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JacFlasche
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 09:21
A Chemopolic Question


Hello fellow whatever,

I am not really up to the dilettante level of chemical understanding. However I do somewhat perceive the, often unexamined and unnoticed significance of a sort of nonspecific chemical influence, like an ambient chemical zeitgeist beneath our lives and culture. Along these lines the impact of the current recreational molecules comes into play and has a political effect. A perfect example of this would be the near perfect synchronization of the rise of coca derived recreational substances and the reemergence of superficiality, as typified by disco and the Reagan administration. And of course the abandonment of LSD and other psychedelic compounds. Compounds which demand a certain amount of attention, if not seriousness, even in their total abuse, as a cheap ticket to Disneyland, as apposed to a technology, no matter how cumbersome and laden with it's own inescapable problems, that allows an alternate set of perceptions and brings into question many of the cultural assumptions that one is born into. Now of course we are seeing the tail end of the return of what was a bad idea to begin with--speed--now adays that usually means methl or coke. Though once upon a time amphetamines where still a prescription for things other than attention deficit. Along with all the hippy, alternative, life-embracing drugs (shrooms etc.), there was also this quite diverse set of drugs that were being prescribed that were all different flavors of speed. I remember an overweight friend who got a pill call obadream or some thing that sounded like that, which contained two different amphetamines a tranquilizer and a full days supply of vitamins. At any rate it took a good decade or so for the population of recreational molecule users to figure out that, as was said at the time, "speed kills". I am sure some of you remember the ad campaigns that featured the likes of Janis Joplin (alcohol got her) pleading for her fans a least not to shoot speed. And as I remember the message pretty much got across, and despite a proliferation of black beauties and other later low grade stuff, the cultural bias was firmly in the, see-things-in-a-new-light "learn from an experience" as apposed to the hyper bandwidth with zero or less content that is speed. I won't get onto an anti speed rant, but please understand that the question I am about to ask, is out of a desire to understand something about the drift of the cultural bias toward specific recreational molecules that seems anomalous to me. That is, the natural progression of the larger segment of society that is now using molecules other than alcohol, caffeine, and sugar -- recreationally, represent a sort of third wave of people, many of who's extra molecular activity are not based in the kind of intellectual exploration and existential movements that were the bias in the initial flowering of a largely botanical second wave of drug users whos focus was largely claimed to be experiential supplementation. Now it seems that our current third wave of drug users, is due for a collective crash when they finally reinvent the wheel and figure out that speed sucks. Those with a taste for the titilation afforded by faster and louder but shallower and stupider, will not seek consolation in experiential religion or psychological practices or fads, but in analgesics. I have had quite a bit of exposure to different analgesics in my life. I have medical prescriptions that would probably make me a target for a brake-in if it became known. I am not bragging I am in a continual struggle between pain relief and really not wanting all this stuff in my body. Anyhow during my life I have been exposed to many different pain relieving substances. Well I have pain, so I tend to keep current on the political mindset about pain relief because it really affects me. For instance, for many years, before I reached my current need, I made due with hydrocodone with Tylenol, simply because that's what most doctors can write and it isn't held in suspicion, and you can usually buy it OTC when OOTC (over the counter, out of the country). The rules regarding pain relief make it very clear that our society is still more against anyone experiencing undeserved pleasure, or in my case pain relief, than it is concerned for their health. If you take a thousand pills that contain any amount of tylenol at all , over your entire LIFE TIME you chances of dying of kidney failure doubles. Yet the LD 50 of tylenol and it's cumulative toxic effects are used as a way to keep people from taking more than their prescribed amount of codone at one time, even though if you have chronic pain and take you meds as prescribed, but over a long period, it will kill you, this is a small price to pay to assure the people who have been brainwashed by insane belief systems (any religion that takes the commuications of its founders and authorities as literal truth, such a Judiasm, Christianity, Islam, and the other religions of the masses, hold insane beliefs and therefore though they may be functional as members of society (like a methedone addict can be) they are at base conflicted, because their subconscious mind suspects that their own belifs are nutz even if the person has been frightened into not allowing this thought to gain a hold of the conscious mind. So like I was saying, any price you pay personally to mollify the insane assumptions of the fear infested minds of those infected in their youth by the abuse known as fundamentalism, is really worth it. Even if it means you dying of kidney failure so that you don't experience undue pleasure. The doctors cannot write a refillable prescription for major pain meds, and they are afraid that they will be persecuted by the DEA if they write what would be effective, even though all the studies show that a person who is taking meds for pain has a much easier time stopping them if his pain goes away, than someone who is in it for recreational purposes. This is my question. I have read what the former head of the DEA had to say years ago about these emerging pain relief molecules that were just vastly potent compared to something like heroin. Which I was happy to hear because, like it or not, if things progress with me and with many other people, we could run out of viable options short of something like Michael Jackson was doing. Except now there are supposed to be these hyper potent compounds. hundreds of times more potent than morphine. Well I don't think I've ever experience anything that strong in a hospital. I have however experienced all those that are commonly available for chronic pain patients and for operations and what not. Of these, the one that stands out to me, by far, isn't a shot of fentanyl or an IV of morphine. It's a little pill that is vastly potent when taken orally in very small doses: levo dromaran:

