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Author: Subject: cannabidiol to tetrahydrocannabinol
Nitrous2000
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[*] posted on 11-4-2019 at 13:40
cannabidiol to tetrahydrocannabinol


Hi Guys,

This is not a "how to convert one legal substance to another illegal substance" thread. The question is "can the heat associated with combustion lead to conversion of CBD to THC?

There has been a study that looked at simulated stomach contents as a possible way of conversion, but while theoretically possible, doesn't seem to be an issue. This is actually a Urine Drug Testing question.... to explain positive THC (including confirmation by the THC-COOH analyte) UDT results in known to be pure CBD products.

Thoughts?
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[*] posted on 11-4-2019 at 16:23


Maybe if your bong has methylene chloride and paratoluenesulphonic acid in it?





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Nitrous2000
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[*] posted on 11-4-2019 at 16:26


well, not exactly on point, or helpful but if there are comments that might be useful, please advise
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draculic acid69
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[*] posted on 11-4-2019 at 17:00


Doesn't cbd extract come from hemp which has very low level of THC not no THC thus explaining the THC result?
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S.C. Wack
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[*] posted on 11-4-2019 at 17:30


It may be a long wait since you reject answers you don't like. Pure CBD you say...but it looks like there is nothing you can show us that will convince anyone of the truth of it.

Are you sure you have the facts straight? Why would anyone smoke CBD? If someone smoked CBD, would they be using a device previously used for THC, or a CBD-dedicated unit? Was CBD tested by eating and taking the same drug tests? And so on and on. This feels like hundreds of other threads in this way.




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[*] posted on 11-4-2019 at 22:09


In theory it could be possible to carry out an intramolecular dehydration catalysed by H2SO4 at elevated temperature (140*C i think), this is used in the production of symetrical ethers such as diethyl ether, however i believe i recall there being an exception to the symetrical rule with regards to isobutylenes which is why tert butyl ethers are used for protection of alcohols.

Now the general rule with this is that elimination takes place at higher temperatures instead but given that the alcohol is phenolic, i dont think this should happen in this case.
The obvious issue is that neither your bong or stomach would be able to produce the conditions required for such an alkylation to take place, unless we are missing something and the reaction in question is somewhat helped along by the very heavily activated ring of the cannabidiol.

This is all kinda worthless conjecture with little evidence so i think it would be far more plausible for the dumb asses who did the urine tests to have not realized that both CBD and THC undergo the same metabolic bathway leading to oxydation of that methyl group to a carboxylic acid.
So what the test actually tested positively for was CBD-COOH not THC-COOH.

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[*] posted on 12-4-2019 at 04:24


Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
It may be a long wait since you reject answers you don't like.

You mean answers like this one ?
Quote: Originally posted by SWIM  
Maybe if your bong has methylene chloride and paratoluenesulphonic acid in it?

Most bong owners only use solvents such as dihydrogen monoxyde or triglycerides. Some of them also use sodium chloride for its abrasive properties.

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  

Why would anyone smoke CBD?

Well if you dont know maybe it's a bit early to be this agressive ?
CBD is being looked into to replace benzodiazepines, opiates, antiemetics without the associated effects of these medicines.
This by itself is a good reason to research the compound.

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  

And so on and on. This feels like hundreds of other threads in this way.

Not to me though the question maybe wasnt clear enough.
The metabolite lead that Assured Fish suggest is probably the answer to what OP had in mind.
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Nitrous2000
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[*] posted on 12-4-2019 at 06:07


sheesh guys,

not really trying to troll here... but i'm actually a clinician who specializes in drug toxicology. So, any reference to a bong is not helpful to me. The detailed response by Assured Fish is helpful and consistent with the literature looking at acid exposure in the GI track 'possibly' converting CBD to THC. The response by S Wack - not so much.

leaving all distraction off the basic question: can pure CBD (as evidenced by certificate of analysis) convert to THC when subjected to heat.

To Assured Fish. The CBDA would, i imagine fragment differently than THCA in tandem MS. Since the standard forensically is to do presumptive (screening) on the entire cannabinoid spectrum but definitive (confirm) testing is done only on THCA.

Anyone wanting to have a clinical/scientific discussion on THC/CBD in medical use are welcome to pose questions but "can I get high" won't be discussed. "is it psychoactive?" will be...

Thanks
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[*] posted on 12-4-2019 at 10:30


Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69  
Doesn't cbd extract come from hemp which has very low level of THC not no THC thus explaining the THC result?


just for the record, Hemp is more of a legal designation. A sativa plant with less than 0.3% THC is considered hemp, for DEA purposes, and is typically cultivated for fiber. It is legal and not subject to Federal Schedule 1 status.

There is no comment on other cannabinoids ie CBD.

As far as "trace THC" in "pure" CDB oil, I'm talking about CBD that has been certified as THC free.... ie has a certificate of analysis confirming what actually is in it.



