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Trotsky
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Wow, AP as an igniter? That's up there on the list of really bad ideas, especially for a high AN-fuel and NC based propellant. The risk of
detonation would be awefully high, though maybe half a gram wouldn't be a strong enough detonator, I wouldn't want to be around to find out. AP
doesn't generate much heat at all, it certainly wouldn't ignite the grain.
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Hawkguy
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Quote: Originally posted by Trotsky  | | Wow, AP as an igniter? That's up there on the list of really bad ideas, especially for a high AN-fuel and NC based propellant. The risk of
detonation would be awefully high, though maybe half a gram wouldn't be a strong enough detonator, I wouldn't want to be around to find out. AP
doesn't generate much heat at all, it certainly wouldn't ignite the grain. |
Do you mean APNC? Not great idea.
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Trotsky
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Nah, the guy said he wanted to use acetone peroxide to ignite a propellant grain made of acetone-gelatinized NC blended with ammonium nitrate and corn
starch.
I don't know that a half gram of AP would detonate such a blend (maybe if the NC were very high quality, not sure), but I'm sure it wouldn't ignite
it- AP doesn't generate much heat despite making a lot of gas and being very brisant. Not that a detonation is ever a reasonable way to ignite
something.
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KesterDraconis
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I first heard about this substance when reading some from Black and Conant's "Practical Chemistry" about a year ago. I did a bit of research but
decided to hold off synthesis of any nitrocellulose until this year since I had other projects to work on at the time. This year, now that the weather
is good and I can get out in my amateur chemistry lab in the backyard once more, I decided to try it (also all the chemicals needed were now available
to me).
Lacking nitric acid I decided to nitrate my cellulose in potassium nitrate and sulfuric acid. After one batch which was more or less a failure (very
slow reaction), I used the ratios given by Bismuth on the first page of this thread, who credits them to someone named Mumbles. I kept the solution
below 20C as I mixed in the KNO3 and then added the cellulose. After letting the cellulose nitrate for 24 hours I then dried it out in a pan on a hot
plate turned to a low setting for a few hours. After this was done, little pieces I lit created a very nice flash and left very very little to no
residue.
My problem occurred when I stuffed about 10g of this nitrocellulose into a cardboard toilet paper tube, wrapped it in lots of tape, slightly buried
four inches in soft non-pebble filled ground, and then lit the fuse. Very little happened. I heard a slight pop and saw a little yellow flame but not
the boom I expected. I actually found a wad of nitrocellulose (about half the tubes contents) about a foot away from where I had left my little
"explosive" device, it was just sitting there smoldering slightly.
I don't know if some moisture was introduced at some point (I tried to keep this from happening), or if something else may have occurred which stopped
it from exploding. Is a fuse a bad method to ignite it if I want an explosion? Or was the way I contained it insufficient to provide the explosion I
expected or use up all the nitrocellulose? Is this just characteristic of nitrocellulose that wasn't sufficiently dried/got wet?
[Edited on 3-4-2015 by KesterDraconis]
[Edited on 3-4-2015 by KesterDraconis]
[Edited on 3-4-2015 by KesterDraconis]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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You simply miss the good detonator or the fairly big amount of NC to allow self confinement and D2D.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Hennig Brand
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From what I have seen, if it is highly nitrated and in the fibrous form, 10g is more than enough to detonate when simply lit by fuse,
if strongly confined (like in a borehole drilled into rock for instance). Weaker confinement and a detonator will get you there too.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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KesterDraconis
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Alright, I think I will first try stronger confinement (but still do my best to make it safe/relatively shrapnel free), and then try a good detonator.
The former is relatively easy, and while I am planning on making the latter, its still a project very much on the drawing board and probably will be
there another month (since I want to work it out safely and efficiently before I really go to work).
Thanks for the help, and I will report back with results as I get them!
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KesterDraconis
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Alright, so I tried again today with a new batch of NC. I used a fairly sturdy plastic container wrapped in many layers of duct tape as confinement
(certainly not as strong as a rock, but I tried to make it as strong as possible). In this I put 8g of NC and then ignited it electrically from a
distance (using an old christmas light, some wire, and a 6 volt lantern battery).
The result was a fairly satisfying bang, a bit louder than the sound of a high powered rifle firing. I couldn't find any NC left over as I did before,
but I still question whether or not I got detonation or simply rapid deflagaration. Looking back on a short video I took, I see a brief flash
immediately after the container initially pops open, and what looks to be pieces of burning NC ejected into the air in a couple frames. Hence my
question.
I also hit some with a hammer and caused some loud pops and ignition. Altogether I feel rather happy and satisfied about it, though I would like to
know whether or not you all think that my little bang was detonation or not (which I would like to achieve).
[Edited on 6-4-2015 by KesterDraconis]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Maybe if we see your video...we could tell more precisely.
But most likely I think is was a deflagration...this can easily go above the speed of sound (350m/s) with a good loud report (while detonation is
usually above mach 5 up to mach 30 for high speed detonatings stuffs).
Detonating NC should go to mach 20-23.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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ecos
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Why didnt u use a cap for NC?
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KesterDraconis
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I would rather not upload the video now. However, considering your comments I can pretty much assuredly say that it didn't detonate, but rather
deflagarated. The burning pieces, the pieces of plastic (from the bottle) and the speed of the gases on video, and the simple force (there was a small
wodden board under it, which is perfectly intact) were simply not great enough to indicate detonation from what I understand.
ecos , I didn't use a cap because I don't have access to one, pretty much as simple as that. I would like to use a primary to cause this stuff to
detonate easily, but I also don't really have much access to those, and I would rather not synthesize something like MEKP or TATP right now (even if
the former is moderately stable). I would rather get a bit more experience, get some better equipment, and then do so (perhaps in the next month or
two). I am basically working my way up, and in some ways working through history, since I first made black powder, and now this, and perhaps
nitroglycerin sometime in the future.
