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Author: Subject: Another home lab gets busted...
zed
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[*] posted on 19-11-2008 at 00:55


2-Methyl Indole is basically odorless. And, since the outlined procedure isn't illegal, it really isn't a game. But, that isn't the point.

The point is, while working under the umbrella of a friendly University, you can play to your heart's content, without legal complications. Provided of course, that you avoid outright illegality.
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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 19-11-2008 at 03:22


And also, of course, provided you know where to draw the line between outright illegality and playing to your heart's content.
Would the defense "educational purposes" be of any use, I wonder?
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[*] posted on 19-11-2008 at 04:10


I suppose JohnWW was thinking of 1-methylindole (skatole, N-methylindole.)

AFAIK that is not illegal, either.




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JohnWW
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[*] posted on 19-11-2008 at 10:03


Indole itself is highly odiferous, so one must expect that most, if not all, of the (singly methylated) methylindole isomers, including skatole, would be also.

BTW In the references section, this article about indole derivatives has just been posted:
posted on 20-11-08 at 01:48
Indoles and related compounds as cannabinoid ligands
Manera C, Tuccinardi T, Martinelli A
MINI-REVIEWS IN MEDICINAL CHEMISTRY Volume: 8 Issue: 4 Pages: 370-387
Mini-Reviews in Medicinal Chemistry, 2008, 8, 370-387.pdf (399.83 KiB)
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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 19-11-2008 at 10:22


Cannabinoids can screw-up your perception of passing time, but that article was (will be?) posted tomorrow---wow! can weed really do that?
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zed
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[*] posted on 20-11-2008 at 03:37


Indole has a mild floral fragrance, I never thought it to be especially stinky.

As for 2-Methyl-Indole, I have synthesized it. I can assure you, at normal temperatures, pure 2-Methyl-Indole does not emit a particularly strong odor.

But, don't take my word for it. The synthesis requires only Phenyl-Hydrazine, Acetone, ZnCl2, good ventilation, a stirring rod, and a couple of beakers.
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[*] posted on 25-11-2008 at 10:37


"Wait for the forensics results."

I can give you my prediction. He is legitimately interested in chemistry and really was working with antibiotics. But he also got fascinated with making that "totally awesome" drug that he bought last week so he started to use some of his knowledge to attempt to make a small amount, just to see if he could.

Of course I don't even need to state my stance on this matter (in case you're not familiar with my opinions, I think he should be released NOW, told to take the more "dangerous" stuff from the lab until he gets a house, have all of his possessions reimbursed and be left alone). Let's just say I think that all of us will be in some form of legal trouble at some point (without lots of luck) and cases like this are just proof that this is getting closer to home.

Like I always say, who doesn't have something that, under a lot of scrutiny, could be considered illegal or some kind of infraction? Nobody. That's like police state establishment 101. Make everyone a potential criminal so anyone can be arrested at any time for any reason. (I wonder if there's one person in this country who has never broken the law?)

I'd better stop before I start sounding like a conspiracy nut!




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zed
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[*] posted on 25-11-2008 at 14:00


Organic chemistry has undergone a rapid evolution during the last 30-40 years.

Combine that evolution with vastly improved information access (via sites like this one), and you end up with a large population of "loose cannon" chemists, who really could, if they were so inclined, make mountains of drugs, poisons, or explosives......Using commonly available materials.

Knowing what I know, I keep NO CHEMICALS OR GLASSWARE in my home.

Books, papers, a computer.......No problem! I don't dispute that I have the requisite knowledge. I just make damn sure that I am not in possession of the requisite means. I don't like trouble.

When I really get the itch to play with chemistry, I make arrangements to work where I'm not at hazard.
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 25-11-2008 at 21:13


To each his own but to me, living life by the unjust rules of tyrannical bureaucrats and paranoid, elitist, control happy citizens is not living at all. I would almost rather take the chance than live in bondage.

I know it sounds so cliche but didn't someone once say, "I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees"?

In my mind, if I get rid of my equipment, "they" win. I live on my knees.

