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mewrox99
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[*] posted on 17-8-2010 at 01:22


While the discussion of ammunition is interesting, this thread is meant for Exotic Oxidizers.

What sort of oxidizers have people done sugar burns with other than nitrates, chlorates, perchlorates




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[*] posted on 17-8-2010 at 02:53


With permanganate you also can do sugar burns. Ignition can be done by dripping in a single drop of concentrated H2SO4.



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[*] posted on 17-8-2010 at 07:02


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
With permanganate you also can do sugar burns. Ignition can be done by dripping in a single drop of concentrated H2SO4.



K permanganate is not all that exotic here are being several
legit ones from my DB.

Photoflash
Stnd Formulary 1899, Scientific American Cyclopedia
Magnesium 40%
Potassium/permanganate 40
Barium/peroxide 20

Salute
Davis pg105
Potassium/permanganate 3 pts
Aluminum 2

Igniter
PATR-2700 G27
Potassium/permanganate 60%
Zinc 60%
Does not add to 100%

Igniter
PATR2700 I10
Potassium/permanganate 54.9%
Iron powder 45.1

Starter Berger's Mixture 2
Prentiss
Iron powder "reduced" 46.6%
Potassium/permanganate 53.4


For more exotic one I commend the somewhat dated by still
useful:—

Lawless and Smith
Inorganic High Energy Oxidizers : Synthesis, Structure, and Properties
303 Pages
Marcel Dekker 1968

Then there is always the standard K perm - glycerin reaction.

A variation upon:—

USP 5421835
Blake W Harding
6 June 1995
Spontaneously Ignitable fire starting composition.


The liquid fuel component includes glycerin, 50% by weight, isopropyl alcohol,
41% by weight, and methanol, 9% by weight. The liquid fuel component is stored
in a first storage container which can be a 1 ounce bottle. The solid oxidant
component includes powdered potassium permanganate. The powdered
potassium permanganate is stored in a second storage container which can be a
1 ounce bottle.

In use, a capful of the powdered potassium permanganate in Example 1 is
removed from the second storage container and placed on dry, burnable, solid
fuel material such as paper, twigs, grass, kindling, etc. to form a blend of solid
fuel and solid oxidant. Then, 20 drops of the liquid fuel component in Example 1
are dispensed from the first storage container onto the blend of the solid fuel and
solid oxidant. After a wait of from 20-60 seconds, the materials spontaneously
burst into flame. It is clear that, by using the invention, a can be started
without the use of a match.

The quantity of the liquid fuel material in the first storage container (capacity of
1 ounce) and the quantity of the solid oxidant in the second storage container
(capacity of 1 ounce) are sufficient for starting approximately 20 camp fires.

In accordance with another aspect of the present invention, a method is
provided for starting a fire, wherein the method includes the steps of: obtaining a
quantity of a solid fuel material; adding a quantity of a powdered solid oxidant
material to the solid fuel material to obtain a blend of solid fuel material and solid
oxidant; adding a quantity of a liquid fuel material to the blend of solid fuel
material and solid oxidant; and waiting for a fire to spontaneously burst into
flame.

With respect to the above description, it should be realized that the optimum
relationships for the component parts of the invention include variations in
proportions and ingredients that are deemed readily apparent and obvious to
those skilled in the art, and therefore, all relationships equivalent to those
described in the specification are intended to be encompassed only by the scope
of appended claims.

-----
I have not yet tried this out. And therefore am unable to warn of any dangers
in using this invention. /djh/

Perhaps this :—

Oscar Guttmann
The Manufacture of Explosives
New York McMillan and Co. 1895

6. OTHER KINDS OF SMOKELESS POWDERS.

(b) KALLIWODA VON FALKENSTEIN POWDER**.

A peculiar powder has been patented [where? when?] by Joseph
Kalliwoda von Falkenstein, of Vinkovee (Croatia). He puts 2 to 4
parts of finely divided cellulose into a solution of 1 part of
potassium permanganate in 10 parts of water, after having cooled
the solution to about 12o or 14o C. In this way amorphous
cellulose is formed mixed with manganese di oxide, which
precipitates as a brown mass. The product has an alkaline
reaction, and is washed until neutral, then mixed with 1 part of
nitric acid of 1 3 specific gravity, and allowed to stand for 12
hours. After this the mixture is heated in a water bath to 70' C.
until all manganese di oxide is converted into manganese nitrate,
and the amorphous cellulose separated as a white precipitate