[Edited on 12-4-2019 by Nitrous2000]
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[*] posted on 12-4-2019 at 11:32


Quote:
The question is "can the heat associated with combustion lead to conversion of CBD to THC?

The answer, IMO, would have to be no ─ and it's something that would be noticed, should it occur...

I've smoked high THC and high CBD varieties over the years and their effects, taste and aroma are always somewhat different.

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[*] posted on 12-4-2019 at 12:11


I have to agree with Hissingnoise, any significant conversion would have been noticed by now. But these tests can be exceedingly sensitive, so it's possible that enough could be converted for it to register (without causing intoxication). IIRC the major metabolites are different for CBD and THC, but I don't know what the UDT actually tests for.

I do know that heat and acid works, don't recall the paper that described it but a qualitative test (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) confirmed it. A milliliter or so of commercial CBD extract, a drop of sulfuric acid (perhaps 50% or so) and a bit of heat before neutralizing it with sodium carbonate.




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[*] posted on 12-4-2019 at 12:40


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
I have to agree with Hissingnoise, any significant conversion would have been noticed by now. But these tests can be exceedingly sensitive, so it's possible that enough could be converted for it to register (without causing intoxication). IIRC the major metabolites are different for CBD and THC, but I don't know what the UDT actually tests for.

I do know that heat and acid works, don't recall the paper that described it but a qualitative test (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) confirmed it. A milliliter or so of commercial CBD extract, a drop of sulfuric acid (perhaps 50% or so) and a bit of heat before neutralizing it with sodium carbonate.


actually, the confirmatory analyte is THCA. none other. The paper you might be referring to is a case of simulated gastric contents and CBD conversion. in vivo conditions, no conversion is the practical outcome. My hope was that a theoretical potential could be tested in the lab. Looks like we may simply do the test ourselves. Thanks for your feedback.
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[*] posted on 12-4-2019 at 12:57


If Acid is enough to cause conversion, could stomach acid be enough?
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[*] posted on 12-4-2019 at 13:03


Quote: Originally posted by Jackson  
If Acid is enough to cause conversion, could stomach acid be enough?


often the difference between in vivo and in vitro....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5744690/
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[*] posted on 12-4-2019 at 13:10


How was the purity of this pure CBD determined? GC?

Explanation of my and SWIM's posts might be met with blank stares by those who need it.

What are the sales figures for nicotine-free cigarettes? Maybe clove cigarettes are still smoked by someone...do the kids smoke aspirin too?




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Nitrous2000
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[*] posted on 12-4-2019 at 15:41


Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
How was the purity of this pure CBD determined? GC?

Explanation of my and SWIM's posts might be met with blank stares by those who need it.

What are the sales figures for nicotine-free cigarettes? Maybe clove cigarettes are still smoked by someone...do the kids smoke aspirin too?


might have been mistaken. Sorry. If you (or SWIM) have any reasonable process using what was originally suggested to cause that ring closure from CBD to THC, I apologize. Otherwise, I'll assume you were speaking out of your arse - with no desire to contribute to the OP's question.

For the record, the assays are done using LC- tandem MS. nicotine free cigs, are in the industry typically referred to as herbal cigarettes. My guess is what you know about cannabinoids is at best, as a personal user.

[Edited on 12-4-2019 by Nitrous2000]
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S.C. Wack
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[*] posted on 13-4-2019 at 05:02


It's as obvious now as it was before that many things are if not hidden, not clear, particularly in the absence of conclusive examination. A more interesting question is what if some analysts have said yes, but do so in such a way that it's not a particularly convincing defense of a positive UA, and other analysts say no?



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[*] posted on 13-4-2019 at 06:38


Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
It's as obvious now as it was before that many things are if not hidden, not clear, particularly in the absence of conclusive examination. A more interesting question is what if some analysts have said yes, but do so in such a way that it's not a particularly convincing defense of a positive UA, and other analysts say no?


That is always a challenge for a clinician advocating for the donor. As an example, the presence of 6-MAM in a sample was considered definitive evidence of heroin use... no if's, and's or but's. Except.... we have found a group of older pain patients being prescribed morphine who are also turning up with 6-mam positive reports. One question is in vivo or in vitro acetylation. Are these older men with heart disease we're giving low dose aspirin to? no pattern identified and frankly, a reluctance to try to hard to sort this out as it will make the MRO system of drug testing even more questionable in the context of opioids.

two similar (but now sorted out anomalies) UDT examples come to mind. The first is finding hydromorphone in trace amounts in morphine users and in finding hydromorphone up to 10-12% in codeine users. These have been published but the widespread use of urine drug tests in pain management has left many unanswered questions.
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[*] posted on 13-4-2019 at 08:10


It is said 6-MAM can be made with just acetic acid and morphine, i.e. monoacetylation is easy. Unlike morphine IMHO if you want proof you'll have to smoke CBD yourself, preferentially with other subjects. It can be said for certain that 99% of the studies on the effects of CBD do not involve combustion or vapor, and what is known about the safety of smoking CBD is based on hashish, so it's possible that different CBD products produced at different temperatures and atmospheres have bad effects without THC or some other component, and smoking it is not wise.