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/levorphanol....

In any sane culture this would be the compound of choice because even junkies have been shown to naturally titrate to a functional level when allowed as much heroin as they want. They won't keep doing more and more they will increase incrementally to a point where they will back off a little and then stay at that level. So like I said, due to my condition I have a natural motivation to be interested in the whole area of study. I have reviewed a lot of the counterculture material on the issue that is on the internet and done a fair amount of research. So, as I said, it seems to me that the cultural bias in the sphere of recreational molecules of this third wave, which can even be seen as a return to the first wave pre sixties orientation toward drugs as booze, will increasingly turn to the truly euphoric compounds, and away from the tweaking, self-absorbed gibberish that is the mind on speed. Speed kills (remember that campaign?) So the thing that doesn't make sense it this. We have all these junkies, and chippers, tweekers and under medicated people who suffer continually because the medical profession has become an enforcement arm of the DEA. It was even worse a few years ago. Many doctors would actually rather let a patient die in agony than change the dosing schedule recommended by the authorities. I myself watched a beloved great aunt die in agony from leukemia because her closest relatives were afraid that she would become addicted to pain killers. I know this makes no sense as she was about to die anyway, but that was the mindset, and it still persists, despite all evidence that reality is far different than the official story, and equally as different form the deconstruction of the official story.

So I am wondering where are these super analgesics that we were warned about years ago as an imminent threat, as if they were part of Saddam’s nuclear program. It didn't make sense. Why all the trouble to grow and smuggle an inferior product (street heroin) that may have been up someone's ass and have all manner of contaminants that are killing people, not to mention the fact that the substance they seem to need is so expensive because of the law, that it keeps them involved in a desperate attempt to get cash. But I really don't think there is any chance at all of a sane policy toward drugs. There is too much money in it just because it is illegal. There is too much corruption. The politicians and judges and police will never give up the money that flows to them because of the misery of a portion of the population that is in dire need of a substance that is lacking in them, and they substitute the drug of their choice for it. So I thought, Where is all the underground levo dromaran, and the rest of the really great pain relievers that the crashing tweekers either need or are gonna need soon? I thought, well it must be really hard to make, or it would be everywhere. I looked in on the various archives of some of the recreational molecule sites. Much to my surprise, they seemed to be saying that Levo Dromaran was relatively easy to make. Now I don't know. I read the thing about how to make it. I don't know enough about chemistry to know if it is easy to make or if this is something that some chemical genius had to say about it. So I am asking this here for my own intellectual edification. I mean this is just what the people dying on the streets need. It is very potent taken orally. I can attest to this from medical use. It also says it is almost or just as strong orally as when injected. Wouldn't it save a lot of lives and misery if some little pill showed up that satisfied the addicts search for euphoria at a very low oral dose and didn't make you sleepy? And it's easy to make? This doesn't make sense, and anyone who can shed any light on this anomaly from a chemical perspective, (not asking for a how to, I wouldn't understand it anyhow) Just looking for the reason why this isn't being done, at least on any level like it would need to, to supplant iv heroin and meth use. Any opinions? TIA\Jac
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Vogelzang
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 10:07


