow I am meeting socially with a Swiss ambassador and will put my theory to him. I do not accept the proposition that the police of these
three countries got up in the middle of the night to roust 600 amateur chemists out of bed at the crack of dawn. There's more to this than we are
being told. And whatever it was it had nothing to do with protecting the virtue of college girls from the Euro equivalent of frat boys.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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pantone159
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by MagpieWere only those customers buying GBL raided, or was this a general sweep of all (or many) customers?
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From what I understood of the posts on versuchschemie.de (and Mein Deutch ist sehr schlecht, so I had to rely on the google translator), they were
interested in very many more things than GBL, people who hadn't bought that at all were raided.
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Sauron
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Yes, that puts the lie to the cover story about date-rape drug.
So, with that in mind, are we supposed to believe that 1500-2000 police in 3 major European countries in and out of EU organized simultaneous dawn
raids at 600 locations just to fuck with hobbyists?
I say no. Something else was going on that had them motivated and the rest is just blue smoke and mirrors.
Time will tell.
Meanwhile garage chemist is still out of contact. Has ANYONE heard from him?
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Magpie
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I, too, am concerned about garage chemist. He did say that he would be not experimenting for about a month. So let's hope that he is just breaking
in some new lederhosen in the Alps or is otherwise incommunicado for some equally innocuous reason!
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woelen
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This is really shocking!
http://de.indymedia.org/2008/07/221841.shtml
If this is true, then they are cheating us all. This makes online buying of chemicals a very dangerous thing. I more and more am inclined to think
that Sauron is right and that there is happening more behind the scene than we know.
I put a quote from www.versuchschemie.de over here:
| Quote: | posted by Chemieknolle
Ich habe soeben mit Lippert telefoniert. Er sitzt in U-Haft und soll bis zu 15 Jahren im Gefängnis verbringen.
Scho alleine die Tatsache dass er eine Gifthandelserlaubnis hat (die nicht einfach so ausgestellt wird) und die Pozilei schon öfters vorbeigeschaut
hat, hätte zum vorscheinb ringen müssen, dass er nichts zu mit drogen oder sprengstoff zu tun hat.
Große chemiehandelsunternehmen (so z.B: wahrsch. Merck) wollen ihn nicht mehr mit chems beliefern. Seine Frau meint, dass sie mit dem Rücken zur
Wand stehen und dass kann ich mir ganz genau vorstellen:
zum einen die enorme Rufschädigung...
zum anderen die Lieferstopps
nicht zu vergessen: die finanzielle Schädigung...
Ich schätze mal, dass es das war...sowohl für den laden als auch für die praktizierende Chemie außerhalb des arbeitsplatzes.
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Summarizing, the owner of the Lippert Lehrmittel shop is under arrest and there is a good chance that he
will be imprisoned for 15 years. The shop most likely will stop: suppliers don't want to deal with it anymore, its reputation among customers is
highly damaged and there is substantial financial damage.
This is a very sad thing. I simply cannot understand that this guy will be imprisoned for such a long time for selling the things from his shop (all
chemicals are legal in Germany, and many other EU countries). Either there is done some great unjustice, or Mr. Bogatzki has done much more than
selling chems from his shop in small quantities.
[Edited on 11-7-08 by woelen]
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pantone159
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I am confused what 'Lipper Teaching Materials' is.
Is Lipper the name of a person, or the company selling chems, or something else?
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woelen
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Lippert Lehrmittel is the name of the company, but also the family name. Their website is www.chemikalien-shop.de. The company is run by Janina Lippert, but customers relations is done by Rainer Bogatzki, who did this in a perfect way
with good service.
This company was a great source for chemicals in small quantities. Here you could buy e.g. 100 ml of SOCl2 for just a few euros, also private persons.
I also purchased some chemicals from this company in small quantities. But according to messages on Internet (whether it is true or not, it is unclear
to me), the company had a second 'shadow company' which was selling GBL on a multitonne-scale, some customers needed to be supplied by tank-trucks or
with drums of hundreds of liters. I hardly can believe this story, given the perfect service, quality and adherence to rules and regulations of the
company. This really was a good company, also respecting all rules of the EU, and not some shady thing like the chemical closet.
[Edited on 11-7-08 by woelen]
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Sauron
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My Swiss friend, an ambassador, concurrs with my assesment.
Three governments did not spend untold hundreds of thousands of Euros on thousands of man hours of detective work just to harass some hobbyists.
There's something else behind all this, and inconveniencing hobbyists is collateral damage.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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vulture
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| Quote: |
There's something else behind all this, and inconveniencing hobbyists is collateral damage. |
Law enforcement probably sees this as a convenient side effect...
