Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1    3    5
Author: Subject: Detonation of erythritol tetranitrate (ETN) with heated aluminum
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
*****




Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline

Mood: Estrified

[*] posted on 22-3-2010 at 07:09


Just detonated about half a gram of ETN underground. I started with a piece of 0.5 inch OD polyethylene tubing, then used a flame to melt and seal one end. I put the ETN inside, then heated it in a water bath until it melted. Then I took two pieces of nickel/titanium wire and ran about a half inch of 35 gauge nichrome wire between them. Applying 5VDC caused the wire to glow yellow. Then I immersed the nichrome wire in some powdered aluminum and hooked up the voltage again. This had the effect of melting aluminum onto the nichrome wire. Then I melted the ETN again and carefully immersed the nichrome wire and the other two wires into it. Once the ETN solidified, I melted wax and used that to seal the top of the tube. Then I got some speaker wire and hooked it up to the two NiTi wires, then ran it about 20 feet away. The first time, there was a bad connection so I wired everything up again. The second time, I touched the wires to a 9V battery, and I heard a deep "boom" and the dirt above where I buried the ETN lifted up about half an inch and fell back down. I dug it up and found the half of the polyethylene tube that didn't have ETN in it. All around it were these tiny white specks too. At first I thought they were undetonated ETN pieces, but on closer examination they appeared to be polyethylene.

The way I detonated it was probably not the most efficient, and I don't think the detonation used all the ETN, but it did certainly appear to detonate. I think maybe the aluminum fused to the nichrome wire and made it more conductive. This seems like it'd result in a weaker detonation. I think next time I'll try mixing Al powder with the ETN directly, then using plain, uncoated nichrome wire to provide the heat.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
chief
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 630
Registered: 19-7-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 22-3-2010 at 13:18


Are you sure the Al melted onto the Ni/Cr=wire ? Usually the oxide-layer prevents this ...; on the other hand there exist an reistivity-alloy made from Ni and Al ...

The oxide layer of Al however is no big deal for HCl, so maybe if chlorine would get into the mixture ...
==> What about mixing ETN wih Al-Powder and a Chlorate ? (dangerous dangerous ...)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
*****




Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline

Mood: Estrified

[*] posted on 23-3-2010 at 06:10


Quote: Originally posted by chief  
Are you sure the Al melted onto the Ni/Cr=wire ? Usually the oxide-layer prevents this ...; on the other hand there exist an reistivity-alloy made from Ni and Al ...

The oxide layer of Al however is no big deal for HCl, so maybe if chlorine would get into the mixture ...
==> What about mixing ETN wih Al-Powder and a Chlorate ? (dangerous dangerous ...)

Yeah, the surface of the wire was all thick and lumpy, and the same color as the Al powder, although in retrospect there probably wasn't an electrical connection between them. Mixing ETN with an oxidizer does sound pretty dangerous, although I haven't used chlorates to know how reactive they are. What I do have is potassium permanganate, and I know I sure wouldn't want to mix that with melted ETN. I was thinking of trying to use a Al/KMnO4 based flash powder to set off the ETN, but I suspect that wouldn't be very stable and I'm not interested in learning it the hard way. Besides, setting off ETN with flash powder has already been done many times. I guess the next step is seeing if an Al-ETN mixture will detonate from the heat of a nichrome wire. The reaction between Al and ETN doesn't start until ETN is boiling, so as long as a water bath is used to melt ETN, doing this doesn't seem to have a significant detonation risk.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Forumdude
Harmless
*




Posts: 43
Registered: 6-2-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-3-2013 at 20:14
ETN Detonation, Everyone should take a look at this.


So I sucsessfully nitrated and recrystalized ETN and I order these nice little EBW type things, they are a thin piece of metal soldered to two pieces of copper wire and then sealed with a piece of tubing

The nice tubing is from a 9volt battery, I took it apart and cleaned out one of the tubes from the inside of it.

I first loosley packed the clear tubing with ETN then inside the tube it was packed with a flashpowder then a packed layer of ETN that was packed using a arbour press to around 1500psi.

I then crimped the EBW or the heating element inside the tube.

The heating element was then powered by many disposable camera capacitors and a circuit board from one.

