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Author: Subject: Why was Anders Hoveland banned?
peach
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[*] posted on 25-7-2010 at 08:43


I eat meat, despite being bitched at for an entire year I spent living with a hardcore vegan. Cooking meat, with the door closed, windows open and fan on would result in "Awwwww, it stinks of death in here! It's all over my clothes" being shouted from upstairs.

He once complained about the smell before he realized I was only boiling a pan of water; that my pasta was about to go in.

But I've seen more slaughter videos than most PETA members. There are some that are a lot nicer and others that are a lot worse.

I only posted them as I suspect a good number of meat eaters who shout about their opinions haven't actually watched these kinds of videos and seen how it is for a large percentage of the mass processed meat. If you can watch all those and still eat it, good. If you can work there and eat it, even better.

But ranting about vegans and vegetarians when your knowledge of the process extends to what gets put on TV is wrong, because even the more normal stuff (tamer than those videos, which aren't the worst) is considered too graphic for late night, warning equipped TV.

A significant quantity of the meat can't be stunned prior to bleeding for religious reasons. It's very often hung up while it's alive and in excessive, needless pain. The stunners routinely don't work properly or the animal is left too long before bleeding, allowing it to wake up.

The big commercial processors will do thousands or tens of thousands of animals per day. There isn't the time for a flowery, peaceful .308 through the head in the countryside. It needs churning through for the cheapest price possible, which means the conditions fall drastically short of how most people imagine it is.

I can now buy chicken that is almost a majority of injected water, to keep it succulent. And disease is rampant within the commercial farms. The chicken houses will have tens of thousands in each, and hundreds are killed because they fall down under the conditions and may become disease carriers or low yielders; the conditions are the absolute minimum required (minimum light / feed / heat / water / space). If sunlight enters the house in a none controlled manner, the battery chickens go mental and attack each other, so it has to be kept dim to keep them permanently sleepy. The litter can't be changed during the growth cycle, so it's saturated with urine and stinks of ammonia, to the extent that the birds end up with ammonia burns on their legs and skin.

I'm not an organic nut, but animals do need to be allowed to run around outside if only to make them taste better. 17 of them in a cage I wouldn't keep a pet rabbit in is too much. They don't need pampering, very simple things massively improve their apparent enjoyment of life, like hanging CD's from the roof of the house, for them to peck at and play with.

I eat meat, but I also get angry when I see people putting their half eaten Micky Dee's in the bin.

[Edited on 25-7-2010 by peach]




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[*] posted on 25-7-2010 at 16:46


Agreed with the Micky Dee's in the bin. Was that cow's life worth nothing?
But perhaps it's Micky dee's we should complain about, for making crap with once-living food.
Even their lettuce was once alive and has been turned into sludge (well, sometimes).

Vegetable rights! :P




“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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[*] posted on 25-7-2010 at 17:06


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Was that cow's life worth nothing?


No, not really when you look at it the way mother nature intended. We have breed an over abundance of cows. Nature makes them go away however it sees fit. You, me, the cow, none of that shit matters. People should worry more about how to take care of other people before worrying about the cow because we havn't even gotten that right yet.





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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 01:15


This is true, but the thrown away cow was only alive for food in the first place.



“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 02:11


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
People should worry more about how to take care of other people before worrying about the cow because we havn't even gotten that right yet.


Yep, that's something I noticed about my vegan 'friend'. He'd be a complete and utter prick to everyone, was massively spoilled by his family and government grants and had huge amounts of time to go searching for or prepare vegan food. He annoyed people so much with his nasty attitude, he literally had no one who wanted to be around him. There'd be constant awkward silences when people even mentioned him. He'd treat animals with more care than he'd treat people.

A funny facette about vegans is they deem it okay to retain, use and wear goods made from leather bought before 'the conversion' or that are donated afterwards, such as shoes.

I once pointed out, after seeing an RSPCA advert about a sad talking horse, that those adverts shouldn't be on TV until we no longer need RSPCC adverts. As the children are far more intelligent, and abused children will grow up to cost society exponentially more once their thoughts and feelings are set. He didn't agree with that.

