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JacFlasche
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 17:29


How do I close it?
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entropy51
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 17:43


Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  

Yeah it's the old I'm a physician god complex. You sir are surely superior because you attended medical school. You must have great grit and fortitude and humility.
Nothing godlike about it. We just happen to know things that you don't because we had a lot of training in them and passed many exams to prove that we know it. That's the reason that we are allowed to practice medicine and prescribe medications. If you think that's a monopoly, maybe you should consider that physician assistants, nurse practitioners, and some places psychologists and pharmacists are also allowed to prescribe. It's the training, pure and simple.

[Edited on 22-8-2010 by entropy51]
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 17:44


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Psychological pain isn't anything.

Well you have already pissed me off with the obvious fact that you are dismissing something you appear to have no experiance with while at the same time suggesting that others who are acting the same towards you(acting thru unfounded bias and ignorence) are all wrong. But I will attempt to look past this incomplete thought of yours for the time being and move on.


Quote:
It's just a friggen witch hunt. That people build careers on. It's the same thing as the Inquisition. It's all based in lies like the total insanity that a huge portion of humanity accepts as truth because of childhood conditioning.


Not entirerly correct. This is not a witch hunt. That would imply they do not understand what they are dealing with where as in this case they know full well. When someone is addicted to heroin they sell him methadrone. Why you may ask? Because they can't sell him heroin so they chose the next best thing. Given that I work with alot of dope addicts I can assure you they make no distinction between the two.

@entropy
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Drug seeking behavior is not the same as people in pain who seek relief. Physicians are well trained to distinguish between these two groups. Few of us are the idiots that you would make us out to be.


I disagree, those seeking drugs in many cases are the same type of people as those looking for relief. The difference is they are not looking for relief of physical pain as much as psychological, AKA the pain thats not real according to our host, however if you look around you will find few successful people who are 100% sober. Everyone even if they don't truely admit it are looking for a change in perspective because of a brain and body not designed to function in todays enviroment. I draw little distinction between physical and phychological pain since I feel one is a projection of the other.



@Host
Also please understand that your physical pain is in good chance caused by the pain killers your taking and opiates are by far the WORST pain killers one will ever aquire. There rebound on the mental AND the physical is terrible. Someone can have no back pain but I can assure you that after a week or more of hydrocodone they will experiance lower back pain from spasmatic mussles within two days of discontinuation.

When the cure is the cause of the fever I feel alternative paths should be sought.





Knowledge is useless to useless people...

"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story before."~Maynard James Keenan
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entropy51
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 17:50


Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
How do I close it?
Oh you think you own the thread, just because you started it? You wish you could close it to prevent further analysis of your progressive ideas about drug abuse? Sorry dude, it doesn't work that way.

Next time think twice before kicking the hornet's nest.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 17:54


Wasp nest is that way,
:*:Shameless plug alert:*:
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Knowledge is useless to useless people...

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entropy51
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 17:59


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
I draw little distinction between physical and phychological pain since I feel one is a projection of the other.
OK, I admit Sedit has an intuitive feel for it. Some of us just had to study it in school to get it right.
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JacFlasche
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 18:05


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Quote:
Psychological pain isn't anything.

Well you have already pissed me off with the obvious fact that you are dismissing something you appear to have no experiance with while at the same time suggesting that others who are acting the same towards you(acting thru unfounded bias and ignorence) are all wrong. But I will attempt to look past this incomplete thought of yours for the time being and move on.


You are quite right. What I intended to convey is that psychological pain is not anything in comparison to exquisite physical pain. But to tell you the truth I was only considering what could be classified as normal psychological pain. Certainly many abnormal psychological conditions can be every bit as excruciating as even exquisite physical pain. And at that level it is often clearly evident that they interact, causing spasms and contortions.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 18:08


Maybe abit intuitive, but years experiance with the desperate and the addicted kind of gives you a good sence of whos here in it for what reason. Esp when you have known the people years before any drug use became a factor so that you have a baseline for comparison. Theres a certine look of sadness, even when they smile, in the eyes of those looking for relief where as theres emptyness in the hardcore addicts smile. I still feel the hardcore addict started somewhere beit as a pain relief or as a mental relief. Overall abuse of any substance will lead to a horrible end overall.




Knowledge is useless to useless people...

