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Axt
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Nitromethane -> Fulminates
With reference to here
"A laboratory method is to mix solutions of sodium nitromethane, CH2: NO(ONa), and mercuric chloride, a yellow basic salt being formed at the
same time."
I havnt been able to find any other references to this process other then that sentence.
Sooo..
CH<sub>3</sub>NO<sub>2</sub> + NaOH --> NaCH<sub>2</sub>NO<sub>2</sub>
Hg + H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> + HCl --> HgCl<sub>2</sub>
Thats easy enough, but under what conditions will these two react to form the fulminate, and could this process be used as a shortcut to copper
fulminate by simply substituting Hg with Cu?
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Marvin
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Both of those are flawwed.
The sodium nitronate might need to be anhydrous, and if the anhydrous salt gets wet, it tends to detonate by itself. Oh, I remeber something about
using a solution of sodium ethoxide in alcohol to form the salt, and when this gets wet, the heat/water turns it yellow and it detonates. Sodium
fulminate being distinctly unstable chemically, to heat and to shock. The aci-nitro salts of higher nitroalkanes dont do this, and so are rather
safer to play with.
Ive posted this info in one of the forums allready, but I dont rember which one.
From memory, you do a double decomposition to form mercury nitronate, which precipitates, and then digest this with dilute HCl to convert it into
mercury fulminate.
On balence, you are much better sticking to the nitric acid/ethanol method. Not that I like mercury fulminate particulaly becuase of the toxicity of
the mercury metal and much more so its salts.
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Axt
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"Both of those are flawwed."
In which way? Ive done them both, the NM/SH will give a brown precipitate that burns very simularly to blackpowder, Though ive never been able to
ignite it with water (doesnt mean it wont!) it does seem to decompose (hydrate?) into a darker brown powder that will just smoulder and spit. Is your
statement due to the formation of water during the reaction? as far as I can tell, water has only effected the amount that has dissolved into it,
therefore can be filtered out. If it is hydrous, are there any tests to confirm this? colour? it will burst into flame on contact with H2SO4.
There is a movie of its ignition here if interested. (Ive changed the movie to show ignition of the dry salt, rather then damp as before)
Is the reaction to form mercuric chloride wrong? I know it works for cupric chloride, it was assumed Hg would act simularly. Since this is hydrated,
heating would remove the H2O.
My main interest was to use it as a possible copper fulminate synth. therefore bypassing mercury and its toxicity problems.
"From memory, you do a double decomposition to form mercury nitronate, which precipitates, and then digest this with dilute HCl to convert it into
mercury fulminate. "
Double decomposition in solution with what?
[Edited on 9-12-2005 by Axt]
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madscientist
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See my post at the top of this page: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=706&am...
HgCl<sub>2</sub> from Hg, H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub>, and HCl does work.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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Marvin
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I'm prepaired to be wrong about HgCl2, though I was under the impression that would stop at calomel. I'm unhappy with the long term
toxicity problems with using mercury salts, so I wont be trying this myself.
Sodium (methylene)nitronate is undoubtedly what forms _initially_ when sodium hydroxide and nitromethane are mixed, but its very doubtful this is what
is precipitated or that this can be recovered in any amount from the aq solution afterwards. More likley a salt of nitroacetaldoxime, or nitroacetic
acid, or possibly some sort of polymer caused by self condensation of some of these products.
The mercury salt will go to fulminate, but the silver salt doesnt, and Ive no info as to what the copper salt would produce. Fulminate chemistry is
full of unexpected double salt formations, complex salt formations, polymer formations and available information is somewhat lacking.
ppting mercury methylenenitronate from a solution of sodium methylene nitronate and a mercury (II) salt, followed by digesting with HCl is how
sidgewick describes one production of mercury fulminate. Available information suggests this is unavoidably done anhydrously.
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Axt
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Thanks for the replys, im now prepared to give this thought a rest.
The NM/SH reaction evolves no gasses if that helps narrowing down the products, other then what ive already said ive no other properties to add.
Heres something to try, pour a pile of NaOH and pour some NM until its damp and get back ..... FWOOMP!
