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mr.crow
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potassium permanganate in Canada
Heres a question that has been bugging me. If you look at the restricted precursors in Canada, potassium permanganate is on the list!
Now a quick look at rhodium reveals that it is used to purify cocaine in South America. So its illegal to export a 50kg sack to Colombia, but what
about buying or owning a small amount?
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JohnWW
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If Canada's red-coated Gestapo, the Royal Canadian Mounted Pigs, are going to classify KMnO4 as a "restricted precursor", they would have to also ban
all Mn compounds, which is practically impossible! Mn is a fairly common metal, most often found in nature as pyrolusite, MnO2, found in black masses
in certain areas of basaltic eruptions (there is a deposit near where I live, although too small to be economical to mine), and in metalliferous
nodules deposited on deep ocean floors; the stuff is used widely as a support medium in "dry cell" batteries, from which it can be extracted. Mn is
widely used to make manganese steel, known for its tensile properties; and MnSO4 is used as an analytical reagent e.g. in aqueous dissolved oxygen
analysis.
Lower-valent Mn compounds can be fairly easily converted to permanganate by dissolution to give anionic species with excess KOH, which can then be
electrolytically oxidized; or reacted with plumbate (IV) or bismuthate(V); or solid MnO2 can be fused with a mixture of KNO3 and KOH.
Besides, for purifications involving oxidation, there are several other reagents that can be made to substitute for permanganate, depending on the
situation, particularly: OsO4 (rather too expensive), chromate or dichromate(VI), ferrate(VI), plumbate(IV), chlorate(V), perchlorate(VII),
periodate(VII), perxenate(VIII) (rather too expensive), H2O2, O3, hypochlorite, Cl2, and persulfate. All these would also have to be banned, along
with electrolytic cells. They might as well try to ban EVERYTHING, including even hematite, Fe2O3 (a mineral of very wide occurrence, especially in
Australia), because it can be used to make ferrate(VI), the substitute that most closely resembles permanganate.
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entropy51
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| Quote: | | They might as well try to ban EVERYTHING |
John, is KMnO4 really banned in Canada or elsewhere? I am skeptical of that. Why don't you see what the Canadian law really says
about KMnO4 instead of getting your knickers in a twist over every perceived persecution by the devil bureacrats.
KMnO4 is also Listed in the United States, but they sell it in one, two, or six pound containers in the local hardware stores. Completely OTC, no questions
asked, no ID required. That is hardly banned.
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12AX7
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John, it looks like you took your dollarsign meds today, but neglected the Gestapo meds.
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Sedit
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Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW  | If Canada's red-coated Gestapo, the Royal Canadian Mounted Pigs, are going to classify KMnO4 as a "restricted precursor", they would have to also ban
all Mn compounds, which is practically impossible! Mn is a fairly common metal, most often found in nature as pyrolusite, MnO2, found in black masses
in certain areas of basaltic eruptions (there is a deposit near where I live, although too small to be economical to mine), and in metalliferous
nodules deposited on deep ocean floors; the stuff is used widely as a support medium in "dry cell" batteries, from which it can be extracted. Mn is
widely used to make manganese steel, known for its tensile properties; and MnSO4 is used as an analytical reagent e.g. in aqueous dissolved oxygen
analysis.
Lower-valent Mn compounds can be fairly easily converted to permanganate by dissolution to give anionic species with excess KOH, which can then be
electrolytically oxidized; or reacted with plumbate (IV) or bismuthate(V); or solid MnO2 can be fused with a mixture of KNO3 and KOH.
Besides, for purifications involving oxidation, there are several other reagents that can be made to substitute for permanganate, depending on the
situation, particularly: OsO4 (rather too expensive), chromate or dichromate(VI), ferrate(VI), plumbate(IV), chlorate(V), perchlorate(VII),
periodate(VII), perxenate(VIII) (rather too expensive), H2O2, O3, hypochlorite, Cl2, and persulfate. All these would also have to be banned, along
with electrolytic cells. They might as well try to ban EVERYTHING, including even hematite, Fe2O3 (a mineral of very wide occurrence, especially in
Australia), because it can be used to make ferrate(VI), the substitute that most closely resembles permanganate. |
You must understand John that to them its not about stopping people from synthesizing controled compounds but to make it uneconomical to do so. If
they block KMnO4 then it makes it hard to synthesis something controlled when you have to $ynthesis it all yourself
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Magpie
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| Quote: |
If Canada's red-coated Gestapo, the Royal Canadian Mounted Pigs, are going to classify KMnO4 as a "restricted precursor",
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John, this comment really got my mind racing and I just had to come up with an appropriate graphic. Credits to my #2 son.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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JohnWW
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Hmm ... That Pig is is wearing jackboots, as I would expect; but not a swastika armband, the death's head insignia on his cap, or SS shoulder-flashes.