Call me childish. Call me naive or selfish. Call me what you will. But everyone has principles. At least they should. And those are mine.

Sorry to be so preachy guys but this is just what I feel strongly about.


Quote:

Combine that evolution with vastly improved information access (via sites like this one), and you end up with a large population of "loose cannon" chemists, who really could, if they were so inclined, make mountains of drugs, poisons, or explosives......Using commonly available materials.


Fear mongering plain and simple. Are you sure you're at the correct forum?




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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IrC
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[*] posted on 25-11-2008 at 22:05


"who really could, if they were so inclined, make mountains of drugs, poisons, or explosives.."

But they do not. Just like the billion or so drivers in the world do not kamikazee others with their vehicles every day (except in
Boston, but who cares what they do in the nanny state minded liberal northeast anyway). Just because they might is crapola for justification of draconian laws. Are you out of your freaking mind Zed for even making that post?

How about this. Life, liberty, and happiness. Who the hell is anyone to tell me I must be happy even though they decided I could not be trusted with my science? Where is the justification? By this I mean where are all the news stories about legitimate private experimenters gone insane which justify the present and future laws? Simply because terrorists ( or drug makers) exist is no reason to damn private research by the majority who are decent citizens with the gift to experiment. We have no lobby and no representation is all and I defy you to show how this justifies your opinion (or theirs).

So terrorists and drug makers are out of control? Then do your job LEO, bust those with illegal drugs and explosives, and leave honest experimenters alone! You let them go in the courts for real crimes and persecute others with clean records merely for having the means to create the evil you devise in your twisted minds!
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[*] posted on 25-11-2008 at 22:34


Well, there are a lot of lazy shits in LE who prefer soft targets, and are content to pretend they are earning their green checks, rather than doing anything of substance to combat crime.

After all, real criminals shoot back.

This work unethic is in parallel with legislators at al levels who find it more expedient to write legislation that appears to deal with crime rather than actually doing so. Examples abound in and out of chemistry related areas.

HOWEVER as management has a strong policy against posts about drugs policy, we can't go there, and an even longer standing policy against posts about gun control so we can't go there either.

Therefore, enough said.




Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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[*] posted on 25-11-2008 at 22:52


Quote:

To each his own but to me, living life by the unjust rules of tyrannical bureaucrats and paranoid, elitist, control happy citizens is not living at all. I would almost rather take the chance than live in bondage.

Amen.

Quote:

I know it sounds so cliche but didn't someone once say, "I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees"?


I have seen this attributed to Emilio Zapata, and to Joseph Stalin (during the Battle of Stalingrad). Any other claimants?
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[*] posted on 25-11-2008 at 23:32


Quote:
Originally posted by IrC
How about this. Life, liberty, and happiness. Who the hell is anyone to tell me I must be happy


Which was, I believe, Madison's argument to Jefferson, who thus changed it to "persuit of happiness" as we know it today.

Ya know, it's scary to think what the world would be like if that were changed back, though... and we've already got mind-altering drugs for our children just because school says so...

Tim




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IrC
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[*] posted on 26-11-2008 at 03:18


I see your point but you did not quote the whole line. My meaning was if they decide I am no longer allowed to pursue science on my own as I have done freely for over 40 years then happiness becomes not possible thereby violating my constitutional rights. Attacks along the lines of "well you cannot build nuclear weapons either and your mere possession of research materials is the same as illicit nukes" does not fly in the face of decades of safe peaceful experiments with no police record.

I managed to make it this far without causing or exposing anyone else to danger so their work to completely eradicate all possibility of my private research is completely without justification on their part. The fact that they go out of their way to include me in their protect society from the criminal program with no effort to exempt legitimate private science compounds the wrong on their part.

I wish many of you could have been doing experiments in the 60's and 70's. What a wonderful world it was then. Too bad all the new people running the show in the last 30 years have wrecked what used to be a good planet. They will not stop until they make themselves feel so safe that life for the rest of us no longer has meaning. Our children will be so stupid they cannot use the toilet alone but they do great delivering take out. One thing I know for sure was during the middle of the Cuban missile crises life was so much better than what they are making it into today I wish I could go back in time.