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Axt
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Since PATR 2700 gives reference to an explosive K salt produced in aq. solution, so I gave it a shot with Na.
Nitromethane was reacted with sodium hydroxide to produce what I gather was a mix of sodium nitronate / sodium nitroacetate. This was then disolved in
water converting it all to sodium nitroacetate(?).
To the SN solution was added an unmeasured amount of cupric chloride (via Cu + H2O2 + HCl) a reaction took place and a whitish precipitate seemed to
form around the chloride "rocks" but once filtered nothing remained in the paper.
The solution was allowed to evaporate, this resulted in a dark green sludge which was spread out and allowed to dry.
The dark powder left after drying deflagrates fast when exposed to a flame, and since the sodium nitroacetate(?) itself doesnt burn there must be some
explosive copper salts in there somewhere, any ideas on how to isolate it?.
Not only does it show a bit of promise as an explosive it has a very amusing product ..... PURPLE SMOKE! who wanted copper fulminate anyway  . I cant see any reason why it would be purple, perhaps some weird reflection off a
copper cloud, but definately purple.
[Edited on 9-1-2004 by Axt]
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Marvin
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Good to see you posting again Axt, I hope we will see a return to form on this forum.
I didnt check Fedoroff, becuase I can usually never find anything in the few volumes we have, good searching.
What little info I have on nitroacetic acid suggests that in the free state its relativly stable to decarboxylation provided its not heated. It makes
me wonder if you added dilute HCl to the sodium salt, if youd get a ppt of the free acid. If you dont get a ppt an extraction is possible with ether,
toluene, benzene, hot chloroform. Insoluable in pet ether but very soluable in ethanol. Making the copper salt from the hydroxide might then be
possible.
The purple smoke is very curious!
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Axt
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Heres the two references to the salts you have already suggested as possibilities Marvin, thats how I found them. I think it also confirms your
thoughts on extracting the nitroacetic acid via HCl, though it seems dry HCl is needed.
______________________________
<b>Mononitroacataldoxime or Methazonic Acid</b>
(O<sub>2</sub>N) CH<sub>2</sub>. CH(:NOH), mw 104.07, N 26.92%, crysts, mp 79-80°; sol in w, alc, eth, acet and warm benz or
chlf. Can be prepared by treating nitromethane in aq. NaOH or by other methods. Its ammonium salt,
C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>3</sub>N<sub>2</sub>O<sub>3</sub>.NH<sub>4</sub> obtained by the action
of ammonia on nitromethane, dec on heating with evoln of poisonous hydrogen cyanide. Its K salt
C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>3</sub>N<sub>2</sub>O<sub>3</sub>K, yel ppt expl on heating with evoln of lt blue
flame (Ref 2) and its Ag salt, C<sub>2</sub>H<sub>3</sub>N<sub>2</sub>O<sub>3</sub>Ag, pale yel. ppt,
expl ca 100°.
Nitroacetaldoxime, Anhydride, C<sub>4</sub>H<sub>4</sub>N<sub>4</sub>O<sub>4</sub>, mw 172.10, N
32.56%. Two isomers, a-, mp 168-172° (dec)& B-, mp 121-2° are described in the literature. Ag & Na salts of a-isomer were reported to be
mild expls.
<b>Nitroacetic Acid</b>
O<sub>2</sub>N.CH<sub>2</sub>.COOH, mw 105.05, N 13.33%. Ndls, expl on heating; sol in chlf, benz & toluene;insol in petr
eth; decompd by w; yields nitromethane when heated with w. Was prepd from the dipotassium salt and dry HCl in ether.
Its dipotassium salt, C<sub>2</sub>HK<sub>2</sub>NO<sub>4</sub>, ndls, sol in w and insol in ethyl & methyl
alcs, can explode on contact with w. Can best be prepared by treating nitromethane with KOH. Other methods of prepn are given in refs 1&2. It is a
powerful expl.
The aq soln of the salt yields with Pb acetate a white ppt and with Ag nitrate and mercurous chloride yel ppts. These salts dewflagrate in a flame
(the Ag salt the strongest). Approx 3lb dipotassium nitroacetate in a 10 gal stainless steel can, moistened with w and covered with about 7lb dry K
nitroacetate exploded after 30 mins at RT.