The RSPCC ads have been taken off the air at times for suggesting the reality of what some children have to deal with, like sexual abuse, using actors and a few words.

Meanwhile, they use the voices of kids for sad puppies who want donations.

Absolutely rediculous, it really upsets me.

My mum used to teach in a primary school. I'd constantly be in with her to help, particularly on days out, and loved being around the kids. And then I'd look around at them, and I and the staff didn't just suspect but knew some of them were being abused, some of them sexually; because there'd be problems with social services and the police. This was a classy, high ratings, church based school also, not one of the really bad ones. And the kids were way below their teens, still wetting themselves and getting excited about being given a sticker. I understand why humans (who are animals themselves) find the innocence of children attractive, but the current society and how humans interact, behave and so on means that we don't belong with the animals anymore.

With regards to vegetable rights, here's Timothy McVeigh answering a letter a PETA member sent him;

Quote:
Truth is, I understand your cause - I've seen slaughter houses myself - but I still believe in reasonable taking and eating of game (as an outdoorsman and hunter)... I cannot sustain a prolonged intellectual debate on the subject as my time is short, but I'd suggest hitting Ted Kaczynski up for his opinions on the subject. [...] Where do you draw the line and what standard is used to define that line? Those that are in it for the health benefits accept poultry and fish as edible. Where do those opposed to suffering stand? (Ever see a fish struggling out of water?) What about grubs/worms/etc.? And finally, plants are alive too, they react to stimuli (including pain); have circulation systems, etc. So how about them?"




^^^Timmy don't give a fk what he's slaughterin'^^^

By a strange twist of fate, he was being executed as I sat in an English exam and one of the options was, "Write about the pressures on young people today".

I started;

"As I sit in this exam today, Timothy McVeigh is being executed..."

Zero revision, A*

[Edited on 26-7-2010 by peach]




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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 05:37


Yes and I know someone from this and that minority who is a total prick. Blah blah blah. This thread is so full of non sequitur and false dichotomy, it's a shame for a board with the word "science" in the name. :P
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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 06:11


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This thread is so full of non sequitur and false dichotomy
Hey put your wiki-thesaurus away! Don't worry turd next time you can use the word "illogical" and we'll still think you're smart.

Quote:
it's a shame for a board with the word "science" in the name. :P
Peach was just agreeing with Sedit's view that people should learn to treat other people respectfully before worrying about cows. It's not like he was putting together a report with official statistics on "vegans that are assholes" and submitting the findings to a scientific journal. Although I must say I'd be very interested in such a report.
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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 06:53


I wasn't commenting on peach's post in special, just on the mass of stereotypical blah-blah we get presented here. You know those aggressive vegans who want to convert everybody else and care about the cows but not their fellow men and blah and blah and blah. Ironically, the only aggressive people in this thread are from the "other camp", with all their untenable horror stories of the malnourished vegans/vegetarians. Maybe some kind of remorse after all?

And I meant exactly those two expressions. I don't see why you get so smug about it. Anyway, this starts to bore me to death, so you can now all proceed to pat your self on the back.

Have a nice day. :)
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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 07:25


Actually, this guy and his friend had a discussion in private about 'converting me', if that helps your statistics at all.

I don't recall making any sweeping statements about vegans or vegetarians, and I'm not just nitpicking to save my own intertitz reputation. I used to talk to him a lot about it, like how honey shouldn't beeeeeee in the vegan handbooks he had.

I keep bees. I can tell you for sure, they have a far, far, far happier life living in my hives, where I protect them from attack and let them roam around out in nature. I take honey from them, but I also feed them, keep the hive destroying mites out, give them a huge, easy to build home to live in, never squash one (and there can be hundreds of thousands in a hive) and they'll instictively produce a ton of the stuff as surplus without me having to do anything other than stack more space on top of their hive.

It's not like keeping cows pregnant for the milk. The bees do it automatically. And they'll make so much honey, and multiply to such a huge percentage, the queen will routinely leave the hive after a few years and call half the hive away with her, to find more space to keep all the stuff!