"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story before."~Maynard James Keenan
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JacFlasche
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 18:22


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Quote:



Quote:
It's just a friggen witch hunt. That people build careers on. It's the same thing as the Inquisition. It's all based in lies like the total insanity that a huge portion of humanity accepts as truth because of childhood conditioning.


"Not entirerly correct. This is not a witch hunt. That would imply they do not understand what they are dealing with where as in this case they know full well. When someone is addicted to heroin they sell him methadrone. Why you may ask? Because they can't sell him heroin so they chose the next best thing. Given that I work with alot of dope addicts I can assure you they make no distinction between the two.

You are assuming that the persons who hunted witches didn't know that they were burning innocent usually defenseless old women because when convicted of witchcraft typically the person who accused them received a portion of the convicted witches possesions. But I guess that is not really common knowledge.


As to your other point. I assure you that there is a huge preference in the addict community for heroin over methadrone. Possibly because the amount of methadone they receive isn't as strong as their natural titration on the street. I don't know. But I do know that you can buy methadone on the street and it is usually sold by junkies who are selling it to by heroin. At least on the east coast which remains mostly white heroin this is true.

@entropy
Quote:
Drug seeking behavior is not the same as people in pain who seek relief. Physicians are well trained to distinguish between these two groups. Few of us are the idiots that you would make us out to be.


I disagree, those seeking drugs in many cases are the same type of people as those looking for relief. The difference is they are not looking for relief of physical pain as much as psychological, AKA the pain thats not real according to our host, however if you look around you will find few successful people who are 100% sober. Everyone even if they don't truely admit it are looking for a change in perspective because of a brain and body not designed to function in todays enviroment. I draw little distinction between physical and phychological pain since I feel one is a projection of the other.



@Host
Also please understand that your physical pain is in good chance caused by the pain killers your taking and opiates are by far the WORST pain killers one will ever aquire. There rebound on the mental AND the physical is terrible. Someone can have no back pain but I can assure you that after a week or more of hydrocodone they will experiance lower back pain from spasmatic mussles within two days of discontinuation.

When the cure is the cause of the fever I feel alternative paths should be sought.



This is not my experience at all. In fact I just heard an expert on On Point the other week state that the opiates are absolutely one of the least harmful drugs you can use. Unless you are shooting shit into your veins in unsanitary conditions. That is a killer. The lower back pain is probably caused by inactivity. I have use thousands of hydrocondone with no such effects. But I keep active as I am able.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 18:35


"This is not my experience at all. In fact I just heard an expert on On Point the other week state that the opiates are absolutely one of the least harmful drugs you can use. Unless you are shooting shit into your veins in unsanitary conditions. That is a killer. The lower back pain is probably caused by inactivity. I have use thousands of hydrocondone with no such effects. But I keep active as I am able. "

Inactivity? I dream for the day, however I would like to hear the conditions of this major pain your speaking of. Where is it, causes of it ect... all of this is relevent to weather or not opiates would be effective. And no, in no way are opiates truely safe for you. The lest harmful drug I know of currently being perscribed for pain is Cannabinoids. Oddly enough its the most contriversal pain medication out there.





Knowledge is useless to useless people...

"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story before."~Maynard James Keenan
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JacFlasche
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 18:40


Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
How do I close it?
Oh you think you own the thread, just because you started it? You wish you could close it to prevent further analysis of your progressive ideas about drug abuse? Sorry dude, it doesn't work that way.

Next time think twice before kicking the hornet's nest.


Damn you are on a delusional ego trip. I hardly consider this a hornets nest or anything that I wrote as a kick. I know everyone wants to be like you, but can't, and that is the bedrock of your reality but consider that I was not commenting on you at all before you took up your doc flag. I was only reporting my experience with the medical profession as regards pain abatement. Now I understand that according to you I could not possibly understand the profound pain that you have experienced. However some of you comments are so childish that I would be ashamed to have written them, and this makes me question your integrity on every level. "I went to med school and you didn't." Really smacks of the schoolyard. "Everyone wants to be a physician." Don't you understand how pathetic this is. Even for a med school graduate-- especially for one. I am sorry sir I can respond to you no further because it can only possibly lead to further derision of your profoundly laughable posturing and I find that a less than desirable impulse on my own part. So have the last word like a good little deluded egocentric and you can wonder off with a somewhat intact self-concept -- humorous as it may be to others.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 18:49


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
"

Inactivity? I dream for the day, however I would like to hear the conditions of this major pain your speaking of. Where is it, causes of it ect... all of this is relevent to weather or not opiates would be effective. And no, in no way are opiates truely safe for you. The lest harmful drug I know of currently being perscribed for pain is Cannabinoids. Oddly enough its the most contriversal pain medication out there.