______________________________
So you can see why its confusing, the first reference gives the precipitate of NM/SH as methazonic acid, but the precipitate I recieve is not soluble
in acetone/alcohol, thats why I believed it to be the sodium salt of nitroacetic acid, but now Ive found a reference that says Na nitroacetate cannot
exist in aq solution. "The sodium nitroacetate is very unstable, and upon contact with water hydrolyzes to nitromethane" from <a
href="http://members.shaw.ca/ThreeW/Business/newsbusiness/archivesbusiness.htm">here</a>. Really annoying!
[Edited on 9-1-2004 by Axt]
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Axt
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OK, now that ive viewed it in a different light it may be going a bit far to call it purple, maroon maybe, definately a copper tint to it.
Judge for yourself!
<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/Cusmoke.jpg">
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evildrome
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Hi Axt,
ref: the purple/maroon smoke... I can tell you that cuprous acetylide produces the same colour smoke.
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Axt
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Evildrome from pulse-jets.com?
So, assuming the same decomposition products form the same coloured smoke, the smoke will be predominantly free copper and carbon, for which the
maroon colour does make sence considering the colour of these two. Though I was sure I remembered a copper salt that had a simular colour.... anyone?
Perhaps forming another piece of the puzzle in identifying what the hell it is....?
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chemoleo
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i know it's slightly off topic but... I remember doing the thermite reaction with Cu2O and Al (NOT CuO). Very slow reaction, and HEAPS of orange
red smoke... not purple at all.
I am sorry I know this is bound to confuse you... but then... we all know science is a lot about reporting observations!
Sadly theory doesnt always hold. Nonethelss, I wouldnt worry too much, for something to have a colour suggests either the presence of a transition
metal, or the presence of a heterocyclic /aromatic/ unsaturated compound. It doesnt look like it's going to be any of the three former - apart
from the first one - which is copper.
So here we go - exclusion principle does work 
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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Axt
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This quote should add some closure to the "what is that brown shit" argument, it should be sodium nitroacetate. This quote is from
"The Nitroparaffins" available from polverone-articles folder as nitroalkanes_chemrev.pdf in FTP2.
| Quote: | Nitromethane, compared to other nitroparaffins, is uniquely sensitive to the action of alkali. Sodium or potassium hydroxide converts it to salts of
methazonic acid by a reaction in which two molecules condense with loss of water. This may be interpreted as an addition of nitromethane to the
carbon-nitrogen double bond of the potassium salt, followed by rearrangement and loss of water.
Upon further treatment with strong alkali, methazonic acid is converted to nitroacetic acid.
The crystalline sodium salt of nitroacetic acid can be obtained directly in a single operation by dropping nitromethane into a 50 percent aqueous
solution of sodium hydroxide maintained at 50°C, heating the solution to boiling for 10min, and cooling. |
Whether it be nitronate/methazonate/nitroacetate, they all should precipitate explosive metal salts.
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chemoleo
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Interesting! I never thought nitroacetic acid could be made so easily !
I had a thought on this. In the other thread, Axt, you mentioned your desire in making some type of nitro acetonperoxide.
Now, I was thinking, if one could condense the nitroacetic acid one would get 1,3 dinitro acetone.
IIRC there is an analogous reaction for the production of acetone: One heats calcium acetate and acetone is distilled off. Could this be done with
Calcium nitroacetate, to distill off 1,3 dinitro acetone?
Then of course this owuld have to be peroxidised... in a similar fashion as with AP... - or, using HCl, one could convert 25% at least to the nitro
analogue of mesitylene.... lovely
PS admittedly the condensation similar as with Caacetate to acetone is likely not to work well or easily with nitroacetate simply because of the
energetic product that results... anyway maybe what could be done is to mix Ca-nitroacetate with Caacetate in 1:1 proportions, then distill (so the
overall conc. of dinitroacetone is not soo much!). 1/4 should be acetone, 1/2 nitroacetone and 1/4 dinitroacetone. Surely they could be separated
somehow?