It's that kind of thing that bothers me about vegans. They assume that it's wrong or unfairly exploiting them because I'm gaining something from them (after putting a lot in and them producing it as surplus as part of their nature without my intervention).

I discuss this topic a lot on line. I've seen all the PETA videos and, as I say, probably a lot more of the nasty videos than their members have. I asked my vegan friend why so much of PETA's material is recycled and he had a fit on me. And these are people who are willing to physically terrorize the families of people delivering fuel to animal experimentation facilities. But won't go around all the slaughter houses with a camera to prove their point.

The reality (that they want to expound) is, their latest video is re-edited footage from their first videos. Even worse, in one they show an image of a cow that they link to cancer, then to another problem in their newest video; using identical footage.

They use hurrendously poor scientific arguements that boarder on just complete rubbish. Like "meat makes you fat". That's biochemically incorrect, as it requires more energy to digest than carbohydrate and so is economically, energetically, less worthwhile, as they also use in their arguments. They exclusively use images of older black guys in white coats in labs, with no reference to their scientific knowledge or qualification, little girls and hot legal girls in their latest video.

I know better than most people how horrible the process is. But resorting to that is like resorting to telling people meth is full of mercury and paintstripper, rather than just telling them the reality of how it ends up for meth addicts; which is far worse and perfectly realistic.

Show us the endless videos of mass torture, stunners not working, abuse and I think a lot more people would care. Fight the BBC, ITV and Channel 4 (or the US versions) and say you want to put it on TV. When they decline, contact the papers saying they all refused to show what you filmed in the slaughter houses and only that.

For as long as PETA continues with the emotional imagery, wording and manipulation, it'll never be taken seriously. Present the facts from a wide, up to date sample and nothing else.

I know the vast majority of meat eaters currently live in willful ignorance of how it works and won't watch even the tame videos. But the PETA tactics are like the religious fanatics'; they're not intelligently targeted and are ineffective. It's like the terrorists thinking bombing an underground station will make us believe in Islam. There are countless mountains of evidence to show how that method works in entirely the opposite direction, making people more convinced of their own opinions. Islamic terrorists do have a point to make, we are loosing the very base values to earn quick money via the media, to the detriment of society. But hurting people isn't the way to make that clear, and it certainly isn't effective.

I do think a lot of vegetarian and vegan food can be as tasty and nutritionally worthwhile as meat based food, or more so; the vegan I lived with could cook an amazing past sauce, and his cookbooks gave me a really tasty lasagna. Vegan burgers with some ketchup on them taste are as nice or better than normal burgers. I 100% agree that the majority of people don't eat enough fruit and veg. I also think vegetarian / vegan food is vastly overpriced. And I do think it requires more effort and more work to correctly balance it nutritionally. A wholesale vegetarian / vegan outlet with scientifically balanced, meat price competitive outputs would be good, and should be achievable as Soya and Myco protein are inherently cheaper to produce.

If meat is orders of magnitude more expensive to produce in terms of energy, why is it the same price or cheaper than the vegetarian / vegan burgers? Why aren't they 10p, and not £2.50?

I have spent a very long time considering these questions and I do care and may give up diary and meat eventually, but I'm not decided. Simple.

Better that than some play along rebel chump who jumps on the bandwagon because something initially upsets them. Those same people have been the long standing retarding factor of science. Penicillin = witch, animal testing = useless results.

The animal brain (ours included) is biochemically tuned and neurologically structured to seek out norms. The most revolutionary science is often the science that upsets the most people, because it doesn't fit into those boundaries.

Quote:
The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible.
Arthur C. Clarke

All life deserves respect for what it feels or may become. Animals feel pain, but plants respond to negative stimuli, as Timmy points out. The remaining factor is what it may become. We've already become that. And anything that can react (chemically or in a nuclear nature) may become that in time, as we formed from lightning in the atmosphere.

The line for vegans is the eyes and the sounds of an animal. In a way, making it more hypertical than a meat eater's point of view, as it says "so long as it doesn't complain, it's okay". It's like hitting mentally ill people and saying it's okay because they can't think very well and can't say anything about it.

