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Author: Subject: the journal of irreproducible results presents: KCN from KOH and formamide
mario840
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[*] posted on 20-1-2010 at 10:33
the journal of irreproducible results presents: KCN from KOH and formamide


Hello

I have a question how about making HCN form formamide and P2O5 ??

Drop slowly formamide into P2O5 and this makes HCN as white smoke then bubbling gas into solution KOH in water or ethanol ?? I heard that's works well

In wikipedia says they made KCN form formamide and KOH ?? Maybe that will works ?
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Myfanwy
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[*] posted on 27-1-2010 at 07:18


you can make KCN directly from potassium hydroxide and formamide. no hydrogen cyanide fumes and you mustnt waste your phosphorus pentoxide :)

then pour the new solution into ethanol and the KCN crystalls appear.
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mario840
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[*] posted on 27-1-2010 at 07:25


thanks for reply ..... so i must have formamide and then pour solution KOH in ethanol but how much concentration % i must have, and how much formamide i need, how much KOH solution for example 100 ml formamide and 100 ml 40% KOH in ethanol ?? please tell me more about this process because it's much safer than the others ... and how about yield ??? for any information thx :)
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Myfanwy
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[*] posted on 29-1-2010 at 02:46


CH3NO + KOH -> KCN + 2H2O

For 20g KCN u need 13,8g Formamide and 17,2g KOH. Then u get 20g KCN and 11g Water.
but formamide is unfortunately not that easy to make. you can make it by ammonolysis of formate esters. lets say with ethyl formate and ammonia. send a stream of ammonia by ammonium salt and sodium hydroxide through the ester. no ammonia solution, because ethyl formate hydrolysis very fast.
with an ammonia solution i got nearly no formamide.

i think the formamide can also made by the reaction of Ammonium formate with urea.
and formic acid and an acid amide? what are u thinking guys?


i would use concentrated potassium hydroxide solution. but it will also work with dilute.

some more questions?
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mario840
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[*] posted on 29-1-2010 at 03:10


so let's close up this reaction ... i need like you said 13,8 g formamide (no problem for me easy to get pure :) ) and then i dissolved ??? 17,2 g KOH or make solution KOH in 96% ethanol ??? which one is good ??? KOH disoles in formamide easily or not???
If not disolve then i must do solution in ethanol and then should immediately KCN crystals appers or i must heat up the reaction solution ?? tell me all that and i'm done ;)
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Myfanwy
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[*] posted on 29-1-2010 at 04:26


lol where you get this stuff^^

okay i would dissolve it in 20g water and then adding the alcohol,when the reaction is done, because KOH isnt that good soluble in alcohol.
but at first try it in a test tube. i dont even know,if potassium hydroxide dissolves in formamide, but this reaction is done in the indstry, to get potassium cyanide, so im sure this will work =P

all thecrystalls will appear, when u add the alcohol. i think u dont have to heat it.
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mario840
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[*] posted on 29-1-2010 at 05:04


form the store :P:)

Hey but i have read that formamide is easily hydrolized by acids and base ??? so it's really works with KOH ??? because this really worried me
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Myfanwy
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[*] posted on 29-1-2010 at 05:14


jes we want to hydrolyze it xDD

bases form cyanide salts and acids will make hydrogen cyanide.
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mario840
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[*] posted on 29-1-2010 at 05:29


ohhhh :) that's sound great!!

tell me more about your methods of preparation of cyanides .... :)
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Myfanwy
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[*] posted on 29-1-2010 at 09:50


mh making cyanides is legal in germany.
youre right. HCN in air isnt that poisonous as many think.