You can buy the heating elememts at http://martinezspecialtiesinc.com/

They ar dirt cheap

rsz_1photo_2.jpg - 70kBrsz_11photo.jpg - 73kBrsz_photo_1.jpg - 78kB
View user's profile View All Posts By User
dangerous amateur
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 144
Registered: 8-7-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-3-2013 at 04:20


If it works like an EBW, whats the flash for?

I do not think this design will be reliable. I played around with ETN a lot and tested many ETN-only caps, but there where never 100% reliable, what is extremely annoying.

I've given up. Better protect yourself properly and use double salts etc.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Ral123
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-3-2013 at 05:41


Video or it didn't happen :P Isn't the case from 1.5v AAA battery?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Forumdude
Harmless
*




Posts: 43
Registered: 6-2-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-3-2013 at 08:20


Hahaha I will post a video tonight , I set 6 of them off and all but one worked. The flash? And the casing is from inside a 9volt there is many little AAA size battery's , I suppose a AAA would also work fine. Those EBW would probably work with primary's also just on a lower voltage , they glow red when they are put on a lower voltage.

[Edited on 19-3-2013 by Forumdude]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
dangerous amateur
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 144
Registered: 8-7-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-3-2013 at 08:38


This is NOT an EBW.

Quote:

I set 6 of them off and all but one worked


Yeah, they made nice bangs. But proper DDT?
I doubt it.

View user's profile View All Posts By User
Forumdude
Harmless
*




Posts: 43
Registered: 6-2-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-3-2013 at 10:10


Yeah a nice bang. Have you achieved Def to det on any of your ETN only caps? It's not a EBW , there is a little Element that gets instantly red hot.

[Edited on 19-3-2013 by Forumdude]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 19-3-2013 at 19:55


lets see some controled tests agianst witness plates. It seems your flirting with the ETN "NPED" idea. Search, it has been done to death. IIRC, thermal shock, and not direct ignition is the best way. else, to much material deflagrates. Good luck, and be safe.

Try a small tube with pressed or casted ETN, of minimal diameter, with a piece of good BP fuse completely covered in a few layers Al foil imbedded in it. Ensure that no flame or spark can directly contact the ETN. just the rapid heating from the foil.
(Holmes?, lol)




U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Ral123
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-3-2013 at 22:18


I didn't know that ETN goes high order from thermal shock. I though it deflagrates and we can only hope for it to ddt.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 20-3-2013 at 06:08


It is well known and recorded that small quantities of ETN will readily undergo detonation when confined in Al foil and strongly heated. Read the thread, "ETN: Almost killed myself" for an example of a few mgs detonating in a glass test tube, to devastating effect, from rapid thermal shock.



U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Ral123
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 20-3-2013 at 08:10


And how efficient this detonation is and how reliable/predictable? Primarys are reliable to initiate high order certain secondaries. Many gun powders are NG/NC and would also explode, but not detonate under such heating.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 20-3-2013 at 10:28


I never claimed that it is more reliable or "better" than using the time tested standard of a primary explosive induced "train" for initiation of insensitive secondary and tertiary explosives. Only that ETN readily undergoes full detonation when small amount, confined in foil, is rapidly heated. I, myself, am not a fan of "NPEDs," but they have been researched and tested to death, both in the industrial, military, and hobbiest settings. A few well worded searches should garner more information than you would ever need on the subject.



U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Forumdude
Harmless
*




Posts: 43
Registered: 6-2-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 20-3-2013 at 16:28


Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
lets see some controled tests agianst witness plates. It seems your flirting with the ETN "NPED" idea. Search, it has been done to death. IIRC, thermal shock, and not direct ignition is the best way. else, to much material deflagrates. Good luck, and be safe.

Try a small tube with pressed or casted ETN, of minimal diameter, with a piece of good BP fuse completely covered in a few layers Al foil imbedded in it. Ensure that no flame or spark can directly contact the ETN. just the rapid heating from the foil.
(Holmes?, lol)


Holmes? What?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 20-3-2013 at 19:00


Nevermind. There once was a character in a mostly fiction tale around these parts, who was near obsessed with ETN thermal shock caps, NPEDs, etc, among other, ummm, eccentric intrests and quirks. It was just a wierd joke on my part, to see this come up agian.
see my sig.
No shots at you, at all intended. Im just a bit odd.