Congratulations. This must be the worst give me a dope recipe question ever written on the internet. It hurts to see what drugs can do to the intellect, but I'll still probably head out to the liquor store soon, before my regular alcohol abstinance plan comes into effect again in the fall.
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JacFlasche
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 10:34


Really, You don't think this is a legitimate question? I didn't ask for a recipe did I? I simply asked for a comment on why something is not being done. I personally have quite a collection of pain killers that are prescribed to me. In fact I had to use 90mg of morphine sulphate this morning for pain. I am neither in need of analgesics or money. But I see a lot of miserable souls who are, everyday on the streets. I personally don't use alcohol as it makes people stupid. I wouldn't use morphine either if there was a non drug therapy that worked for me. So despite you instant wise kneejerk, my question is really a question. Why, with all the apparent need and market, isn't this being done? I suspect that it is not truly an easy thing to do, but I don't know, so I asked. Personally when I have break through pain my doc will usually prescribe Levo because it works and lasts very long and dosen't knock you out. I guess the pain in your life is yet to come. Except for maybe psychological pain, as refelected in your alcohol use. Psychological pain isn't anything. When you have the exquisite experience of breaking into a cold sweat and passing out from pain perhaps you wouldn't be so off hand know it all about other people's motivations.

[Edited on 21-8-2010 by JacFlasche]
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JacFlasche
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 11:22


If anyone else has an equally low ability to comprehend the written word like Vogel, I would just like to make it clear that I am not asking for a recipe. I am asking a for a general response such as, "The statments that claim this is easy to do are misleading." I do not care to know chemical specifics. In fact the link I give is a recipe, I guess. My interest is more in why this is such an unknown and forgotten drug? Because it is a wonderful drug. It kills pain dead, and doesn't make you sleepy, and you need very little of it. Yet typically if you were dying of cancer your palliative care doc would be much more likely to give you something like methadone or morphine, neither of which are in the same league as far as feelings of well being even though your body is self-destructing beneath you. I asked an honest question and this is what I get in response. I was hoping that this was not the kind of place where sarcasm needed to stand in for intelligence like in the above post by Vogel. What would possibly motivate someone to make a post like that. Feelings of superiority brought on by deep seated fears? Who knows? I was expecting a little more from this site. Like perhaps a response form grown ups. And here is a question for you. If I were, or someone was, asking for a "recipe" you must be very blinded by the overall consensus reality that has been foisted upon you to automatically assume a condemning tone. The real fact is you don't know what will do any particular individual good or harm. Or maybe you just don't know how to really be anonymous on the internet so you feel compelled to exhibit asinine behaviour in your compulsive response. Or maybe, and this is my guess, outside of a very narrow field you are not very intelligent and really didn't comprehend my post. Judging by you instant pedestrian hostility that's where I would place my bet.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 11:49


There are economic, pharmacological, societal and other reasons. But your question has little to nothing to do with organic chemistry. It is not really original either. Personally, I wonder why there isn't much more 2C-B instead of MDMA on the streets. In any case: wrong forum - try "whimsy".

PS: Your question can probably be condensed to two or three sentences, please don't make a huge novel out of it.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 11:54


Perhaps folks on this site, were expecting a little less from you.

I'm not criticizing the quality of your writing. But, I am suggesting that there is an over-abundance of it.

Refresh your memory, regarding the crafting of a concise, readable, communication.

"The Elements of Style".........Strunk and White.

Get to the point. Omit needless words.



[Edited on 21-8-2010 by zed]

[Edited on 21-8-2010 by zed]
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devongrrl
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 12:08


What a wall of text, I didn't even bother reading it.

Perhaps you should learn about paragraphs.

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JacFlasche
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 12:08


So far lots of criticism. No responses
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JacFlasche
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 12:12


Why would someone comment on something they didn't bother to read?
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JacFlasche
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 12:15


Sorry to upset your homeostasis. Obviously hostility is the cultural norm here and that leaves me out. bye bye
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 12:20


Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
Obviously hostility is the cultural norm here and that leaves me out.
It is not! And we'll flame the hell out of anybody who says it is.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 12:23


Or perhaps, your megalo-maniacal babbling, induces just criticism, that you interpret as hostility.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 12:30


Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
OOTC (over the counter, out of the country)


Hehe, I didn't know that one :D

EDIT: 100 bucks that this thread will become most popular on forum if it dosen't get locked, 100 bucks! :D

[Edited on 21-8-2010 by Sandmeyer]




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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 12:57


Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
Sorry to upset your homeostasis.


