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Jor
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Well if this really becomes reality, I'm gooing to write a letter to the government asking for permission to continue chemistry. This should be signed
by all home chemists in a country (e.g. in my case woelen, me, Taaie Neuskoek, and many others on dutch forums).
This is really sad, I don't know what to do if this becomes reality. I guess I'll have to give all my chems to the government.
However, I'm NOT concerned about NH3, HCl, NaOH, acetone, ethyl alcohol, DCM, etc. They will remain very handy chemicals is all day life, and I don't
think they will be banned. Also chemicals like CuSO4 (copper plating) and photo chemicals won't be forbidden I think. To be honest, I don't think the
law will make it through. However, I do believe oxidisers and strong poisons will be banned soon.
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
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If one looks at the trend of the last hundred years, as in the trend from less to more regulation, this was expected.
I hate to say it, but this will pass eventually, perhaps not the first time, and more neo-fascist actions against hobbyists will be taken.
Its not a pretty picture, and I am quite worried for GC now.
I imagine such legislation will eventually come to Canada and the rest of north Americal. I will be sad to see the day where the building blocks of
civillization are banned from those not gov sanctioned
[Edited on 16-7-2008 by The_Davster]
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-jeffB
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| Quote: | Originally posted by woelen
- no oxidizers for private persons, not at all
- no mineral acids for private persons, not at all
- many other chemicals only for grown-up people, each purchase being logged for the police (e.g. acetone, citric acid)
- also an absolute stop on information about energetic materials. Spreading of such information is committing a crime
- many fertilizers not available for private persons anymore. The remaining fertilizers will be strictly monitored, each purchase being logged for the
police.
- storage of chemicals in highly secured areas in order to avoid the chance of theft.
- strict monitoring of sale of fireworks
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Do you suppose they'll eventually realize that they also must ban salt water and electricity (chlorine! chlorates! hydrogen!), air and electricity
(nitrates!), wood (alcohol! solvents! charcoal!), aluminum (fuel!), iron (reducing agents!)...
Of course, if they make it illegal to use electricity, that'll help stem the bloody tide of "information" that they so fear. Then they can start
clamping down on fire.
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Rosco Bodine
Banned
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There seems to be only two options, be a resigned peacenik and take it ... or alternately, implement some variation on that line from the Kurt Russell
movie "Soldier" , taking the fight straight to
those agency assholes, by ones and twos (or more),
for the good of the community simply kill them all
It's a long and well known fact that dead adversaries
have a greatly reduced capability for being a problem.
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woelen
Super Administrator
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jor
[...]Also chemicals like CuSO4 (copper plating) and photo chemicals won't be forbidden I think. |
CuSO4
already is in some sense (in Germany, not EU-wide). Approximately 1 year ago it was decided that copper sulfate is not allowed anymore in high school
chemistry labs. Some years before they also banned dichromates. The reason for banning copper sulfate is not terrorism, but toxicity.
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Sauron
International Hazard
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Roscoe, we all love you, but do you really think that your comment is a constructive one?
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Rosco Bodine
Banned
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When I add my two cents worth ,
people get what they pay for....
that way anything more is a bonus.
But really, wouldn't the world be better off
if we could bioengineer some dread disease which
would only infect clueless bureaucrats and
render them extinct as a subspecies?
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chromium
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I do not belive that what Woelen described here can ever be a law as this would need reorganization of whole society. Not any explosives in
scientific, technical or patent literature. No DIY repairing. Even no cooking without bureaucracy - and how to deal with making chemicals (like citric
acid or lactic acid) from natural sources, and how to draw line between chemical and nonchemical as anything we ever eat or hold in our hands is made
of substances which in slightly another context are called "chemicals".
Such would-be laws are based on the false idea that substances can be clearly divided into dangerous and nondangerous ones. Unfortunatelly this can
not be done. Dangers depend entirely on specifics of usage. Even air or clean water can kill and destroy property. Even poisons or explosive
substances do bad only in specific cases which are clearly connected with criminal intent or lack of responsibility.
While there are certainly some people foolish enough to think that such laws would make happy future, they are too rare (and probably too
unintelligent) to have enough influence on society.
That said, i too am worried about Garage Chemist. While such would-be laws will never make it, some repressive means are certainly used - for example
show-like overpowered raids to private homes with virtually no evidence of crime. So there may be some bad news waiting.