This cellulose is formed into a cake by pressing, then pulped and
washed, and then again pressed and rubbed through sieves and
dried. The horn like cellulose formed after drying is then ground
into a fine powder. This is then nitrated with an acid mixture
consisting of 1.5 to 2.1 parts of nitric acid of 1.40 to 1.55 specific
gravity, and 4.5 to 6.3 parts of sulphuric acid of 1.85 specific
gravity. The nitration is done with continuous stirring at between
5o and 8o C., and the temperature must on no account rise above
30o C. The nitration is finished in from 48 to 72 hours. After
separating the acid mixture, the nitro¬cellulose is washed and
allowed to stand in a solution of from 1 to 2 parts of potassium
permanganate in 10 parts of cold water, for 10 to 12 hours with
frequent stirring. Then nitric acid up to 1 part of the weight of
potassium permanganate is added, and the whole again allowed
to rest for 6 hours, after which it is again heated on a water bath
to 70o C., until the development of gases ceases. Nitric acid of
1.45 specific gravity is again added, and the mixture once more
heated in the water bath to between 70o and 80o C., until all
manganese di oxide is converted into nitrate, and then the nitro
cellulose is washed first in hot and then in cold water, and finely
ground. To this from 1 to 3 parts of gum tragacanth are added,
and the whole worked up into a thick paste in a stamp mill, after
which the mass is pulverized between rolls and the grains sifted,
to be finally glazed in a drum.

The real idea of the whole is not at all clear, and at any rate the
process is so complicated that carrying it out on a large scale
cannot be thought of. [Amen]

--------------------
**Not in Marshall, Cundill or Beibe.


New or Improved Apparatus for the Production of Ozone by Means
of Phosphorus.

C.R. Poulson
Horsens, Denmark
English Patent 14,862, August 17, 1892

The phosphors is held in a glass cup fixed at the end of glass rod
and placed in a 10 per cent. solution of sulphuric acid, which is
contained in a wide-mouth bottle provided with a glass cap,
through which the free end of the glass rod projects. A perforated
glass or porcelain plate is fixed below the neck of the bottle,
though which the ozone escapes, whilst the phosphorus acid
formed simultaneously is kept back. The bottle is filled to about
one-half its volume with the dilute acid, to which a little potassium
permanganate is added to oxidise the phosphorus acid. The
apparatus is designed for inhaling the ozone in cases of
tuberculosis and other diseases of the chest.

In: The Journal of the Society of Chemical Industry 3(12) 289
March 31, 1893


Dr. Ellern in his first book (bet you didn't know there are two!)
Modern Pyrotechnics, 1961. Note that potassium permanganate
will react not only with glycerin, but also with:

ethylene glycol
erythritol
mannitol
methyglycol
monochlorohydrine
triethanolamine
acetaldehyde
benzaldehyde

Original reference:
H. Rathsburg and H Gawlick. Chem Ztg., 65, 426-7, (1941).


djh
----
At a Scottish wedding the bridegroom, as was
customary at a wedding breakfast, arose to
respond to the toast of the health of the bride. He
was not used to public speaking and, words
failing him, he contented himself with the response,
"Well, there's naething wrang with the woman" ; and
in proposing the toast of "Applied Science" he
should like to point the moral of this story, and say
that there was nothing wrong with it ; that it was in a
state of absolute health, and in this country, as well
as in others, it was in a state of marvelous fertility,
and as each branch of Applied Sciences was apparently
capable of producing any number of other branches of
Applied Science, as time went on they might expect
a somewhat numerous family.

Sir William Ramsay K.C.B., D.Sc., LL.D., IF.R.S.
Bradford, Wednesday, July 15, 1903.


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[*] posted on 18-8-2010 at 02:59


potasium permanganete is not exotic
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[*] posted on 18-8-2010 at 07:39


Quote: Originally posted by Mildronate  
potasium permanganete is not exotic


That is absolutely true & you didn't punctuate correctly.



Come on, smile: put on a happy face. These discussions do not hold the weight of the world in balance.

[Edited on 18-8-2010 by quicksilver]




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[*] posted on 18-8-2010 at 13:15


Quote: Originally posted by Mildronate  
potasium permanganete is not exotic


Do I hear an echo?