[Edited on 3-8-2004 by chemoleo]
[Edited on 3-8-2004 by chemoleo]
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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Nick F
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Heating nitroacetates, distilling dinitroacetone... you scare me!
I don't expect nitroacetates to be very stable when heated:
O2N-CH2-COOM --> CH2=NOOM (boom!) + CO2
In fact, isn't that basically a stage which occurs in the production of NM, where M is H and NM adopts its usual structure?
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chemoleo
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Lol, yes, I soon realised the fallacy in my argument 
Is there a less thermally dependent way of condensing acetates to acetone, or nitro acetates to nitro acetones?
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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Nick F
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Some sort of crazy claisen reaction, followed by a decarboxylation? Which should, I think, happen quite readily...
I'm just trying to think if I have remembered what a claisen reaction is correctly (!), I'll check...
Edit: I wouldn't be at all surprised if the nitro groups interfered though...
Wait, dinitroacetone has never been prepared, has it?
[Edited on 3-8-2004 by Nick F]
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tokat
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METHYL NITROACETATE
[Acetic acid, nitro-, methyl ester]
Submitted by S. Zen, M. Koyama, and S. Koto1.
Checked by M. Ando and G. Büchi.
1. Procedure
Caution! Benzene has been identified as a carcinogen; OSHA has issued emergency standards on its use. All procedures involving benzene should be
carried out in a well-ventilated hood, and glove protection is required.
A. Dipotassium salt of nitroacetic acid. A 3-l., three-necked, round-bottomed flask equipped with a sealed mechanical stirrer, a condenser fitted with
a calcium chloride drying tube, and a pressure-equalizing dropping funnel is charged with a fresh solution of 224 g. of potassium hydroxide in 112 g.
of water. From the dropping funnel is added, over 30 minutes (Note 1), 61 g. (1.0 mole) of nitromethane. The reaction mixture is heated to reflux for
1 hour in an oil bath maintained at approximately 160° (Note 2). After cooling to room temperature, the precipitated crystalline product is filtered,
washed several times with methanol, and dried in a vacuum desiccator under reduced pressure, yielding 71.5–80.0 g. (79–88%) of the dipotassium
salt of nitroacetic acid, m.p. 262° (dec.).
B. Methyl nitroacetate. A 2-l., three-necked, round-bottomed flask equipped with a sealed mechanical stirrer, a pressure-equalizing dropping funnel
fitted with a calcium chloride drying tube, and a thermometer is charged with 70 g. (0.39 mole) of finely powdered dipotassium salt of nitroacetic
acid (Note 4) and 465 ml. (11.6 moles) of methanol.
The reaction mixture is cooled to −15° ± 3° and 116 g. (1.16 moles) of concentrated sulfuric acid is added with vigorous stirring over
approximately 1 hour at such a rate that the reaction temperature is maintained at −15°. The reaction mixture is allowed to warm to room
temperature over a 4-hour period and stirred for another 4 hours at room temperature. The precipitate is removed by suction filtration, and the
filtrate is concentrated on a rotary evaporator at 30–40°. The residual oil is dissolved in benzene and washed with water. The organic layer is
dried over anhydrous sodium sulfate, and the benzene is removed by distillation. Further distillation under reduced pressure yields 30–32 g.
(66–70%) of methyl nitroacetate, b.p. 80–82° (8 mm.), 111–113° (25 mm.) (Note 5).
2. Notes
1. The reaction mixture heats to 60–80° during the addition of nitromethane. The mixture may require external heating to maintain this temperature.
The initial, yellowish color begins to turn red-brown and gradually deepens as ammonia gas is liberated.
2. The reaction mixture should not be stirred mechanically during this period in order to avoid decomposition of the product.
3. This crude product is rather pure. It can and should be employed for the esterification step without further purification. Elemental analyses for
C2HO4NK2 were as follows; calculated: C, 13.26; H, 0.56; N, 7.73; K, 43.16%, found: C, 13.27; H, 0.57; N, 7.80; K, 42.68%. This is a hygroscopic
crystalline powder and should be used immediately after drying. There is a report2 regarding an explosion of the dry dipotassium salt prepared by
another method. There is no evidence that this procedure produces the same unstable impurities.