I like your quotes. I am happy with my present physicians, one of them actually saved my life, but thanks for the concern.

In my opinion cannabis doesn't really stop pain, it just makes things interesting despite the pain, but it does go a long way in making pain meds work better and therefore making an effective dosage smaller. That's my experience. It could be placebo effect I guess, but that works for me too;)
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 18:53


Good night all and God bless. Its been a real experience. Almost singular.
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 20:38



Quote:

Not entirerly correct. This is not a witch hunt. That would imply they do not understand what they are dealing with where as in this case they know full well. When someone is addicted to heroin they sell him methadrone. Why you may ask? Because they can't sell him heroin so they chose the next best thing. Given that I work with alot of dope addicts I can assure you they make no distinction between the two.


I really hate doing this but I am going to say that you are either a liar, purposefully spouting misinformation or have completely misunderstood what "dope addicts" were telling you. It is an absolute distortion of the truth to the highest degree to say something like, "addicts, in general, make no distinction between heroin and methadrone (sic)".

This is absolutely and completely false and I hope you will admit this and just move on. I don't like misinformation being spread.

If you would like me to go into the details of this argument, by all means tell me I'm wrong.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 20:59


Sorry MJP I am personally not a huge fan of opiates however one of these folks just told me yesterday that methadone hes on is just like heroin. This is a general consensus with this group of folks. The only logical conclusion to this is that they do not distinquish between methadrone and heroin very much.

As far as misunderstanding the "dope addicts" or atlest the main conversation that peaked my curiousity, It went as such. The other person BTW is a 155 lb male with a persription to fentanyl as well if that matters in anyway.

Him: Blah Blah Blah,,, im perscribed to fentanyl(shows patch) and methadrone.

Me: "I never tried methadrone. .... never really had any desire to"

Him: "Really? Why dude? Its great man, its exactly like ....well........ you know, whatever...... maybe a little bit better...."




The .."whatever" part was because we had company with who he didnt feel like sharing that information with but he and I know that it indeed ment heroin without the slightest doubt.

Iv never taken nither methadrone or Heroin without the slightest desire to do so, so I would not know exactly where to comment on any of this other then hear say but I can assure you from a visual observation I can not tell the difference between methadrone and Heroin.

[Edited on 22-8-2010 by Sedit]





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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 21:19


I've never heard any heroin addict say that methadone is the same. They will say methadone CAN get them high but for some reason they prefer heroin. These types of addicts seem to be after the instantaneous "rush" type high that apparently comes from IV administration. Although I agree that, technically, methadone and heroin shouldn't be that different if dosages were adjusted and tolerance taken into account (despite methadone having a much longer half-life), I have never met a heroin addict that would ever choose methadone unless they were trying to get their life straight.

I find this strange, however, because methadone's half-life is so much longer. It would make sense to me that they wouldn't have to keep shooting up every few hours. But see, that's not the point, they just want the instant gratification that heroin can give but methadone can't (sometimes I wonder how much of this is psychological; although I do somewhat understand the biochemistry of it all). It is somewhat hard to understand but that's the way it is.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 21:37


It sounds as it may have something to do with the fact that the majority of the population I have spoken with from the area forgos IV an administer the substances via intranasally( atlest as far as I know at the moment). Some may argue that this is not a true addict but I assure you that someone who makes this a daily chore is indeed addicted. Given his daily intake of opiates I am convinced the fellow I spoke with would suffer greatly in the case of abrupt discontinuation if he managed to survive at all.

I have no intention of spreading misinformation as well as I have no intention of spreading bias but the conclusions I have come to are based on first person accounts and I am left to interperate them to the best of my abilitys,





Knowledge is useless to useless people...

"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story before."~Maynard James Keenan
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[*] posted on 21-8-2010 at 21:53


Being addicted has nothing to do with route of administration or type of drug. To put it simply, being addicted to something is not being able to quit even though your use is having negative consequences that outweigh the benefit of using. And remember, addiction, tolerance and dependence are three different yet often related things. I won't go into here unless someone specifically requests it.