[Edited on 25-10-09 by JohnWW]
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gsd
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LOL
BTW The $ sign it seems is reserved for U$ of A 
John is at his sarcastic and acidic best (always hits the "pH zero") while dealing with the original $ country.
gsd
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Magpie
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| Quote: |
John is at his sarcastic and acidic best (always hits the "pH zero") while dealing with the original $ country.
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Yes, but he can also hit pH14 when giving caustic commentary and $ardonic $ocial $atire.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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gsd
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LOL
$ardonic $ocial AND $OCIALIST $atire
gsd
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aonomus
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But pH extends down well into the negatives for superacids like fluoroantimonic acid.... so by comparison, pH zero is weak 
I do agree that the idea is to prevent any large scale synthesis by making it hard to get reagents in bulk. We *could* synthesize it on our own for
alot of things, but never as pure and cheaply as an industrial process. I'm surprised electrolytic cells haven't been banned for fear of producing
metallic sodium, or KI banned since you can use H2O2 to produce I2...
On the flip side, I'm happy that certain compounds like hydrazines are restricted in Canada (I spoke with my professor who said he had to deal with
the RCMP alot since he uses hydrazines in his research), because its darn energetic....
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UnintentionalChaos
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| Quote: Originally posted by aonomus | But pH extends down well into the negatives for superacids like fluoroantimonic acid.... so by comparison, pH zero is weak
I do agree that the idea is to prevent any large scale synthesis by making it hard to get reagents in bulk. We *could* synthesize it on our own for
alot of things, but never as pure and cheaply as an industrial process. I'm surprised electrolytic cells haven't been banned for fear of producing
metallic sodium, or KI banned since you can use H2O2 to produce I2...
On the flip side, I'm happy that certain compounds like hydrazines are restricted in Canada (I spoke with my professor who said he had to deal with
the RCMP alot since he uses hydrazines in his research), because its darn energetic.... |
Any strong acid at >1M will be a negative pH. Fluoroantimonic acid reacts explosively with water, so how, pray tell, can you even talk about pH?
Perhaps you'e thinking of Hammet acidity function. The strong acids are already there, though.
Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!
'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
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aonomus
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I hate it when I post 2 minutes after waking up.... 
| Quote: Originally posted by UnintentionalChaos |
Any strong acid at >1M will be a negative pH. Fluoroantimonic acid reacts explosively with water, so how, pray tell, can you even talk about pH?
Perhaps you'e thinking of Hammet acidity function. The strong acids are already there, though. |
I've noticed something else too, its even hard to get glycerine for lubricating glass tubes through stoppers. The pharmacists only carry these
microscopic, fragrence/scented bottles... Perhaps its chemophobia at its finest?
Wouldn't it be better though to restrict the starting materials, instead of the reagents? KMnO4 can be used for many oxidations, but say,
pseudoephedrine found anywhere near glassware only would have 1 use....
Edit: accidentally hit post instead of preview
[Edited on 24-10-2009 by aonomus]
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by aonomus | | IWouldn't it be better though to restrict the starting materials, instead of the reagents? KMnO4 can be used for many oxidations, but say,
pseudoephedrine found anywhere near glassware only would have 1 use.... |
Maybe you haven't heard, but
pseudoephedrine, phenylacetone, phenylacetic acid, benzyl cyanide, benzyl chloride, etc etc are restricted. I'm pretty sure those
are starting materials. And what part of "KMnO4 can be purchased in bulk, no questions asked" is giving you trouble? This whole thread is based on
the false premise that KMnO4 is hard to obtain.
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mr.crow
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I don't think its a false premise. My question is related to Canada because it is on the list of other naughty things.
This is odd for Canada, our list is way shorter and iodine is perfectly legal. We even have an Ebay store in BC selling some really suspicious but
perfectly legal chemicals.
I know in the States you can get large amounts of permanganate at the store for water filters. My theory is KMnO4 is restricted only for international
trade and not local use.
So my real question is if I decide to get say 500g will that be against the law?
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entropy51
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What does the Canadian law
say? As I pointed out, KMnO4 is on the naughty list in the US, but is not illegal to sell or possess. I appears that the law itself is here I see "50 kg" next to KMnO4. Does that mean that only larger sales are reported? Could be. I would read the law carefully.
A key question that you have not addressed is "do they have KMnO4 on the shelves of retail stores for sale to the public?"
Very often sales have to be reported and export is controlled but possession is only illegal if used to make naughty things and then the person is
charged with use of listed chemicals in the manufacture of ..... which increases the sentence if convicted.
[Edited on 24-10-2009 by entropy51]
[Edited on 24-10-2009 by entropy51]
[Edited on 24-10-2009 by entropy51]
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entropy51
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If KMnO4 is banned or restricted in Canada, hardware store didn't get the memo.
What a lot of boxer bunching over nothing.
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Magpie
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from aonomous:
| Quote: |
I've noticed something else too, its even hard to get glycerine for lubricating glass tubes through stoppers. The pharmacists only carry these
microscopic, fragrence/scented bottles... Perhaps its chemophobia at its finest?