4. This must be ground into a fine powder with a mortar and pestle immediately prior to use.
5. The spectral properties of the product are as follows; IR (neat) cm.−1: 1776, 1760; 1H NMR (CDCl3), δ (multiplicity, number of protons,
assignment): 3.83 (s, 3H, OCH3), 5.20 (s, 2H, CH2); nD20 1.4260.
3. Discussion
Methyl nitroacetate has been prepared from nitromethane via the dipotassium salt of nitroacetic acid by the classical Steinkopf method,3 but in lower
yield. The dipotassium salt was obtained in 45% yield. The method has been improved by Matthews and Kubler,4 but the salt must be recrystallized prior
to esterification.
This procedure5 is an improvement in that the reaction time is reduced and the yield is improved by increasing the concentration of alkali.
The acid-catalyzed esterification has been accomplished with either hydrochloric acid3 or sulfuric acid;6 an improvement on the Steinkopf method has
been reported,7 but the procedure lacks the simplicity of the present method.
Application of sulfuric acid as the catalyst is considered more practical for esterification because of its higher boiling point, its incompatibility
with benzene, and the stability of nitroacetic acid in the reaction mixture, which allows omission of the final neutralization step.
The ethyl ester can also be prepared from ethyl acetoacetate (ethyl 3-oxobutanoate) by the method of Rodionov8 as well as via Steinkopf's
method.3 Ethyl nitroacetate can be prepared in >70% yield5 from the dipotassium salt, ethanol, and sulfuric acid, using anhydrous magnesium sulfate
to avoid the Nef reaction.9 The propyl and 2-propyl esters can also be obtained by this method.
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AndersHoveland
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mercury methazonate
Mercury methazonate, which is a compound similar to mercury fulminate, is formed from the reaction of solutions of mercuric chloride with the "sodium
salt of nitromethane" (actually sodium methazonate)
Nitromethane quickly reacts with a concentrated solution of sodium hydroxide to form the sodium salt of methazonic acid (alternatively named sodium
2-nitroethanaloximate),
(2) CH3NO2 + NaOH HON=CHCH=NO2Na + (2) H2O
The dry sodium methazonate salt is highly shock-sensitive and can explode violently.
When nitromethane is mixed with a concentrated solution of ammonium hydroxide, after several hours the liquid develops a dark brown color and a
crystal substance begins to form. The small crystals formed a colored and difficult to purify. In a bottle, 20 cc (cm3) of pure nitromethane is mixed
with 8 cc of the ammonia solution, and ammonia gas is then bubbled into the mixture until it is complely saturated (until no more gas can dissolve). A
cap is then placed on the bottle and the bottle is kept under 10degC for about a day. The crystals which separate out are then removed and gently
crushed into a moist powder. The powder is placed on an unglazed clay tile to draw out the water and allowed to air dry. The residual liquid still in
the bottle is again saturated with ammonia gas and the process is repeated as before. This mehod will yield about 12 grams of the crystal substance.
The crystals are soluble in methanol, less soluble in ethanol, and nearly insoluble in ether or chloroform. When the crystals are heated, they
decompose, producing some poisonous hydrogen cyanide gas.
The crystals are ammonium 2-nitroethanaloximate, with the formula
NH4(+) C2H3N2O3(-). The structure can be written HON=CHCH=NO2(-).
The crystals can be redissolved in water and will react with a solution of silver nitrate to form a pale yellow precipitate. The precipitate is
filtered and washed with a mixture of alcohol and water, then air dried. Heating the silver salt near 100degC causes it to explode. The salt easily
dissolves in dilute solutions of nitric acid or ammonia. It has the formula AgC2H3N2O3.
If the 2-nitroethanaloximate ion is acidified, methazonic acid is formed with the structure: HON=CHCH2NO2. This is done by dissolving the ammonium
salt in a solution with the corresponding ammount of dilute sulfuric acid (just enough to react), then extracting the acid with ether. The ether
extraction is dried with calcium chloride and evaporated under vacuum. Methazonic acid crystallizes into crystal plates, and readily changes into a
red resinous substance. The acid is soluble in water, alcohol, ether,acetone, warm benzene, and chloroform. Solutions of the acid are colorless, but
on standing after a short time, a dark red color develops, and then eventually changes into a red colored resin. The acids melts between 60-70 degC.