Fluorine perhaps

TABLE 4
LF2, FLOX and LO2, SPILL TESTS

Surface material Cloud or vapor, behavior Reaction

10-lb LF2 Spills

Crushed limestone (411) Grayish cloud ascended at a low angle Sputtering and yellow flames

Dry sand (320) White cloud ascended at 45o angle Bright flame

Water-soaked sand (321) Light gray cloud ascended at 40o angle Strong explosion

Lake water** (5 gal) White cloud ascended Loud, sharp detonation

**5 pounds of LF2. used in test with lake water.
Apparatus damaged also.

Safety Planning For The Use Of Reactive Cryogens In large Volume
[Liquid fluorine - liquid oxygen rockets!!]
EE Harton Jr.
Prevention of And Protection Against Accidental Explosions of Munitions, Fuels and
Other Hazardous Mixtures
Annals of the New York Academy of Science
Volume 152, Art. 1 Pages 1-913 October, 28, 1968

Bromine pentafluoride is similar to chlorine trifluoride in its chemical behavior. Its
specific impulse is lower than that of chlorine trifluoride with the same fuel; however, it
is much denser and possesses distinct advantages for certain volume-limited
applications. It is miscible with chlorine trifluoride in all proportions over a wide
temperature range, and the mixture has properties intermediate to that of the pure
components.

RT Holtzmann
Chemical Rockets and Flame and Explosive Technology
Marcel Decker 1969
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[*] posted on 20-8-2010 at 15:42


Surplused ammo from the former yugoslavia is corrosive as has been mentioned in 7.62 nato and 7.62x39 as well as 5.45x39 from 80's is corrosive most likely due to hostilities a the time and lack of strategic materials. Also the same years and later from russia is also surplussing out manyof the same calibers of corrosive ammo.Ther should be no reason for any possible need for using corrosive primers,steel cases,and other money saving measures during peacetime.The only semi plausible reason Ive heard for still using corrosive primers at this late date is relaibility in the extreme cold of Russian winters.That doesnt really hold water since our own ordnance folks
test our own ammo in every possible climate/condition on earth.
Russians still cling to steel cased/laquered ,or polymer coated cases
and most often chinese copper washed steel case and copper washed steel jackets.The russians still use steel jackets and often a steel core
w/a thin lead envelope over the steel core and a copper wash over the steel jacket.Inexpensive generally inaccurate ammo just as thier weapons are inaccurate designed around the large tolerances in the rifles and ammo but gaining reliability over accuracy.
A rifle or mg that goes bang everytime the triggers pulled regardless of conditions is still consider a big advantage and rightly so.

I cant recall any mention of US ammo loaded to extreme pressures
for \mgs at any time during the 20th century.Linked MG ammo from aircraft to ground guns has never had any attached warning against use in std small arms.Many oyjher countries on the other hand have loaded thier MG ammo to unsafe pressures in rifles and submachinegun ammo to unsafe conditions in pistols and the case lot markings will indicate that.Normally for a import compays own protection ammo loaded to unsafe pressures will be advertised as such.SMG ammo for instance will be advertised as unsafe to fire in handduns
amd are only to be used in pistols in an emergency is stenciled by the country issuing the ammo.

Also Ive forgotten who claim s to have access to the raufoss rounds
in .50 cal but Id sure like to be privy to that Info.I would assume armor piercing explosive incindiary ammunition is considered a destructive device since 7.62 NATO AP ammo is illegal to sell.30 06 AP is Not for some reason and I can legally reload 30 06 AP projectiles into 7.62nato ammo but factory made 7.62 AP is illegal.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 01:04


One of the most exotic oxidizers is potassiumtetraperoxomanganate(V). Woelen has posted a nice writeup on how to make this interesting compound. Every mole of it contains 4 moles of peroxo ligans which makes this stuff an incredibly powerful oxidizer. In fact there's so much oxygene in it that plain heating will make it explode due to the release of a large volume of gasses.

There is a whole plenthora of other peroxo compounds - peroxo vanadates, bismuthates, titanates, tantalates, wolframates and so on. Most of them are too unstable to be stored at room temperature but a few of them keep well (vanadates and titanates AFAIK).

Zinc peroxide, unlike the alkali peroxides, can be made in anhydrous form and decent purity from any soluble Zn salt and H2O2. It is a very powerful oxidizer as well and it seems to be somewhat energetic too. If thrown onto a red hot heating plate it will flare up with a woosh! sound and a nice blue flame. A mixture with sulfur is impact sensitive just like the same mixture with KClO3, altough its difficult to set off by friction.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 01:56


The oxidizer you are referring to is potassium tetraperoxochromate(V), not the manganate. It has formula K3CrO8.
I assume you know that and just made a 'typo' ;)

This compound can be made fairly easily.

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/K3CrO8_synth...

Just be sure to keep the mix really cold! Low temperature is the key to success!

Another interesting oxidizer which I made is a compound, sometimes written as KVO4.2H2O:

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/KVO4/index.h...

Both the K3CrO8 and the "KVO4" I still have, years after I made them. They still are as energetic as when I prepared them.