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mario840
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[*] posted on 29-1-2010 at 10:30


don't be scared ... do everything easy and carefully and photos and movie will be fantastic knowlege to me how to do it in the future, as you finished experiment write did it works , how yield you got :)

@S.C. Wack .... yes but heating this to 600 C ??? i'd prefer simple adding CH3NO to P2O5 without any heat and other stuff .. of course if you heat that mixture formamide/P2O5 at the end you will get much more HCN and KCN :) so i prefer this metod or metod of Myfanwy :)
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[*] posted on 29-1-2010 at 14:52


Quote: Originally posted by Myfanwy  

CH3NO + KOH -> KCN + 2H2O

okay i would dissolve it in 20g water and then adding the alcohol,when the reaction is done, because KOH isnt that good soluble in alcohol.
but at first try it in a test tube. i dont even know,if potassium hydroxide dissolves in formamide, but this reaction is done in the indstry, to get potassium cyanide, so im sure this will work =P

all thecrystalls will appear, when u add the alcohol. i think u dont have to heat it.

:D
It will work only in your dreams.
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mario840
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[*] posted on 29-1-2010 at 23:43


@kmno4 so you telling that reaction is wrong ... and only way to get KCN from formamide is dehydration with P2O5 and then "gassing" lye ????? tell me more and don't be rude because it nothing change and just wanna know
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Myfanwy
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[*] posted on 30-1-2010 at 01:45


okay kmno4 tell me whats wrong at this reaction.
i think it must work -> indutrial method




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Myfanwy
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[*] posted on 30-1-2010 at 01:50


only saying it wont work is a little bit dumb, sry.
i need a explanation :)




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mario840
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[*] posted on 30-1-2010 at 02:00


ohhhhh but i hope you don't change your mind about experiment today ... :)
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kmno4
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[*] posted on 30-1-2010 at 02:18


Quote: Originally posted by Myfanwy  

i think it must work -> indutrial method

It is your industrial method, not working in reality.
Try to read more scientific literature than Wikipedia.
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Myfanwy
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[*] posted on 30-1-2010 at 03:16


jes i will make the experiment today. i just made the photos of the chemicals and of the glasswear.
i take 41g H3PO4, this is an massive overkill. I just need 15g.

even my chemical database says,that formamide forms cyanides with bases. hydrolysis in aqueous soltions in presence of acids or bases.




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kmno4
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[*] posted on 31-1-2010 at 04:16


Quote: Originally posted by Myfanwy  
ok i done the experiment. i made 64 pictures and movies.
i got about 10g of sodium cyanide (55,6%).

It seems to me that your NaCN is not dried (> 100 C) and yield of dry product may be even below 5 g.

Quote: Originally posted by Myfanwy  
my chemical database says,that formamide forms cyanides with bases.

Can you write from what database/book/encyclopedia/article/paper you have this information ?
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Myfanwy
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[*] posted on 31-1-2010 at 04:30


yes its not dried. but 5g are better than nothing ;)

Taoisearch it was under 0°C outside and i used 2Kg Ice to cool it.
But even with this cooling most HCN just gassed away.

If i made it again i would use an ethanolic solution of NaOH.

kmno4 i have it from a german database called "gestis".


[Edited on 31-1-2010 by Myfanwy]

[Edited on 31-1-2010 by Myfanwy]




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S.C. Wack
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[*] posted on 31-1-2010 at 07:22


There is obviously no way that NaCN is going to be produced by hydrolysis.
They obviously use NaOH to absorb the HCN.
This is obviously not the same.

Really wish y'all would raise your standards instead of bringing us down to yours.
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sad.gif posted on 6-2-2010 at 02:01
CH3NO + KOH ---> Gas


I've read at lot of sites and books, that Formamide + Potassium Hydrooxide will give Potassium Cyanide + water

CH3NO + KOH --> KCN + H2O


but i am getting = CH3NO + KOH --> GAS + Some thing

May be the out put is reacting again

KCN + H2O -> HCN + KOH

as the output gas smell like HCN

I tried to cool it and convert it to liquid HCN but failed. So i doubt if i m correct.

can some one guide me


[Edited on 6-2-2010 by ramual]
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S.C. Wack
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[*] posted on 6-2-2010 at 10:59


So we're going to let this continue then. Wow. The sheeple have been trained well, and are probably looking forward to more.
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Myfanwy
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[*] posted on 6-2-2010 at 11:29


the mixture becomes hot by its own.



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[*] posted on 6-2-2010 at 13:03


Real chemical processes need a little more to be plausible than the faint praise of "it wouldn't violate the conservation of mass."



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