During the heating there is partial decomposition, and as the heating is continued the clear crystals first turn red, then gradually darken. At
100degC gas is evolved. At 110degC the acid explodes, leaving a black residue.
“Action of the Alkalies on the nitro-compounds of the Paraffin Series” Dunstan and Gouldin
"Mercuric chloride produces in a solution of sodium methazonate a yellow precipitate which is chiefly composed of basic mercuric methazonate.
This salt explodes when heated, and is converted by dilute hydrochloric acid into a soluble, crystalline mercuric methazonate. The lead salt
is insoluble, and explodes on heating."
Technical reports and scientific papers By Commonwealth Institute (Great Britain) Scientific and Technical Dept
Production of actual fulminates using nitromethane may be possible. I found these reactions:
Dehydration of nitroethane, using phenyl isocyanate and triethylamine, yields acetonitrile oxide. CH3CNO
Thermal dehydrochlorination of a hydroximoyl chlorides yields nitrile oxides.
RCCl=NOH (heat, minus HCl) -- > RCNO
(phosgene oxime Cl2C=NOH might be a suitable reactant in the above reaction, it can be produced by hypochlorite chlorination of nitromethane to
chloropicrin, followed by reduction with Sn/HCl, but I am unsure whether the reaction would work if the R is a hydrogen atom)
Here is a video showing the deflagration of the sodium salt of nitromethane.
Note that it is incorrectly labeled "methylnitrolate". It should actually be "methazonate" or "2-nitroethanaloximate".
sodium methylnitrolate has the structure Na(+) (-)O2N=C(NO)CH3
the extra charge in the anion is delocalized and so the structure could also be shown as (-)ON=C(NO2)CH3,
which is to say that there is not actually any double bond in the charged molecule, it is actually aromatic, with the extra charge resonating between
the nitro and nitroso group.
sodium methazonate has the structure Na(+) (-)O2N=CHCH2=NOH
(the anion is probably trimerized, since formaldoxime CH2=NOH exists as a trimer when in solid form)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iscHVlucDfI&feature=relat...
you may want to save this video, as such videos are often removed after several months.
-=PLEASE DON'T MULTI-POST=- This are some good reasons, especially issues with the Search engine why we ask this, thanks -
- Moderator
[Edited on 4-5-2011 by quicksilver]
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AndersHoveland
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It should be possible to form lead fulminate simply by mixing lead acetate, nitromethane, and acetic anhydride. Nitromethane can apparently be
dehydrated to fulminic acid.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0040403997...
[Edited on 16-8-2011 by AndersHoveland]
I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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AndersHoveland
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"Potassium nitroacetate, KO2N:CHCO2K, is formed by boiling fulminuric acid, nitroacetonitrile, nitroacetamide, or methazonic acid* with aqueous KOH.
It crystallizes from concentrated aqueous alcoholic KOH and gives an intense red color with FeCl3. The lead salt is white, while the mercuric and
silver salts are yellow. All three explode when heated, the last most strongly. Dilute H2SO4 converts the salt into nitromethane and CO2. The yield of
the potassium salt is, in each case, excellent."
Chemical abstracts, Volume 3, p2439
American Chemical Society
*[methazonic acid is formed by acidifying methazonate salts. Reacting nitromethane with alkaline aqueous solution produces a methazonate salt, whereas
in the absence of water, the salt of nitromethane alternatively results. Methazonic acid has the formula HON=CHCH2NO2. There is more information about
methazonic acid elsewhere in this forum]
So basically the mercury fulminate is converted into fulminic acid, which can then be converted into nitroacetate, and then finally into nitromethane.
So nitromethane can be prepared from fulminates.
More information about Methazonic Acid
"The following improved method for the preparation of methazonic acid has been worked out: To a solution of NaOH (20g) in H2O (40 cc), at 45-50degC,
nitromethane (20g) is added gradually, during 15 minutes. Towards the end of the addition the temperature is allowed to rise to 53degC. After
remaining until it has cooled to 20degC, the liquid is neutralized with HCl (45cc, density 1.170) the temperature being kept below 10degC. This
precipitates the methazonic acid. Yield, 13-15g."