In short I really wish all the new people would stop ruining what used to be a decent planet.

I should add: the origin of this thread in my mind likely was working towards drug making and if so he also is one of these new people ruing things for the rest of us. If not he was still a dumb SOB for starting a lab in an occupied structure for many reasons. Not the least of which is even if he did not try drug making he still put another nail in our collective public coffin. Therefore he gets no sympathy from me. Let him pay for his stupidity.

[Edited on 11-26-2008 by IrC]
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zed
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[*] posted on 1-12-2008 at 04:49


Piffle. This is the legal forum.

Keeping Glassware, Chemicals, and a lot of possibly incriminating chemical reference material.....ALL together in the same room, in a private residence....To my way of thinking, that would be a Bad Move!

Since I have mountains of chemical reference material around, I choose not to have chemicals or lab equipment around. From some perspectives, seeing all that stuff together, might look bad. It could cause legal problems.

I'm being pragmatic. I don't like trouble.

As for conditions 30 or 40 years ago; in those days, in my neck of the woods, If law enforcement types came upon what appeared to be a functioning home laboratory......They generally arrested whoever was present, and seized the lab. If you were arrested, and you were innocent of wrongdoing, in due time, you might win an acquittal, and thereafter you could sue for the return of your equipment.

45 to 50 years ago, before the emergence of "speed chemists", home labs might have been considered completely OK. But, beginning in the early sixties, they became decidedly suspect.

If you want to avoid legal difficulties, find a way to avoid the appearance of possible impropriety.

Me, I prefer to work at a University.
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[*] posted on 1-12-2008 at 09:24


Let me tell you what I've done lately. It's a major inconvienience but less so than going to jail for life (yes, that's possible if they think you're making meth; how much "proof" they need for a life sentence I don't know but I don't want to risk it).

I have destroyed ALL print copies of all of my reference papers. All I have left are books and I'm even thinking about digitizing those and selling them. Then, I store all of those in an encrypted partition on my hard drive. Hopefully, it would take so much work to break the encryption that they would need a lot of proof just to get the okay to try it. Who knows, maybe their "proof" would be that I have an encrypted drive in the first place.

A similar line of thinking has affected me before. When the cops searched my apartment they took my safe. They said that the very fact that I had a safe was proof (to them anyway) that I was doing something wrong. What's funny is they ended up not even opening it because I was so willing to let them (there was nothing in it but financial papers at the time).

Do you guys think the encryption thing is a good idea? How long would it take them to break PGP's encryption? Would they try just because they found glassware/chemicals?

Also, I've been thinking of ways to make "flash paper" (paper that burns within a second or two). I can't really directly nitrate paper/cellulose right now as I am basically out of HNO3 (and can't make more at this moment; I suppose I could use a nitrate, though). I wonder how effective it would be to dissolve nitrocellulose in a solvent, soak the paper in it and then dry it out? I think I will try it unless someone else has found it to be ineffective.

That way I can use those pieces of paper to write notes/passwords on and if anything happens I can destroy them at a moments notice. Hell, I could even set-up ignition switches at key locations for it. Wow, maybe I'm being too paranoid. But it can't hurt, right?




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 2-12-2008 at 13:48


MagicJigPipe, you might want to try out this freeware program:

http://www.truecrypt.org/

As you can see, it supports completely hidden encrypted partitions (on two levels), encrypted data is impossible to distinguish from random data etc. I believe it to be the best choice in a situation like that. As for flash paper, that would probably just raise more suspicion than really necessary (and what if you ignite it by accident?).




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zed
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[*] posted on 2-12-2008 at 14:16


I always assume the worst.

Therefore, I assume your encryption will not hold up.

If U.S. Federal Agents target you, they will delve deep indeed.

And, since your papers, computer records, and handwritten notes.......Are a major means by which they will attempt to prove intent, they will hit that stuff hard.

You can develop plenty of legal problems, without having done anything illegal. And, even if you are eventually found blameless, it will cost you plenty....in time, money, and reputation.
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[*] posted on 3-12-2008 at 00:40


Quote:
Originally posted by zed
I always assume the worst.