[Edited on 21-8-10 by woelen]




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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 14:09


Quote: Originally posted by mewrox99  
Anyone done any sugar burns, tests with Al, Mg, or S with these oxidants.

Sodium Bismuthate
Strontium Peroxide
Sodium Percarbonate
Nitrites
Ferrates
Sodium Chlorite
Dichromates
Calcium Hypochlorite


I've done NaClO2 and sulfur flowers a long time ago, when I first started experimenting. I described the reaction in this post.

Quote: Originally posted by Taoiseach  
Zinc peroxide, unlike the alkali peroxides, can be made in anhydrous form and decent purity from any soluble Zn salt and H2O2. It is a very powerful oxidizer as well and it seems to be somewhat energetic too. If thrown onto a red hot heating plate it will flare up with a woosh! sound and a nice blue flame. A mixture with sulfur is impact sensitive just like the same mixture with KClO3, altough its difficult to set off by friction.


That's interesting. Perhaps it could be used to obtain nitrate. Na2O2 or BaO2 in excess deflagrated and/or decomposed with compounds like urea, CaCN2, Mg3N2, has been described in the literature as yielding more or less nitrate.
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[*] posted on 22-8-2010 at 16:45


Quote: Originally posted by Taoiseach  
Zinc peroxide, unlike the alkali peroxides, can be made in anhydrous form and decent purity from any soluble Zn salt and H2O2.


Do you have any method you follow for this?

I've mixed aq. ZnCl2 solution (made from Zn and HCl) with H2O2 (10%) and no reaction occurred, also not after sitting several minutes.
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[*] posted on 23-8-2010 at 21:38


The ZnO2 is formed from by reacting either ZnO or Zn(OH)2 with H2O2. Thus you could use ZnCl2+ammonia+H2O2. However you can also simply evaporate a solution of 30% H2O2 with pottery-grade ZnO at about 80°C. You will notice the solution will take a yellow/organge color. Use a large excess of H2O2 because quite a bit will simply decompose.

The ZnO2 is stable up to 150°C and I think thats why this reaction works at such a high temperature.
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[*] posted on 2-9-2010 at 03:45


Can you use 6% stuff instead of 30



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[*] posted on 3-9-2010 at 01:06


I expect it to work, but you may need longer heating. Just try it and see if you can obtain some energetic material from pottery grade ZnO.



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[*] posted on 8-9-2010 at 07:24


Inorganic Nitrate Hydrogen Peroxide Adducts & Methods for Their Preparation
US patent 20080190525

UPDATE

I received this inquiry regarding this post
Quote:
Do you know if the ANPER they talk about in that patent is more energetic than AN itself ?
Heat of explosion of NH4NO3 is 346 kcal / kg , heat of explosion of H2O2 is twice that , 724 kcal / kg
A one to one molar ratio is 80 grams NH4NO3 to 34 gms H2O2 , 34 / (34 + 80) is 0.298 , 80 / (34 + 80) is 0.702
0.298 X 724 is 216 kcal , 0.702 X 346 is 243 kcal, thus 243 + 216 is 459 kcal per Kilogram of ANPER
459 / 346 = 1.33 , 1/3 more energetic.

Quote:
I'm looking for a filler for a charge. Was gonna use AN at first, but will use ANPER if its more energetic.
(Will be mixed with the PETN/ETN I have left)
The patent is just 2 years old and entirely new to me. Your guess about how this may react
all mixed together is as good as anyone's , no data exits on how ithis may behave in practice.

.

[Edited on 9-9-2010 by franklyn]
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[*] posted on 14-9-2010 at 03:56


Percarboxylic acids are strong oxidizers. Anyone done any tests with those

I suspect performic acid + Mg would put on quite a perform-ance :D




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[*] posted on 20-9-2010 at 18:44


What sort of experimentation have people done with molten oxidizers

I tried molten NH4NO3 + Mg powder and it was awesome.

I will try molten KMnO4 + Sugar :D




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[*] posted on 13-10-2010 at 01:55