I am a bit disappointed (or maybe disillusioned) about this forum as no slightest political actions by members is ever taken. Of course it may be that
even this would not give any results but at the moment every government official or politician can say wholeheartedly that no home scientist has ever
contacted him or otherwise informed him of any abuse.
If there would be home chemistry society wich will do nothing more than just send official letters to government institutions then even this might
make some changes. At the moment we just do not exist - expect, of course, for ourselves.
I personally can not do much as my homeland is so damn small that changing anything there is completely useless to 99.99% of you and my english is far
too slow to suit for giving interview or even make proper phone call. At the time i do no experimenting at all as i have two small children and am in
need for better job. :-(
When all think alike, then no one is thinking. - Walter Lippmann
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woelen
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Chromium, I wish you were right. Most of this will be implemented, probably even before the end of this year. Indeed, purchase of HCl in a hardware
store will not be possible anymore, let alone purchase of H2SO4 or HNO3.
This is the original official text in English translation:
http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf/en/08/st08/st08109.e...
Especially sections 2.1.1, 2.1.2 and 2.2.1, 2.2.2 should be read carefully. Any chemical, for which there are alternatives or alternatives can be
developed will be banned. So, no pure HCl of decent concentration but some 'concrete cleaner' which may contain a few percents of HCl, besides lots of
other stuff, such that it ONLY can be used for cleaning concrete and not for anything else (except maybe by extensive workup procedures to isolate the
HCl in it).
An example substitute for hydrochloric acid is this concrete cleaner, with a nice mild smell: http://www.onlinebouwmarkt.nl/winkel/view_product.php?produc...
I have the impression that this already is going on. Since a few weeks, no 97% H2SO4 drain cleaner can be purchased anymore at Hornbach (a big German
hardware store, which also has outlets in the Netherlands), and they also stopped supplying hydrochloric acid. Instead, they sell the product,
mentioned above. I also failed to find hydrogen peroxide in their aquarium section (which is large). They still do sell acetone though.
[Edited on 16-7-08 by woelen]
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Magpie
lab constructor
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| Quote: |
Of course it may be that even this would not give any results but at the moment every government official or politician can say wholeheartedly that no
home scientist has ever contacted him or otherwise informed him of any abuse.
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Perhaps the Germans know better than to complain. What did Dr Goebbels do to those in Germany who complained about the abuses of the Nazi party -
even years prior to WWII?
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Jor
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No chemistry anymore without sulfuric acid.
I will have to stock up badly on this one, and hope I have an opportunity in the future for buying it.
I can't believe it. How can I be so unlucky that I wasn't born 30 years ago!?
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chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
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How about this bit:
| Quote: | 2.81
Limit the illicit spread of bomb-making information over the Internet
while fully respecting freedom of the press, information and expression.
Process: ongoing
2.82
Consider the approximation of criminal sanctions for distributing bombmaking
experience over the Internet in line with the amendments to the
Council Framework Decision on combating terrorism (outlined in the
Council Framework Decision amending Framework Decision
2002/475/JHA on combating terrorism).
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I wonder how the freedom of information can be adhered to, given the words 'limit [...]the spread [...] of information' - I am sickened!
But I knew this was coming. I've been watching for 20 years, and it is harder and harder to get household chemicals that were common in the past.
The final days of HCl and NaOH are coming!
And terrorism (as well as drugs) delivered the perfect excuse!
The document woelen pointed to says that from the start, terrorism is the reason for the initiative.
This is how all these wars, and decades of history, affect us personally, each one of us, in the end!
[Edited on 16-7-2008 by chemoleo]
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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Bromide
Harmless
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Unreal
| Quote: | Originally posted by woelen
Chromium, I wish you were right. Most of this will be implemented, probably even before the end of this year. Indeed, purchase of HCl in a hardware
store will not be possible anymore, let alone purchase of H2SO4 or HNO3.
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Un-frukking-believable. You have to give the Brussellscrats credit, though, for the sheer unvarnished authoritarianism of it--the European
Union has now officially banned chemistry. There just does not appear to be any other credible way to interpret what is being
promulgated in those documents.
I might be tempted to facetiously offer our European colleagues congratulations for taking the initiative and leapfrogging even the state of
Texas--with its ridiculous glassware regulations--in a single legislative stroke, but for the strong hunch I've got that we New World sheeple will
almost certainly face similar penal acts not so long in the future. It would be folly to think that our own regime of marching morons won't regard
this EU legislation as anything other than a gentlemanly challenge to enact bans of an even more bletcherous nature here in the USA.