You have not upset my homeostasis. You have perturbed my karma, and that is much worse.




The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 13:09


Maybe if you rephrase your question into one paragraph or two at the most, I'll bother to read it and give you an answer.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 13:19


Damn! It is in oportunities like these that I wish I never was a moderator. Do I really have to read several kB of unparagraphed text just to check if it is posted in the wrong forum section?

Anyway, now that I'm done I might as well reply or else I will feel stupid for having read all that. I guess most replies above were born out of the same need.
Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
I am asking a for a general response such as, "The statments that claim this is easy to do are misleading."

The statements that claim this is easy to do are misleading.

Trust me. Levorphanol is not easy to synthesize. Well, it is easy compared to the total synthesis of, let's say Salvinorin A, but it is not equally easy as the synthesis of several much more potent mu agonists. So, this could be one of the reasons why it does not appear on the black market. Nobody profit oriented would chose to have it synthesized when there are simpler and more potent stuff available. It could originate on the street as a diversion from legitimate sources, though.
But this it can be the only reason, because you don't see much else but occasionally fentanyl on the black market when it comes to opioids. I like to think, but I'm sure I'm self deluding myself, that one of the most important reasons is in that to being able to synthesize such compounds one needs to study for years and that in this process he forgets about the original goal and builds up some ethical barriers disallowing him from doing something so idiotic as making opiods for money. But when I start to think rationally I come to think the main reason is much more banal. Something like criminals and traders thinking like: "Why bothering? We have a cheap supply of heroin from Afghanistan and heroin is what our customers want. Only an idiot would change business when the business runs smooth and perfect."




…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)

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21-8-2010 at 13:26
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 14:51


I was convinced that the first post was an amphetamine fueled rant until I got to the part about the narcotics.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 15:31


They are not really without paragraphs, their just not little paragraphs. Anyway thanks for slogging through a post that obviously has no value in any of the thoughts expressed in it.

Your response makes sense. For the most part. Thanks

I don't have any connection to any black market personally, but I have done some lurking in pain groups and even what I would consider addict groups. No I am not the type of individual that takes photos of his medications and posts them as pinups for junkies. Very few of these people would switch places with me no matter the access to meds.

Levo is hard to make. I suspected as much.

My view that has emerged from a survey of various forums more or less devoted to drug abuse know how, leads me to believe that these people hate heroin. Or rather they hate the heroin that they are able to obtain. You don't know how many time I stopped myself from making derisive posts to people who's life came to center around not being sick. But the truth is that I am not the same as them chemically. I can tell this by the simple fact that I can have hundreds of fast release Oxycontin or morphine sulphate on hand and not take any, and feel good about it. Sure if I am coming out of a bad period I taper off, but I can do this in just a few days and until the pain returns I am fine with how I feel.

This is just not true of these people. And it doesn't seem to me that it is a matter of moral superiority or will power or any of that nonsense. We are chemically different. I have seen the same thing with some people and alcohol. It was like something was always missing in their metabolism until they start drinking, usually as a teenager, and once they started it's too late.

People have different pain thresholds and much different responses to pain meds, so government interference in something that should be the sole province of medicine becomes a road to a political or law enforcement career by people who are generally amoral, as regards the bodies they step on to advance.

In my opinion anyone who would produce a quality product and make it available to these poor desperate souls is acting morally. Much more morally than guide lines that do not even take into account factors like 10% percent of the male population does not have any response to codeine, but that is most likely the only pain med that will be offered them by their GP, and if they complain about them not being effective or about the damage that tylenol does to humans, it is considered as a matter of policy to be drug seeking behavior. Or the fact that super intelligent mice were found to be super sensitive to pain when they were genetically engineered. Or the fact that drug seeking behavior is entirely appropriate if you need drugs.