Back to the Raufoss12.7x99/.50cal Rounds so carefully discussed here I would still like to know where they might be available OT than the black market as Im sure would most other owners of the many .50cal rifles out there?:(
Also I dont recall the exact wording of the reason corrosive -priming wasnt as corrosive in period large caliber BP firearms?
I seem to recall it was said the large quantity of gases from the large bores/BP charges diluted the corrosive effects of the primers?
Sadly It didnt matter much as black powder is very corrosive in itself containing pottassium nitrate in large quantities as well as sulfur and charcoal.The Pottassium nitrate leaving large quantities of corrosive salts in addittion to the relatively small amounts of primer compound.Until the advent of smokeless powders and NC primers all bore cleaners that prevented corrosion contained water to wash away the salts as no amount of oil would suffice.As a matter of fact ww2/korean era soldiers were advised to clean thier bores with water from thier canteens if they were out of bore cleaner.
Love to see the privately purchased .50cal. Raufoss rounds and while your at it get us some SLAP 7.62 and .50cal tungsten carbide projectile saboted rounds for the respective calibers.:D
Sadly even normal hardened steel AP .7.62 is illegal for civilians to own unless as I mentioned before the bullets are reloaded from pulled 30-06 AP ammo.The ATF WANTs YOU!!:(
Lastly for whaT ITS WORTH iF I OWN AN ACCURAte rifle I dont want bullets riding over previously fired abrasive glass primer deposits nor did lknowledgable consumers.FWIW
[Edited on 13-10-2010 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 13-10-2010 by grndpndr]
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[*] posted on 13-10-2010 at 05:47


Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr  

Back to the Raufoss12.7x99/.50cal Rounds so carefully discussed here I would still like to know where they might be available OT than the black market as Im sure would most other owners of the many .50cal rifles out there?:(



www.gunbroker.com
www.autionarms.com


djh
----
WILLIAM SAFIRE
New York Times 12vii99

Disaster Never Came

WASHINGTON "Fate has ordained," a saddened President was prepared to say, "that the men who
went to the moon to explore in peace will stay to rest in peace."

That was the opening line of a speech to the nation that I drafted for Richard Nixon 30 years ago
this week, as Apollo XI was about to land on the moon.

NASA's liaison with the White House, the astronaut Frank Borman, had called me to say "You want
to be thinking of some alternative posture for the President in the event of mishaps. " When that
failed to register, he laid it out more plainly: "Like what to do for the widows."

The most dangerous part of the trip was not landing the little module on the moon, but in launching
it back up to the mother ship. If that failed, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin could not be rescued.
Mission Control would have to "close down communications" and, as the world agonized ' let the
doomed astronauts starve to death or commit suicide.

Nixon aides H. R. Haldeman and Peter Flanigan told me to plan for that tragic contingency. On July
18, 1969, 1- recommended that "in event of moon disaster ... the President should telephone each of
the widows-to-be and after NASA cut off contact "a clergyman should adopt the same procedure as a
burial at sea, commending their souls to 'the deepest of the deep,' concluding with the Lord's Prayer."
A draft Presidential speech was included.

I haven't thought about that macabre planning for three decades. Like most adults, I remembered
the exhilarating "MEN WALK ON MOON" headline, the phone call of congratulations to "Tranquillity
base" - and that historic weekend's dark counterpoint at Chappaquiddick, which ended the dynastic
potential of the brother of the President who launched the Apollo journey.

Last week, however, Jim Mann of The Los Angeles Times wrote a piece headed "The Story of a
Tragedy That Was Not to Be." He was digging through the National Archives last year, researching
his book on China policy, "About Face." He found our moon disaster contingency plan, and published
it the week before the anniversary along with the never-needed speech draft.

"These brave men, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, know there is no hope for their recovery," the
President would have had to say. "But they also know that there is hope for mankind in their
sacrifice....

"In ancient days, men looked at stars and saw their heroes in the constellations. In modem times,
we do much the same, but our heroes are epic men of flesh and blood.

"Others will follow, and surely find their way home. Man's search will not be denied. But these were
the first, and will remain foremost in our hearts.

"For every human being who looks up at the moon in the nights to come, will know that there is some
comer of another world that is forever mankind."

For 17 years afterward, we took, space triumph for granted. Terrible, risks were largely ignored -
untl the Challenger spacecraft blew up for all to see in classrooms and living rooms.

No disaster speech was on hand for President Reagan to deliver in the stunned aftermath. His
writer, Peggy Noonan, rose to the occasion with a moving address written at white heat, concluding
with the; words of the sonnet by James Gillespie Magee in farewell to the courageous crew who
"slipped the surly, bonds of earth to touch the face of God."

Time and chance happeneth to us, all. Armstrong and Aldrin are alive and well; the third man to
walk the moon, Pete Conrad, was killed last week when, like Lawrence of Arabia, he ran his
motorcycle into a ditch. But the point is not the quirkiness of Fate: our charge today is to value the
goal of discovery that drives? questing humans to take great risks.

A personal note. At historic. moments, speechwriters turn to poet The final line of the undelivered
salute evoked the cadence of the patriotic poet Rupert Brooke, who died in the Royal Navy in World
War I:

If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is forever England.


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