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Author: Subject: Cubic acetone peroxide crystals
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 06:21
Cubic acetone peroxide crystals


Dear all,

I just was unpacking some boxes in my basement and I found a shoebox which contained a bag where I accidentally stored TCAP.
It now has a corner with normal TCAP crystals, and going alongside the bag it formed cubic crystals like rocksalt shape...
They are I think 1-2mm diameter.
Are they now quite unstable as they are quite big?
I think of just bringing the box outside and detonating all of it at once or would it still be useable for this newyears evening to come?
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Peroxid
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 07:17


Those crystals are very unstable! How many gramm this kind of TCAP do you have?
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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 07:37


And do Afghans really drop the 'h' in their country's name?
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nitro-genes
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 07:47


Methods for the destruction of organic peroxides are described in the PDF below.

http://energetics.chm.uri.edu/system/files/Peroxide%20Destru...

With crystals of this size such an operation would be quite hazardous though, since each of these large crystals will be able to make DDT (detonate) on its own. Drowning with water or any solvent will be of little use IMO, possibly causing premature detonation. Wearing earplugs and safetyglasses, I would use something like a shovel to take the box outside and detonate it there...

DO NOT HANDLE THESE CRYSTALS ANY OTHER WAY!!! The slightest provocation may set them off!



[Edited on 27-12-2009 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 07:57


Here is another TCAP destruction method:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5003109.pdf
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 08:23


Yes, though they do mention heating the mixture to 110 deg. C., moreover the time needed for complete destruction was not mentioned IIRC. The Zn2+/Zn system provided the fastest destruction times at room temperature according to the PDF above. Zink powder can be aquired easily (Zinc spray), while reacting with HCl will give Zn2+. The latter is at least partially soluble in ethanol, making an easily and OTC aquired peroxide destruction mixture that could be sprayed on leftover TCAP to facilitate it's destruction. :) This will only work however for finely powdered TCAP, not for the large crystals mentioned above...

[Edited on 27-12-2009 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 08:43


I'll take the box outside with a shovel while wearing safetyglasses and set it off there with a LONG fuse...
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 09:36


Take the bag (what mass are we talking here?) and submerge it in acetone. Very carefully open the bag, while still submerged, and allow the TATP to dissolve. If the bag softens or dissolves in acetone, all the better, it will save you the risk of opening the bag. If you must, once all dissolved the TATP can be recovered by adding the acetone to water.

Oh and TATP has a monoclinic crystal, DADP does as well, but the DADP's cell lengths and angles have it looking almost pseudotetragonal...

If you used sulfuric for synthesis, and have been storing for a while, chances are it has converted to DADP....

[Edited on 27-12-09 by The_Davster]




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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 09:49


Hmmm, how can you "accidentally store" some unstable explosive somewhere and forget about it? f you accidentally drop something heavy on it, boom...

If i were you (and if you donĀ“t live in a heavy populated area) I would wear some thick safety glasses and thick leather gloves, carry the shoebox outside, pour some gasoline on it, walk a several meters backwards and throw a lit torch on it.
By doing this you avoid moving the bag (which you have to, if you want to drown the TATP in acetoe or insert a fuse) and thus maybe breaking some crystals which set off the TATP by piezoelectric discharge.


[Edited on 27-12-2009 by hinz]
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 10:07


Having such big crystals of acetone peroxide around sounds like a very stupid thing to me. That is the first thing I want to say.

I certainly would not hassle with the bag. Carefully take the complete box to a place far from the house and do NOT transport the bag on its own, keep it in the box. Formation of a wrinkle in the plastic bag can cause a detonation so never handle the bag outside the box and also assure that wind does not cause wrinkles in the plastic bag. Once you have it far from the house do as hinz suggests!




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nitro-genes
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 10:12


If the TCAP was finely powdered I would agree to add acetone to dissolve the TCAP. However, the size of the crystals makes that adding water or a solvent will have little effect on its sensitivity. Even under water these crystals will explode with vigour when provoked. Acetone is flammable as well, premature detonation while adding it could do some serious harm.

I would not get close to that shit anyway if I were you, certainly not opening the bag!!! A bag is very flexible, no matter how carefull you are, it will put some force on the crystals inside.

[Edited on 27-12-2009 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 10:15


Quote: Originally posted by hinz  

carry the shoebox outside, pour some gasoline on it, walk a several meters backwards and throw a lit torch on it.


Let me add this should be done in a pit so that it is not
in direct line of sight and therefore not visible.
That is how EOD does it , and with remote ignition
from a good distance away besides.

.
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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 15:42


What type of bag is it in? ziploc? or just a baggie twist-tied closed? If it is ziploc I would not try to open it at all. Again, what mass are we talking here?

If you are in an area that you can det it, and it sounds like you are as you were planning on using it for new years, detonation as outlined by nitro-genes and franklyn is safest. If you are not in a position to move it, then I would risk the acetone method.

But really, you screwed up big time and you should not be in this situation. I would have closed this thread as it does not contribute much to chemistry, but it is in everyone's best interests that you do not hurt yourself.




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[*] posted on 27-12-2009 at 16:37


I can agree that big crystals of TATP will detonate if initiated.
I will disagree with people always claming that a big crystal automatically is more sensitive compared to a powder. It depends on which substance we are talking about and how the lattice is affacted by temperature for exampe under a phase change.

I have experience with large TATP, 3-5 gram heavy crystals, or as you call it TACP, crystals forming from a very cold acetone solution, just put them on a paper and take a long wodden rod and press them gently to a powder. Use ear protection, but no detonation will accour if they are pressed gently. OR just add hot acetone to dissolve the crystals again.



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[*] posted on 28-12-2009 at 00:34


Can you take pictures of them? Obviously you've already looked at them, I'm guessing you've already opened the box, but maybe not moved the bag inside yet. At any rate, an interesting photo opportunity for one of those dangerously interesting chemicals.

Huh, I wonder if flash photography is a bad idea?

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[*] posted on 29-12-2009 at 08:29


How incredibly stupid and irresponsible!

Making acetone peroxide is one thing (wich I think is very risky), but storing it and forgetting about it...

I have nothing more to say, hope you don't get hurt.
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[*] posted on 30-12-2009 at 18:10


Having made long term (3 year) storage tests of TATP in buried containers, periodically examined, I would say that the current form are, on the TATP scale, 'fairly unstable'. The needles are the nasty stuff.

Delibewrately made DADP manufactured in a 2g quantity by the lab partner would not make the DDT in 500mg, dry, well pressed charges. TATP had no such issues with DDT. It appears DADP is rather inferior...

DISPOSAL: Fill a well washed 'Windex' type sprayer with warm acetone and spray it all over the crystalline mass. Then either burn it off on the spot with remote ignition or somehow collect the fluid and burn it off, again ignited remotely.




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[*] posted on 12-1-2010 at 14:34


Weird thing is...they didn't detonate....
Really weird, I'm quite positive it was TATP and I put a fuse in it blackpowder in the shoebox.
And the TATP didn't detonate.
It was I think 500mg-1000mg.
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