"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 22-8-2010 at 00:27


If you are an opiate addict, being a chemist is very helpful. You can get your dope for almost free. It won't protect you from the long term psychological deterioration associated with opiate addiction, but it will keep you off of the streets, and if you are careful....out of jail.

My buddy Dr. Death, maintained a ferocious opiate addiction for some years, by the simple expedient of making his own stuff. Didn't sell much. Didn't have to.

He got crazier and crazier as time went by, skinnier and skinnier, and more and more obnoxious. Made etonitazine, china white, etc... You name it, he made it, and then he took mountains of it. By the time he was done, it was hard to feel anything but pity for him. He had become a pathetic wretch.

Seeking oblivion by shutting down your higher brain functions, isn't a reasonable long term method for assuaging psychic agony. Short term, possibly.

Unfortunately, the tendency to abuse, and addiction, is very widespread. Some can take it or leave it. Many cannot; they lose all control and plunge headlong into addiction, if the means are available to them.

Personally, I have no problem taking a big bottle of oxycontin, and flushing it down the toilet. It doesn't appeal to me, and I don't care about it. In the past, I sometimes passed-on my unwanted medications to friends. This was usually a big mistake. Very quickly, they would become sick and crazed. And sometimes, they would develop serious legal problems.

I generally favor freedom of choice in most areas of life. If folks universally showed good judgement, and confined themselves to modest opiate consumption, I would favor complete otc legalization. As the world actually exists, I feel we must restrict access.

Pretty much, for the same reasons, that we don't give machine guns to monkeys.





[Edited on 22-8-2010 by zed]
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[*] posted on 22-8-2010 at 03:09


Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
Levo is hard to make. I suspected as much.

The problem is that, even if you are up to the racemate, the synthesis uses some unpleasant steps. Already the first step, the synthesis of 2-(cyclohexa-1,4-dien-1-yl)ethylamine calls for a Birch reduction in liquid ammonia. Chemists rather avoid such reactions when possible. For a similar number of synthetic steps or less, with the difference that they are all trivial and straightforward, you can make fentanyl analogues, for example. With even less troubles and synthetic steps you can make nitazene compounds. All are considerably more potent than your "Levo" and the syntheses are more easily upscaled, so that those interested in profit would be unlikely to chose levorphanol for their nefarious business.

Quote:
My view that has emerged from a survey of various forums more or less devoted to drug abuse know how, leads me to believe that these people hate heroin. Or rather they hate the heroin that they are able to obtain.

The main reason is probably that consumers can not buy heroin itself on the black market, but are offered only mixtures of heroin diluted to 5% or less with all kind of crap. When they accidentally buy heroin instead, usually the first one to use it dies. But if they hate it so much, why do they still use it? Perhaps they just lye to you and themselves, and they love it regardless of everything. Personally, I still don't really understand why some people like narcotics (or TV, religion, alcohol, consumerism, leaders...). They are boring, sedative and make you feel like you were either unborn or dead. Ideal drugs to avoid. Their only usefulness is their ability to alleviate pain, but even then they become more or less useless as they start to promote pain once you become tolerant. So even in this respect they are only useful for a short term use. I think one really needs to be fucked up by being raised in a fucked up society by a fucked up family to consider narcotics (or TV, religion, alcohol, consumerism, leaders...) as a cure for their trauma. But then I tend to think that nearly everything that could have been fucked up was already fucked up long time ago and thus everything is considered just normal as it is, even the use of narcotics. So go on and use them.

Quote:
We are chemically different.

No, we are just different and have a different background (having been fucked up differently). It is not about chemistry.

Quote:
In my opinion anyone who would produce a quality product and make it available to these poor desperate souls is acting morally.

Since we are different, we have very different opinions and here my opinion is diametrically opposite to yours. Perhaps because I don't believe people have souls and thus can't consider them "poor desperate souls". If I would start thinking in such gnostic terms, then I could just as well take it to the extreme and consider the chemists involved in the production of Zyklon B as acting morally. But I can't. I'm agnostic so I'm forced to stick to solid ethics and "opioids for the masses" just don't add up in my calculations.




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[*] posted on 23-8-2010 at 21:32


In principle at least, criminalization of drugs is similar to criminalization of any molecule or collection of molecules (or atoms) that one can use to harm themselves or sometimes others.

The ONLY difference here are people's perceptions of the drugs we love to hate and the effect various substances have on society.