At some point though, if one more experiment with very strong confinement does not work (and I will definitely try hard to make it very very strong
this time), then I may try something else to get it to detonate. Right now though, I don't have access to my testing area (which is a field, a barn
with some cinder blocks against the wall serves as my "bunker"), so I will have to hold off any more experiments for a bit.
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NeonPulse
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Use the ground to tamp the NC. Just a small narrow hole with your power line right in the centre of the charge and compress dirt on top. Try not to
loosen the soil around it too much. That should give sufficient confinement and achieve the effect you are looking for. The harder the soil around the
NC the better.
BTW I really respect your "take it slow" attitude. You will certainly learn more than kewlishly trying to blow shit up, but I guess at some point you
will need a primary,especially for nitroglycerin. If you really wanted to emulate the old days then black powder will do it. Avoid TATP though, It's
got a pretty good track record of hurting people- even the careful ones.
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ecos
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How do you plan to make strong confinement ?
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KesterDraconis
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I believe I have had a success! I do not have any good video I can upload of my last couple tests, but I am fairly sure it did detonate in both cases.
I tried 12g in each charge, and followed the advice of NeonPulse on the first.
After the first charge went off there was a powerful thud from the hole, and dirt flew into the air. Inspecting the damaged yielded a nearly
completely destroyed container (many many pieces) and a much wider hole than before.
The second charge was above ground, packed very tightly in a fairly sturdy container. It gave off a much louder report than my first above ground test
(I can't really describe it, but I "felt" it), and debris flew a very good distance. An aluminum can I placed beside the charge was crumpled like
someone had stepped on it violently. (I didn't watch this test actually, since my container was thick enough I didn't want to get hit with anything)
Thanks for the help all!
| Quote: |
Avoid TATP though, It's got a pretty good track record of hurting people- even the careful ones.
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Will do!
[Edited on 18-4-2015 by KesterDraconis]
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ecos
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This is the only video I found on youtube that use flashpowder as detonator : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTYk5CHno3E
I don't know why it was not that strong ! the tree was just scratched!
@NeonPulse, can you share your detonators experience for NC ?
[Edited on 20-4-2015 by ecos]
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NeonPulse
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Good work! Only twice I've detonated NC. Mostly out of curiosity since it was said to be hard to get going and I'm always up for a challenge One was 10g of the microcrystalline NC I synthesised and one 8g batch of regular but
highly nitrated cotton.both times an overpowered cap was used. NC was some time ago 1.5g ETN and SADS. MCNC was 1.3g PETN-100mg silver azide and both
in some plastic conduit and buried somewhat into hard clay. Both results satisfied my curiosity there. For safety reasons I now do as much as possible
sub surface also the current political climate and terrorism threats in my country making loud explosions is not wise.
Having the NC wet is also supposed to make it easier to detonate by enabling the shockwave to transfer better than through the dry fibrous NC of low
density. This sounds plausible but probably in larger amounts though. I did see this mentioned in another NC thread around here somewhere with good
explanation on how exactly this works.
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Varmint
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I think you'll find once true detonation is achieved, things resembling the container no longer exist.
Remember, we're talking brisant energy released in such a brief amount of time that merely sitting on a witness plate is sufficient to badly dent, if
not blast holes clean though.
I achieved full detonation in a hard paper case I made from normal printing paper. The blast filled the air with what looked like a fog from the
safe viewing distance, but turned out to be tiny (grain of table salt and smaller) bits of the paper casing littering the ground around the blast
area. The most surprising part to me is these bits weren't charred or discolored, just torn into the tiniest bits imaginable.
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ecos
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What I understand that, NC detonation power and VOD is variable depending on detonator power !
I saw a lot of posts on internet for many people fail to detonate NC ! , all say it is very hard !
I shared a video in above posts for detonating NC using flashpowder ! it looks weird to me !
unfortunately, I can't synthesis PETN because I don't have pentaerythritol ! I also can't request it over internet.
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george76904
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Sorry if this is the wrong post to add this to, but has anyone used the microcrystalline cellulose that's available online to make nitrocellulose out
of? It seems like if you would want to make a bang that would work better than nitrated cotton. But before I buy it, has anyone tried it?
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Varmint
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George:
NeonPulse mentions it in the post directly above my previous post.
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Loptr
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Ordenblitz applied for a patent for MCNC
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1007&a...
Micro-crystalline cellulose nitrate(s)
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=25...
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george76904
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Wow do I feel dumb. I read this thread through and managed to completely skip that post. My bad
Thanks for the help,
Will
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ecos
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I have a question regarding confinement of NC using Hydraulic press : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqtdfb1dJ5I
would excess pressure detonate NC? any problems with NC sensitivity specially friction ?
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Bert
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http://www.osti.gov/scitech/servlets/purl/273797
See table III, page 14, data for a number of different explosives, gives you some ideas on relative friction sensitivity for a particular friction
testing machine using a particular sample of dry 11% NC.
This test showed the NC sample to require about twice the pressure to fire 1 in 10 tests as a sample of PETN.
Your results may (will!) vary. We can't know your materials and conditions-
If you decide to test, use a blast shield between yourself and press.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
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2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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ecos
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sounds horrible !
here is the table :
@12Kg we can get an explosion  , this means if i use 5 ton hydroulic press it is
guaranteed to detonate !. not nice to try it 
i read somewhere here in the forum , that adding water would make the detonation easier due to the detonation wave would go through water not fiber
air.
what about using desil oil instead ? i think it would increase the power !
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