It's just a friggen witch hunt. That people build careers on. It's the same thing as the Inquisition. It's all based in lies like the total insanity that a huge portion of humanity accepts as truth because of childhood conditioning.

If you actually think that something like black tar heroin is what addicts want you need to go on some of these forums and read how dismal and hopeless and lost in pain, unable to stop themselves, and just wanting to feel normal these people are. This is the only choice that we as a society have offered to these people. What you may consider a moral concern, I consider a chemical concern, even though I know nothing about chemistry outside of broad generalizations and you know much.

If someone were to offer these people a way to have meds and not be totally debased by their need, because of what we allow in our name, via the government, and support because of fear and ignorance, to me that would be the moral person, and why shouldn't they make some money doing it. Do you work for free? Almost every public policy ends up being the opposite of it's initially stated purpose. The only reason that these things are a danger and unhealthy is because we make it that way and ignore all the evidence that is available from more caring societies that have had the courage to question the heartless power elite that establish policies that create problems, that they can then rise to power campaigning against. Don't Americans ever get tired of being dupes of their keepers?

I hope these paragraphs are small enough for everyone. I checked with my friend the mTV video editor and he said they should not present a problem to you all.

[Edited on 21-8-2010 by JacFlasche]

[Edited on 21-8-2010 by JacFlasche]
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entropy51
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 15:44


Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
In my opinion anyone who would produce a quality product and make it available to these poor desperate souls is acting morally. Much more morally than guide lines that do not even take into account factors like 10% percent of the male population does not have any response to codeine, but that is most likely the only pain med that will be offered them by their GP, and if they complain about them not being effective or about the damage that tylenol does to humans, it is considered as a matter of policy to be drug seeking behavior. Or the fact that super intelligent mice were found to be super sensitive to pain when they were genetically engineered. Or the fact that drug seeking behavior is entirely appropriate if you need drugs.

It's just a friggen witch hunt.
As a physician, I can state that this is utter tripe. There are many other meds that we can and do prescribe for patients if the standard meds are ineffective. Many of them contain no tylenol.

Drug seeking behavior is not the same as people in pain who seek relief. Physicians are well trained to distinguish between these two groups. Few of us are the idiots that you would make us out to be.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 15:48


Quote:

...I checked with my friend the mTV video editor...


If strange persons are appearing next to you while doing drugs, you definitely do too much drugs.

And in case you feel any mercy for heroin addicts, I don't.
These people had at least a functional brain before doing this shit, so they could have thought about the consequences.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 15:54


As a physician I would expect nothing other than for you to defend your monopoly. And you have obviously never been on the other side of the prescription stick.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 15:59


Quote: Originally posted by hinz  
Quote:



And in case you feel any mercy for heroin addicts, I don't.
These people had at least a functional brain before doing this shit, so they could have thought about the consequences.


I don't feel mercy. Mercy is not a feeling. I am not judging them so there is no need for mercy.

I do however feel compassion for them, and it seems you don't. Because of this I now feel compassion for you though. If you have great luck, someday you will too.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 16:52


Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
As a cancer survivor, I feel confident in saying you are full of shit.


Sorry to hear, what type of, if I may ask? I wonder since I'm at times preoccupied thinking about nasty diseases.




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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 17:09


Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
As a physician I would expect nothing other than for you to defend your monopoly. And you have obviously never been on the other side of the prescription stick.
As a cancer survivor, I feel confident in saying you are full of shit. I know about pain in ways that you could not possibly imagine.

Everybody wants to be a physician, but few of us have the intestinal fortitude to go to medical school.

I did, and you don't.

Why don't you go troll somewhere else?



Yeah it's the old I'm a physician god complex. You sir are surely superior because you attended medical school. You must have great grit and fortitude and humility. I salute you sir and all the rationalizations that support your superior posturing. God speed. You have even survived the great peril that your ego could expand to such a degree that you brain died and you started tossing inane disparaging remarks. Aside from that good luck with the cancer, truely wish at least your body well.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 17:20


"These people had at least a functional brain before doing this shit, so they could have thought about the consequences."

Such closed-minded pomp. How different you would probably feel if a loved one was affected in this way.

I think this thread should be closed. I can see this headed in the wrong direction.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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