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Small 4oz bottles of glycerine seem to be readily available, although outrageously expensive, in US pharmacies - USP grade, I suppose. One store did
have it behind the counter, however. When I asked the pharmacist why, he got a little defensive and said it was just because there wasn't enough
demand for it to be located in regular shelf space.
Will someone please tell me how to get the little name marker on quotes. Thanks.
[Edited on 25-10-2009 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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aonomus
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@ Magpie: click the 'quote' button on someones post to see the formatting
I was at a super walmart today, and they only had a 1oz bottle, scented. There used to be bottles the size of IPA bottles next to each other, but
perhaps demand has dropped (maybe due to new in-ear thermometers that no longer need... assistance?).
I'll have to check a non-big box hardware store, maybe further out from the city before I find any chemicals... alot of water treatment stuff isn't
available in areas with good treated water. If KMnO4 possession isn't outright illegal if not used to make certain compounds, then I should think
about picking up some just in case it does get restricted...
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by aonomus |
I'll have to check a non-big box hardware store, maybe further out from the city before I find any chemicals... alot of water treatment stuff isn't
available in areas with good treated water. |
Where I live KMnO4 is found in Home Depot, which is one of the bigger boxes. Some Sears also carry it.
I find it a little odd that it's so readily available, because this is a large metropolitan area and the water is of course treated. Maybe some think
it needs further treatment...
Most pharmacists would order glycerol for you, but would of course double the price.
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Chemologist
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Out of the 30+ hardware stores in my area only one that I know of still carries KMnO4 and I doubt it is actually still there (this was a year ago when
I last bought some). It is a Home Depot.
Mark my words, soon it will be very difficult to acquire this compound through conventional means and difficult/risky to get it on the internet.
KMnO4 isn't unique in this respect though.
I can only assume that, if this green/safe craze continues for much longer you will need a license to by any chemical that isn't "green". Just
remember, it's for our own good and "nature" never produces anything harmful.
About US
I think the only way governments (State/Fed) will lay off is if they are forced to when the U.S. becomes insolvent (or bankrupt and nobody will loan
us more money or accept our worthless currency for payment). I wonder which territory we will sell (or be forced to give up) first?
Canada, on the other hand--ugh... Is it just me or does Canada always try to emulate what the U.S. is doing? I wonder if they'll commit financial
suicide right after us?
[Edited on 25-10-2009 by Chemologist]
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JohnWW
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In that case, you will have to look at methods of producing the best substitute for permanganate as an oxidant in synthetic organic chemistry, which
is most likely ferrate(VI), of which probably Na2FeO4 would be the best to produce and store, if it cannot be bought. It could be done
electrolytically. I have obtained it in solution, with a characteristic intense magenta color, slightly more reddish than permanganate, simply by
reacting a Fe(III) compound with (alkaline) hypochorite bleach, but it is supposed to be very difficult to crystallize it from such a solution. There
is a thread on it somewhere here.
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aonomus
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I don't know what the forum rules are on political commentary, but since its applicable, I'll try to keep my thoughts short. The Canadian government
is sadly trying to emulate what the US is doing, but people aren't as aware, because it isn't as bad yet. I don't think Canada will ever get as bad as
the US in terms of financial crisis, because at the very least, we still have natural resources and a upstream industry, whereas the US has taken this
entire shift away from any real production, resource gathering, and is only a service industry based country.
And I don't think the state and federal governments *will* ever lay off. In this day and age, with a slowly growing overuse of police power, people
will start to catch on and figure out that there is more job security and power to be a cop, or in general work for government. More and more people
will end up working for the government and it becomes even more dangerous to be an amateur scientist. Or maybe I'm just nutty and too afraid?
As for the chemicals, the green craze is all subjective anyway. Companies have to pay for cleanup fees, insurance fees, etc, while in some cases,
homeowners and residential areas end up being exempt due to small waste production. Yes, the occasional hazardous substance may go down the drain in
suburbs, etc, but you really can't police it, either people don't care, or don't know better. And people simply won't accept people barging in and
inventorying everything. From the business perspective, it seems more reasonable since there are fire safety inspections,
Really, from the storeowners perspective, its also a liability issue, I remember having to look for muriatic acid once, and no stores had any, and I
had to go across Toronto to find a pool store that had its last bottle there. The manager said that its just a hazard and liability. He'd have to
train his staff for what to do if it spilled, have proper storage for the stock, etc. Home depot had the same reasoning, and it didn't want to get
sued into oblivion when (not if) someone got hurt.
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undead_alchemist
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From what I know, the Health Canada list for KMnO4 you can buy up to 50Kg with an EUD filled out. Many of the items on the Health Canada list A, have
limited Quantity exemptions.
Many chemicals that my work sells, we need EUDs on file before they can be sold.
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psychokinetic
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Glycerin is being restricted? That's believable but hard to imagine when it's for sale in bulk foods stores here!
Question time though, I was wondering if any other New Zealandites knew our status on KMnO4 - I've had a look around, even asked our local cop-shop
and they had no idea.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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