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chemoleo
How about this bit:
| Quote: | 2.81
Limit the illicit spread of bomb-making information over the Internet
while fully respecting freedom of the press, information and expression.
Process: ongoing
2.82
Consider the approximation of criminal sanctions for distributing bombmaking
experience over the Internet in line with the amendments to the
Council Framework Decision on combating terrorism (outlined in the
Council Framework Decision amending Framework Decision
2002/475/JHA on combating terrorism).
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Ok, wtf...limit freedom of speech while respecting it.
This right there is another harbinger of 1984. This is doublespeak, unequivocally.
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len1
National Hazard
Posts: 595
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Mood: NZ 1 (goal) - Italy 1 (dive)
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This is all quite ridiculous and futile.
Chemists as opposed to storemen dont buy chemicals they make them, and theres no limit to what you can do.
If H2SO4 goes who cares, when you can make the 100% stuff, and even oleum from bisulphate. Then onto HCl, HNO3 and all other mineral acids. Ban
gone.
We have a cell for making Na in desirable quantities. If NaOH is banned, the cell for making NaOH from salt is even simpler.
In short if its chemistry youre into bans of this sort - which might be new to Europe, but has been here for quite a while - just gives more
incentive to do interesting chem and doesnt limit at all the chem you can do ive found, if you all just cooperate ..
This in no way excuses the unprincipled nature of the legislation that makes making of these elementary chems necessary. In fact I think its the
introduction of a Police State - thats its meaning. It could be argued that such a state is not worth protecting from terrorists ..
[Edited on 17-7-2008 by len1]
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Jor
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I agree it should be fun to make the chemicals, but comon, something as basic as HCl, H2SO4 and NaOH should be really available...
Especially H2SO4, it's hard to make safely, unless you have a proper hood, and you need it so many times!
IMO, H2SO4 is maybe the post important chem in home home chemistry.
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Sauron
International Hazard
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Where's garage chemist?
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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woelen
Super Administrator
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Location: Netherlands
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Hmmm... I also checked the German forum (www.versuchschemie.de) and garage chemist also is not present at that forum. No post from him at all. I really hope this silence is just due to a
holiday.
I also will go on holiday next week and then I might be silent as well for some time.
@Len1: I do not agree with you. Many many people who want to start home chemistry will NOT be able to make H2SO4, HCl and NaOH themselves. I'm quite
sure that for you this also was not a starting project. I really like the things you have achieved and this is a great job, but do not expect such
things from newbies. I really believe that such extreme regulation will stifle any starting interest of the newbies. If they find that even the most
basic chems cannot be obtained without extreme effort and expense on equipment, then they will quit. Only the most ambitious ones remain. The others
will just go on gaming, watching TV all day and night and drinking beers. That is exactly what many politicians seem to want. A dumbed-down person,
who spends all his/her free time watching stupid mind-killing TV-programs or is playing games all day is not dangerous for the government. Active
people, showing initiatives, people who are standing for something and are willing to put effort in things and bring offers for that, those are the
people, which the government is scared of.
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len1
National Hazard
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I was communicating with the people who most often write on this forum who certainly are not newbees.
In any case one has to define this term. If by Newbee is meant someone who has completed high school with chemistry, then he's plenty prepared to make
an NaOH cell for instance. Some high school chem exp are more advanced than that. If you mean someone with not even a high school education, then he
should attend adult classes, because you cant learn from this forum (he could read a book, but in most cases such people would benefit more from
classes). Then again hes ready to do experiments. If the person doesnt want to do even that - and Ive had some communications from such, 'dont want
to learn, want to play with them fun chemicals give me your Na cell' then I maintain hes not a newbee but a kewl, and its better that he dont touch
anything. All my posts here are addressed only to the former two types of people.
(By the way I find your site very elucidating - the photos also are excellent. Ive made a hardcopy of the exps, and were going to go thru most of
them with my kids. The content is better than any beginning chem textbooks I could find. If you have time you can make a very useful book out of
this. And not the type weve already seen where its just a rehash of whats already out there, but something totally new. Most of the photos are book
quality already - I wish I was as good with the camera)
GC wrote me and explained he'll be away for a while. I wont write more since he didnt give me instructions that I could mention it on the forum, and
I hate if someone wrote something personal about me w/o my permission.