On the other hand, there was a related bust some time ago, involving three whackos buying large quantities of peroxide. The prosecution case on that
one was very vague to say the least. Politicians don't mind spending millions of euros for scare tactics to keep the sheeple in check.
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Sauron
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Well, if that is the case, then it's time for you all in Europe to find a free country to live in. And obviously I do not mean the USA.
I am not being facetious and neither am I intending to disparage the EU. BUT if the police can confiscate property that was purchased lawfully, and
possessed lawfully, without any evidence of unlawful use, then there is no due process, no property rights, no protection from unreasonable search and
seizure, and fellows, that is not a free country.
[Edited on 12-7-2008 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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JohnWW
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I wonder if the people arrested would be safer in the Netherlands, where at least cannabis is semi-legal. Other than that, they would have to look to
the likes of Armenia, Georgia, Serbia, Montenegro, Belarus, Ukraine, or, dare I say it, Russia.
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chloric1
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Westerners (Canadians & Americans) might want to explore tropical America. Although some governements are semicooperative in drug wars, it is
less difficult to set up shop and be an official business. For example Colombia, the country my wife is from, does not have income tax! I also
believe licensing is a simpler process. Although a straight lab supple house might raise brows in certain areas, there are many crafts to exploit for
there chemical curiosities. Maybe a soap,textile, printing supply house with some localized specialty to capture the market. I am going to spend 8
weeks in Colombia from December to Febuary and I hope I have enough time to figure out what cetain markets are and who are the best raw material
suppliers.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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woelen
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JohnWW
I wonder if the people arrested would be safer in the Netherlands, where at least cannabis is semi-legal. Other than that, they would have to look to
the likes of Armenia, Georgia, Serbia, Montenegro, Belarus, Ukraine, or, dare I say it, Russia. |
In the
Netherlands the situation is not very different from the situation in Germany. Certain (soft)drugs are tolerated when purchased and possessed in small
quantities, but explosives and large quantities of stuff like GBL certainly are not allowed. A similar shop in the Netherlands (which does not exist
as far as I know) definitely would be monitored by some official agency and if only a tiny misstep is detected then this company will be raided. I
persnally think that the ENTIRE western world is suffering from this mass-hysteria. Irrational fear is ruling the western world, leading to draconian
measures as what we have seen last week in Germany.
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woelen
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This whole affair seems to be part of a much bigger thing. Chemicals should be banned from society, and only big registered companies and certain
universities should be allowed to purchase chemicals.
| Quote: | Geplant sind über die geforderten Inverkehrbringensverbote für Oxidationsmittel an Privat
sogar Abgabeverbote für alle wichtigen Säuren (Salzsäure, Schwefelsäure,
Salpetersäure) an Privat, Abgabeverbote von Stoffen wie (Aceton, Citronensäure
etc.) an Minderjährige sowie eine Art Erlaubnis für Erwerb von diversen
Chemikalien in der Industrie. Die Lagerung der Chemikalien soll ebenfalls verschärft
geregelt werden, um Diebstähle zu verhindern (zu erwarten ist Lagerung hinter dicken
Tresortüren).
Auf die Aufzeichnungsdaten von Verkaufsvorgängen soll die Polizei Zugriff bekommen.
Alle Informationen über die Herstellung explosiver Stoffe sollen verbannt werden,
deren Verbreitung soll als Straftat geahndet werden.
Der Handel mit Dünger soll neu überwacht werden und der Verkauf von Dünger
an Privat z.T. verboten werden.
Handel mit Klasse I/II Feuerwerkskörpern soll erlaubnispflichtig werden und eine
Fülle weiterer Verschärfungen u.a. im Sprengstoffrecht usw. sind zu erwarten... |
In the EU (and apparently in the G8 as well) they are discussing absolute control of spreading of chemicals. No chemical except the most innocuous is
allowed in the hands of private persons if this becomes true. For people, who can't read German:
- no oxidizers for private persons, not at all
- no mineral acids for private persons, not at all
- many other chemicals only for grown-up people, each purchase being logged for the police (e.g. acetone, citric acid)
- also an absolute stop on information about energetic materials. Spreading of such information is committing a crime
- many fertilizers not available for private persons anymore. The remaining fertilizers will be strictly monitored, each purchase being logged for the
police.
- storage of chemicals in highly secured areas in order to avoid the chance of theft.
- strict monitoring of sale of fireworks
For more info see: http://www.versuchschemie.de/ltopic,11415,0,asc,0.html
If this indeed becomes true, then I'll quit home chemistry...
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