U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Kalium
Harmless
*




Posts: 33
Registered: 21-6-2012
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 20-3-2013 at 19:08


Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
Nevermind. There once was a character in a mostly fiction tale around these parts, who was near obsessed with ETN thermal shock caps, NPEDs, etc, among other, ummm, eccentric intrests and quirks. It was just a wierd joke on my part, to see this come up agian.
see my sig.
No shots at you, at all intended. Im just a bit odd.

Oh, he's still around. Just not actively posting.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
dangerous amateur
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 144
Registered: 8-7-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 21-3-2013 at 01:22


If someone likes to develop such things for fun, why not?

I think it is doable, my caps, or rather little pipe b!mbs worked fine. I compared them with double salt/etn caps on steel plates and also with small ammonal charges and they worked fine.

However, I did not do enough tests to be 100% sure.

If you do an laborious experiment with energetic material and it is ruined because the cap did not work not properly (but maybe properly enough to f!ck up your work) you will see that homemade NEPDs are not worth the effort.

Invest the same effort in proper DS or LA caps and you'll be pleased.

[Edited on 21-3-2013 by dangerous amateur]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Hennig Brand
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1284
Registered: 7-6-2009
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 3-6-2013 at 04:55


The small metal tubes from the 9 volt battery are actually AAAA (quadruple A) batteries, not AAA (triple A) batteries. This size is not nearly as common as the AA and AAA types, being used for certain laser pointers and a couple of other applications. A bank of them welded together is commonly found in 9V batteries though as we have seen.

From reading on these forums the last few years a little primary explosive pressed on top would seem to be much more reliable than the no primary options with ETN.

[Edited on 3-6-2013 by Hennig Brand]




"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Antiswat
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1624
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline

Mood: dangerously practical

[*] posted on 3-6-2013 at 06:34


i think if you want it to be more reliable you should use a slowflash or star composition or... rocket fuel as in rocket candy, using slow burning mixtures will shockheat the etn and thus making a small delay from you flick the button till it will go off
you can also try with copper oxide as it generates extreme amounts of heat in small amounts (sensitize it somehow?) as i experienced CuO + MgAl or GD Al (1-3┬Ám) isnt really sensitive liuke everybody claims it is
you could make a 1:1 KMnO4 CuO oxidizer and mix with MgAl perhaps? that would work very well im sure
problem with flash initiation is that you just want it to have a container that can hold in the pressure until its supposed to go off all at once as flashpowder is alot less brisant than most primary HE's




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Varmint
National Hazard
****




Posts: 264
Registered: 30-5-2013
Location: Near Atlanta, GA
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-6-2013 at 03:44


Assuming that cell casing is from a dry cell 9V, the case is zinc, and there is no way I'd use zinc in any initiator.

DAS
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Krakermanworks
Harmless
*




Posts: 9
Registered: 6-9-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 01:51
ETN detonation without a primer


Hi I've heard etn can be detonated with just al foil, and rcandy (60:40 kno3:sugar) has anyone had success with this or other similar methods of detonating etn, I don't want to use primers as the only primary's I can synthesis are hmtd/tatp wich I'd rather not use.

[Edited on 16-1-2014 by Krakermanworks]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fuse
Harmless
*




Posts: 16
Registered: 25-2-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 02:27


Yes, in past I used the procedure in the picture

ETN CAP resized.JPG - 50kB
View user's profile View All Posts By User
underground
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 601
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 02:49


What is that green one think like string ? visco fuse ?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
markx
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 643
Registered: 7-8-2003
Location: Northern kingdom
Member Is Offline

Mood: Very Jolly

[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 03:00


It may work, but I have found it excruciatingly unreliable.....I have not tried the exact method on the picture but similar setups:
100-200mg ETN rolled up in Al foil, surrounded by a pyrotechnic mass (meal powder bound by rubber cement)
100-200mg ETN with flash charge on top in direct contact/separated by foil
100-200mg ETN hermetically sealed in capacitor casing (Al cup) surrounded by pyrotechnic mass

Results were around 2-4 times out of 10.....mostly deflagration or partial detonation. I did not try the direct addition of Al powder though, it might hold the key to a more reliable initiation.




Exact science is a figment of imagination.......
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1    3    5

  Go To Top