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chloric1
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I am with len1 on this as well, although the proceedures for making NaOH, Cl2, oleum might seem daunting at first to those newbies, these will
provide a much more rewarding and humbling experience than some watered down textbook ever will.
At this rate, the German government will be burning books in the streets again very soon. And when Osama and his cohorts don't turn up, what racial
group will be the next scapegoat for the global gestapo?
Fellow molecular manipulator
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chromium
Hazard to Others
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@len1: You have done greatest job on making chemicals available for those who can not buy them but i do agree with woelen about newbies. There are lot
of them who are not even in high school age but would like to see how piece of metal dissolves in HCl or to fill party ballon with hydrogen from NaOH
+ Al. Even now such schoolboys are nearly out of law in most countries. By the way in former sowiet union (where i lived in my childhood)
concentrated HCl and even HNO3 where available (and not watched) and i bought them without help of my parents when i was 13 years old.
There is also another possible problem. If our european police state develops even further then they may ban possession of devices for making
chemicals. Electrolytic cell or distillation aparattus are not that easy to hide from neighbours or anyone who might be eager to report suspicious
activity.
That said, best we can do (if we do not want to try political actions) is what len1 and garage chemist have done in Prepublications forum - to find
and document easy ways of making basic chemicals from available ones.
When all think alike, then no one is thinking. - Walter Lippmann
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Sauron
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Generate your own electricity
Blow your own glassware, starting from sand
etc
These are the logical extension of len1's positionn and the prospect of draconian restrictions on amateur science.
But you see, quickly the simplest preparations become a lot of preliminary grunt work.
Personally I prefer not to relive the 18th century.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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len1
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I could of course retort that the logical extension of your position is that one buys all the stuff and does nothing ..
I well remember the kids experimenting with science at primary school with HCl available in NZ only with difficulty - they poured it on their hands -
not much benefit to anyone. At a later age if you wanted to experiment HCl, HNO3 were readily available in high school. If you wanted to muck about
thats a different matter - we shouldnt mix the two up.
I did do chem as a hobby ages 11 to 16. Chemicals were almost impossible to get in NZ at that time. That was not my biggest problem, and it isnt the
biggest problem for most people either. Its lack of knowledge. If someone only explained to me as a kid how to go about things I could make most
things Ive done now. For other people the problem is a work ethic.
I didnt know chems were 'not watched' in Russia. Maybe thats because all effort was spent on people watching  . Actually many things were better in the former Soviet Union. For instance that very same work ethic. Plus people
would do things essentially for free - like the work Im sharing here. People in the west are brought up to think that everything has a price. Im not
suggesting it was better there - life there was freightening, it was a real police state - maybe thats what we're heading to
[Edited on 18-7-2008 by len1]
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YT2095
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although I agree with Len that there is much Fun and learning to be had from making your own reagents and extracting elements from things found in
nature, there is also a case that somethings will not be possible or worthwhile.
for instance, H2O2 is being pulled, and you want some for an extraction or a glowstick, are you going to seek out barite minerals to make Barium metal
and then add the oxide to water to make your H2O2?
such a thing would be insanity, surely?
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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Sauron
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The nanny states never sleep, and what vulture calls the sheeple obviously (to the minds of the nannycrats) need protecting from themselves.
Someone upthread is correct, after they take the chemicals away and block all private purchase, the apparatus will be next. Glassware is already
tightly controlled in some US states such as California and Texas (in varying degrees). In Texas possession of unregistered glassware and its transfer
without approval from the state are serious crimes. Owners of glassware must register with the state and all purchases reported in advance and
approval requested. In California as I recall, glassware purchases are restricted to $100 a day. Most of the hobbyist-friendly glassware sellers in
California have gone out of business.
So it is not at all unreasonable to extrapolate such stupidity spreading, at least to the EU and sadly to Oceanina as well.
In Texas if I understand correctly even blowing your own glass is subject to same regime.
It is a well known tactic of the drug enforcement cops when looking at a suspected clandestine lab site, to monitor electrical and water use via the
public utilities. If this is deemed inordinately high it's a bit in favor of the place being a lab. So my remark about generating your own electricity
was not out of bounds at all.
When the government is afraid of its people it is high time for the people to be afraid of that government.
Those who are willing to trade a little liberty for some security will soon have neither.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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