If a vegan is going to lecture me on the ethics of life, I hope they're eating synthetically produced carbohydrates, proteins, vitamins, fats and minerals. All of which are currently available.

They don't.

[Edited on 26-7-2010 by peach]




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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 07:44


In all honesty turd you are the only one being aggressive and hostile in this thread for the most part. Others are expressive facts and opinions while your basicly flipping them off.

Yes I agree there is alot of sterotyping but these sterotypes do not form themselfs. Even if you do not fit he sterotype more often then not many do in most sterotyping cases.

As for my commnent that lead to this,
Quote:
You know those aggressive vegans who want to convert everybody else and care about the cows but not their fellow men and blah and blah and blah.


I dont say its jut vegans I say it dont matter at all. We don't care about or fellow man at all. Non of us show the respect thats really needed to them even though 10-100 thousand years(perhaps more if we are lucky) from now neither the cows species or our own are going to be here and yet im still pissed that my neighbors dog shit on my lawn and would like to pick it up and smear it all over the windsheild of his car.

Can you not think of a certine sterotype you know of which you judge on first sight even though you haven't really met them yet such as a slanty eyed china man or the scary black guy that dont take care of his kids, What if a flakey gay came up and told you he like your pants, would yo think hes hitting on you?

I know which one it is. The owner of the 7-11 down the street with the turbin and the dot. Hes on everyones radar right now because humans are just stupid creatures that are babys with swollen heads in the evolutionary sence.

With the forms of hostility that are shown over something as stupid as who wants meat and who don't, we don't stand a chance to last. My bias stands because I have never seen a cop throw blood on a PETA member yet they love to chuck buckets of blood and urin at the cops. Is this another sterotype? Yup but its there because it happens to often.





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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 08:07


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with all their untenable horror stories of the malnourished vegans/vegetarians.


The only one slagging on the vegetarians is Sedit. As far as I can tell everyone else is commenting on a vegan diet.

I recommend http://www.lierrekeith.com/vegmyth.htm - written by an ex-vegan. And not someone who fell away from it because it was inconvenient or difficult or unpopular; she just realized it was unnatural, unhealthy and ultimately did not address the problems of human coexistence with other life.
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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 08:14


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I know the vast majority of meat eaters currently live in willful ignorance of how it works and won't watch even the tame videos.
I don't consider myself ignorant. I just don't want to lose my appetite by watching gory films while eating a big pile of ground beef. Do vegans watch close-up videos of Ted Nugent having a bowel movement when they eat mushrooms?

Quote:
even though 10-100 thousand years(perhaps more if we are lucky) from now neither the cows species or our own are going to be here
Hopefully in 100,000 years all the vegans will have evolved into deer hybrids that we can hunt to sustain us through Armageddon.
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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 08:24


Ironically, given that this is now about treating other forms of life with the same respect as we treat ourselves, I am coming to the opinion that there are humans alive who are effectively 'mutants' with regards to the others. This is continually displayed in lab results from other forms of life and is the driving force of evolution.

The driving force behind western society now is that science can answer everything, universal fairness is correct and the evolution is fact. Yet we also entirely disregard the primary fact of evolution, that it produces failures and superiors.

We're not throwing shit at each other anymore because one of us picked up a rock. And his son made an iPhone.

I would like to join forces with the vegans, in an ideal world, and break away from here.

There are species alive that'll survive irradiation orders of magnitude more than is needed to kill a human. There are prostitutes in Africa who are immune to AIDS. But we're all equal, they say.

I don't think I'm superior to other humans, but I'm certainly not blending in very well with them.

My personal belief is that it won't be too long before we find a way to interface at a cell by cell level with organic neurons. See; magneto encephalography. A holographic CD can already store 10 minutes plus of uncompressed spinal cord data, assuming each neuron is running at it's full bandwidth for it's entire duration.

Given the way human interpret data, compressing out the mundane, that is highly unlikely; see, MP3 (highly compressed, universally accepted as the best format). The fastest transistors can now compute at hundreds of GHz, whilst a synapse can manage ~1kHz. The reason computers haven't turned into sentient beings is that isn't what we've designed them to do so. We've made them to compute and do things we can't do, the exact opposite. And now they've vastly exceeded our biochemical methods. The millitary is already producing fuzzy logic networks of drones that will change their modes of flights as the parameters vary, in flight, on their own. I know the people writing the code for it.