[Edited on 15-11-2011 by AndersHoveland]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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It is funny to see that methazonic acid (2-nitro-acetaldoxime; 2-nitro-ethanaldoxime) is related to furoxane...
O2N-CH2-CH2-N=O <--> O2N-CH2-CH=N-OH <--> HO-N(O)=CH-CH=N-OH <--> H2O + cyclo(-N(O)=CH-CH=N-O-)
From that one can see that 1,2-dinitrosoethane is also glyoxaldioxime and related to furazane...
O=N-CH2-CH2-N=O <--> HO-N=CH-CH=N-OH <--> H2O + cyclo (-N=CH-CH=N-O)
One can suspect that 1,2-dinitroethane may lead after dehydration to a more oxygenated compound (furazan-NN'-dioxide)
O2N-CH2-CH2-NO2 <--> HO-N(O)=CH-CH=N(O)-OH <--> H2O + cyclo (-N(O)=CH-CH=N(O)-O-)
One step further...1,2-dinitroethane can react with HNO2 (methanol, NaNO2, H2SO4) to form nitronic acids...in this case
1,2-dinitro-1,2-dinitroso-ethane...
O2N-CH2-CH2-NO2 + 2HNO2 --> (CH(-NO2)(-NO))2 + 2 H2O
The later would generate:
HO-N(O)=C(-NO)-C(-NO)=N(O)-OH
or
HO-N(O)=C(-NO)-C(-NO2)=N-OH
or
HO-N=C(-NO2)-C(-NO2)=N-OH
and be precursor after dehydration of dinitrofurazan, nitrofuroxan, or dinitrosofurazan-NN'-dioxide.
It is interesting to note that no mather the enantiomers of 1,2-dinitro-1,2-dinitroso-ethane, they will all lead to the same terminal molecule because
of the equilibrium due to proton-jump between the carbon and the oxygen and conversion of the carbons into sp2...
[Edited on 16-11-2011 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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AndersHoveland
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Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  | It is funny to see that methazonic acid (2-nitro-acetaldoxime; 2-nitro-ethanaldoxime) is related to furoxane...
O2N-CH2-CH2-N=O <--> O2N-CH2-CH=N-OH <--> HO-N(O)=CH-CH=N-OH <--> H2O + cyclo(-N(O)=CH-CH=N-O-)
From that one can see that 1,2-dinitrosoethane is also glyoxaldioxime and related to furazane...
O=N-CH2-CH2-N=O <--> HO-N=CH-CH=N-OH <--> H2O + cyclo (-N=CH-CH=N-O)
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Interesting perspective; of course the molecule of water would only dehydrate out from pressure cooking with KOH. There would not be any equilibrium
with furazan under ordinary conditions. One exception however- 1,2-dinitrosoethylene may likely [?] tautomerize with the furazan.
There was a paper about this somewhere, I think it said this was much less favorable if the two nitroso groups were not both on another aromatic ring,
for exaple 1,2-dinitrosobenzene.
There was another thread in this forum where we speculated that methazonic acid may likely be aromatic (with delocalized bonding). It was somewhere in
this thread:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16118
There are all sorts of interesting tautomerizations involving adjacent nitro groups and furoxans on an aromatic ring. Essentially, the nitro group can
essentially exchange places with the furazan!
[Edited on 18-11-2011 by AndersHoveland]
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Rhodanide
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Hi all, doubt anyone will see this, but it's worth a try. I did the same thing as you all, but subbed the water with Methanol. I got a yellow soln
with yellow granular crystals at this bottom, in considerable amount. I soaked up the MeOH w/ a napkin and stored it damp with Methanol in a plastic
chem bottle. Not sure, but it looks to be about twenty grams. Since it isn't dry, (and soaked with Methanol) it burns off the Methanol and then
sputters, like it wants to self sustain. I haven't tried any other tests, but I'll update when I get around to it. Any thoughts, pointers, or
suggestions are appreciated.
-T / AzideN3
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