Therefore, I assume your encryption will not hold up.

If U.S. Federal Agents target you, they will delve deep indeed.

And, since your papers, computer records, and handwritten notes.......Are a major means by which they will attempt to prove intent, they will hit that stuff hard.

You can develop plenty of legal problems, without having done anything illegal. And, even if you are eventually found blameless, it will cost you plenty....in time, money, and reputation.


As has already been said here, I find that getting rid of all notes, literature, glassware, chemicals etc does not solve the problem. It just means that they have won and maybe next they will come up with cameras for every apartment and residence. (oh don't worry, if you aren't involved in any illegal activities, you have nothing to fear, why should you oppose this idea unless you have something to hide?) But we are already all criminals. Besides,NO goverment needs people who can think for themselves as those are most immune to propaganda and brainwashing. These kind of people were the first to be sent to GULAG prison camps in the Soviet Union. Actively pursuing science is educating and fun. Amateur scientists just might not find happiness in buying fancier cars or big screen TV's and that is of course unacceptable to big coporations which influence the politics more than ever. That, and the fact that they want to make people as relying and helpless as possible.
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[*] posted on 3-12-2008 at 10:36


Quote:
Originally posted by zed
I always assume the worst.

Therefore, I assume your encryption will not hold up.

If U.S. Federal Agents target you, they will delve deep indeed.
meless, it will cost you plenty....in time, money, and reputation.


That really depends on how hard they are trying to hit you.

If they are just raiding you for having a home lab, illegal or not, they aren't going to take the time to send your hard drives to the NSA supercomputers for decryption. Instead, they'll look for hard copies of anything laying around. But even then, they won't spend too much time on it.

Unless you're making chemical weapons, biological weapons, phenomenal amounts of drugs, or phenomenal amounts of explosives they won't sick the supercomputers on you.
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 3-12-2008 at 16:32


I would imagine so. Even though it's always best to assume the worst, if you can't have even encrypted files what DO you have? That's as far as I'm willing to go when it comes to hiding my materials because the only thing left after that is physically burying them or complete destruction.

If every lab's HDs were sent for decryption wouldn't this cost a lot of money? And time? And tie up the computers that could otherwise be decrypting "military" data? Although, not much is more important to the govt. than harassing people who they think must be making drugs or bombs.

Sometimes I wonder if "they" are so dumb as to think home experimenter's are really a threat or so "smart" that their ultimate goal is to actually silence those who can think for themselves and/or potentially oppose them if they abuse their power.

It sounds so "conspiracy theoryish" but I often wonder, "Is it really so far-fetched?"

Some say that if there was some sort of plan like that being perpetrated that, because of the vast amounts of people involved, someone would talk. I thought about that. Then I thought of a question that might be significant. What if the lower people just think they are protecting the country or eradicating drugs and only a few know its true purpose.

And before you guys say anything there is nothing wrong with thinking about these things (conspiracy theories) as long as you only accept real proof before you believe them. "Theorizing" is perfectly healthy IMO.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 3-12-2008 at 17:08


The very act of posting on a forum such a this incurs an risk that can be completely avoided by not posting at all.

And that statement is proportionally more valid the more drug related the forum.

QED
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 3-12-2008 at 17:54


Quote:
Originally posted by Radon
The very act of posting on a forum such a this incurs an risk that can be completely avoided by not posting at all.


The very act of β incurs a risk that can be completely avoided by not doing it at all.

β > < = driving, eating, playing dominoes, chewing bubble gum, having sex or leaving one's home

Where would it end? If this is an argument I believe it is invalid.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 3-12-2008 at 17:58


...driving, eating, playing dominoes, chewing bubble gum, having sex or leaving one's home

Seems to me I can quickly recognize tangible benefits of those acts.

Posting on forums...Less so.

How's that for a valid point.
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[*] posted on 3-12-2008 at 20:04


I'm sorry you don't believe acquisition of knowledge to have tangible benefits at least on par with those of chewing gum and playing dominoes.

[Edited on 12-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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