For example, a combat knife can be used to kill and so can heroin but the difference lies in numbers (and intent of design). In fact, the knife could be considered somehow worse because it was designed specifically to kill. Again, the difference lies in the numbers or, alternatively although not mutually exclusive of course, it lies in what people consider moral and "good". Drugs and addicts are looked down upon in our socity but knives and knive owners are not. This could come right back to the numbers, however.

For some reason what I have just written seems weird. Ah screw it, I'm throwing it out there.




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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[*] posted on 23-8-2010 at 23:44




Quote:
We are chemically different.

No, we are just different and have a different background (having been fucked up differently).

Quote:
It is not about chemistry.





Here I disagree with you. It's all about chemistry. Not the kind that takes place in vivo but in vitro. Did I get that wrong? Not the kind that takes place in glass, the kind that takes place in a living organism.

I for instance cannot take my pain meds too close to bed time because they will keep me up all night. This is sort of anomalous but not rare. Most people get sleepy. I could give example after example. I won't because they are too easy. Think of all the complications from taking drugs that a very few people have but are printed as possible side effects. That's all chemistry. How about how different folks react to stress. Chemisrty once again.

How many neuro peptides are there hundreds? thousands? Every organ in your body excretes hormones of some type even your muscles. All chemistry. It's all chemistry. Even what people refer to as God. This is a chemical state within them.

Scans have proved that a nun at prayer is doing the same thing metabolically, lighting up the same areas of their brain as a yogi in samadi. Chemistry once again. Weird dreams, OOB experiences, psychotic reactions: chemistry. Physical.


To quote Carlos Dwa. . . . "Even your most ethereal yearnings can be weighed upon the scales of my upright serpent.". . .


The scales being the left and right hemispheres of the brain and the upright serpent being the spine.
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[*] posted on 24-8-2010 at 21:05


it seems to me you answered your own questions, albeit in a confusing and convoluted way. the simple answer is this: MONEY period. end of line. if i can sell you five pills that will make you feel well perhaps even to the point of being able to go without meds for several days versus selling you a huge array of medications that 1: may or may not help your status, 2:ensure that you have to keep taking them without fail to receive any relief and 3: may require other meds to counteract the negative side affects, which do you think will line my pockets more? now, with that in mind, think about the people who examine patients and prescribe meds...U.S. govt and pharmaceutical companies included...is it more productive for them to get you in and out well and on your way or is it more so to keep you coming back? this is the number one reason we still have cancer and aids and m.s. and muscular dystrophy and a whole host of other "incurable" diseases. THE MONEY IS IN THE TREATMENT NOT THE CURE!! it is a cold, hard, sad fact but a fact nonetheless.
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Rogeryermaw
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[*] posted on 24-8-2010 at 21:16


Oh, and Nicodem? T.V. is awesome. it contains the simpsons! don't get me wrong, i could sleep many happy nights after destroying MTV studios and so many of the morons who advocate public idiocy with no accountability. but without tv i would have to entertain my wife more often and would get less lab time so it has some uses after all!
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Rogeryermaw
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[*] posted on 24-8-2010 at 21:29


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
"This is not my experience at all. In fact I just heard an expert on On Point the other week state that the opiates are absolutely one of the least harmful drugs you can use. Unless you are shooting shit into your veins in unsanitary conditions. That is a killer. The lower back pain is probably caused by inactivity. I have use thousands of hydrocondone with no such effects. But I keep active as I am able. "

Inactivity? I dream for the day, however I would like to hear the conditions of this major pain your speaking of. Where is it, causes of it ect... all of this is relevent to weather or not opiates would be effective. And no, in no way are opiates truely safe for you. The lest harmful drug I know of currently being perscribed for pain is Cannabinoids. Oddly enough its the most contriversal pain medication out there.


i won't even begin to pretend i know about pot's ability to help with pain but i do have a very good friend i grew up with who moved to colorado. he destroyed his bottom 3 vertebrae from a ladder accident and his doctor prescribed him medical mari. he doesn't claim extensive pain relief but when we speak on the phone i can tell a huge difference in his demeanor. as in "i'm still in pain but it's under control now." which is hard to understand. we both grew up in texas and there aren't many places you can get mari any cheaper so we both had our time with it but i can say i never thought it could help manage pain. i guess my old chum is a testament to the untapped medical properties of A FREAKIN PLANT!!! its a plant. sticks out of the ground. dirt, water, sun...but its illegal? gimme a effin break
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