It's on the way.

[Edited on 26-7-2010 by peach]




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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 08:24


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The only one slagging on the vegetarians is Sedit. As far as I can tell everyone else is commenting on a vegan diet.


Now, now this is simply not true, I hate everyone equally.

My comments where mearly about the nutritional defects vegans face as well and the unpracticality of the whole idea that eating meat is not good. There is belief that the ability to use fire and cook meat is what allowed the human brain to grow to the size it has today by supplying it with easy to break down protiens it could have not gotten thru other means. I find it odd that we have evolved thru eating meat yet propaganda has convinced many its bad for you.





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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 08:26


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  

Now, now this is simply not true, I hate everyone equally.


"THERE IS NO RACIAL BIGOTRY HERE. I DO NOT LOOK DOWN ON NIGGERS, KIKES, WOPS OR GREASERS! HERE, YOU ARE ALL EQUALLY WORTHLESS!"




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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 09:49


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
In all honesty turd you are the only one being aggressive and hostile in this thread for the most part.

I think you mistake ennui for aggressiveness. Aggressive would be telling you what to eat and why, which I didn't. Seriously, every word I type seems like a complete waste of energy since everybody is only interested in reinforcing their stereotypes. It's like trying to argue with old ladies who complain about those foreigners. Pointless. There's 2 million PETA members (probably most of them not even vegetarians), yet in India alone there is nearly half a billion vegeterians, and you keep acting as if these were the same thing. What's the point about discussing PETA, when there is no PETA member around? Blah, we're so good, they're so bad - that's what it is. BTW: Yes, I have my own stereotypes. I think that Christianity is a dangerous doomsday cult, but let's please not go into that.

Quote:
Others are expressive facts and opinions while your basicly flipping them off.

Oh really? You started the discussion by saying that vegetarians (or did you mean vegans?) are malnourished. I posted a paper from the AMA (which is not an organization of vegetarians) showing this not to be true. Sure there are vegetarians with eating disorder but I would bet a crate of beer that the ratio is not higher than in the group of non-vegetarians. I'm quite sure that the opposite is true.

Last post in this thread, nothing to say anymore. Besides: Whimsy sucks donkey ass. :P
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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 10:10


I don't distinquish between the two. Vegan to me has always ment vegitarian and visa versa.

I act as though PETA and Vegans are the same because without PETAs scare tactics many people would have never become vegitarians. I do not discriminate against vergitarians but I honestly hate PETA.


Horrible parent but still malnutritioned.
http://www.hugesettlements.com/Personal-Injury/3098.html
Quote:
They fed her with herbal teas, fruit juices, soy drinks and flax seed oil instead of breast milk. Consequently the baby weighed only 10 pounds when she was 15 months. She had no teeth, a swollen abdomen and she was not able to sit or talk.

The baby was diagnosed with severe malnutrition and rickets. Doctors considered it a terrible case of neglect. Nevertheless, the parents claimed that they thought the diet was the best for the girl. Right now they are both on a trial that will lead them to 25 years in jail.


Do you disagree that the non feeding of brest milk is right because this just sounds insain to a cult like degree. Yes they are horrible parents an I think ithas alotmore to do with them then the veganism but non the lest there thought process is out of wack and they thought what they where doing was right the whole time there baby withered away.

I only solidly argue that we are not smarter then mother nature and these people think they are as do vegitarians as does anyone who crys fowl(get it) over animal rights. We are just a tool of nature not above it. If theres an adversion to meat there may be a reason for it in your body that comes out as a dislike such as how I can't stand sugar. But to not drink breast milk because it comes from an animal is nuts.

PS: Whimsy rocks!!! I get bord being serious all the time.



[Edited on 26-7-2010 by Sedit]





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[*] posted on 26-7-2010 at 11:58


I see that this thread long ago ceased to discuss Anders Hoveland.
For what it's worth (not much), I basically agree with turd.




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