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[*] posted on 14-4-2019 at 09:06


Quote: Originally posted by Nitrous2000  




If you (or SWIM) have any reasonable process using what was originally suggested to cause that ring closure from CBD to THC, I apologize. Otherwise, I'll assume you were speaking out of your arse - with no desire to contribute to the OP's question.

[Edited on 12-4-2019 by Nitrous2000]


Few things more pathetic than when a child trying to pose as a professional tries to sound 'all grown up' by referring to himself in the third person.

I'm sure the OP would agree with that. If he wasn't a child trying to sound, 'all grown up'.

Obviously, you're talking out of your ass since you haven't bothered to check the literature in any meaningful way.
The potential for conversion of CBD to THC during smoking using some traditional smoking practices was examined before you were in diapers. I realize that's only about 12 to 14 year ago, but it actually dates decades farther back than that

Try cracking a book once in a while.

And no, I won't tell you what, or where.

You're the clinical professional with the pompous attitude, so you must be such an ultrasupergenius that doing it yourself should be a snap.

Have a nice day, kid.













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[*] posted on 14-4-2019 at 10:09


Quote: Originally posted by SWIM  
Quote: Originally posted by Nitrous2000  




If you (or SWIM) have any reasonable process using what was originally suggested to cause that ring closure from CBD to THC, I apologize. Otherwise, I'll assume you were speaking out of your arse - with no desire to contribute to the OP's question.

[Edited on 12-4-2019 by Nitrous2000]


Few things more pathetic than when a child trying to pose as a professional tries to sound 'all grown up' by referring to himself in the third person.

I'm sure the OP would agree with that. If he wasn't a child trying to sound, 'all grown up'.

Obviously, you're talking out of your ass since you haven't bothered to check the literature in any meaningful way.
The potential for conversion of CBD to THC during smoking using some traditional smoking practices was examined before you were in diapers. I realize that's only about 12 to 14 year ago, but it actually dates decades farther back than that

Try cracking a book once in a while.

And no, I won't tell you what, or where.

You're the clinical professional with the pompous attitude, so you must be such an ultrasupergenius that doing it yourself should be a snap.

Have a nice day, kid.











ok.... here's something to think about. In my line of work... when dealing with a person behaving like an arsehole, you should always consider drug or alcohol use.... after all, a drug problem is treatable.... being an arsehole is forever! too bad... so sad ;)

as an aside, if you were as smart as you think you are, you'd know that you're on shaky ground when you jump to conclusions. I would bet that regardless of how far you've gone in your 'education', I'm miles ahead of you.... and that's formal education... not careers without college sort of education but that's up to you to deal with....

[Edited on 14-4-2019 by Nitrous2000]
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[*] posted on 14-4-2019 at 12:06


Drugs/alcohol may be more effect than cause of personality; maybe you too are only looking so deeply...so...this is what happens when someone without a gold star for social grace feels the need to say how they don't like the response...SWIM you're barking up the wrong tree. The question is unresolved as far as UA-detectable traces go, and really with both CBD sales and employer drug testing it's an experiment that needs doing...I wouldn't expect people selling CBD in smoking formulations to do the research.



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[*] posted on 14-4-2019 at 12:38


Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
Drugs/alcohol may be more effect than cause of personality; maybe you too are only looking so deeply...so...this is what happens when someone without a gold star for social grace feels the need to say how they don't like the response...SWIM you're barking up the wrong tree. The question is unresolved as far as UA-detectable traces go, and really with both CBD sales and employer drug testing it's an experiment that needs doing...I wouldn't expect people selling CBD in smoking formulations to do the research.


There is some truth in the cause/effect question. As far as the ability of social media to convey attitude.... it isn't very good at it.

Around the issues of legally available cannabis products in America and Canada, the onus will be on the vendor to insure that what they are selling is, chemically as advertised. This means 3rd party certificates of analysis with independent proficiency testing.

The really dicey area right now is in fitness to operate a motor vehicle. The laws in this are are totally without scientific backing. A regular user who abstains for a week will have serum/urinary THCCOOH levels above legal limits in virtually all states. AT least in Canada, there will need to be a preliminary failure of a field sobriety test BEFORE having probable grounds for invasive testing. Relationship to intoxication has not been determined (only alcohol). The scientific field is wide open.

Thanks for your comments, S.C.Wack.
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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 14:50


Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
It is said 6-MAM can be made with just acetic acid and morphine, i.e. monoacetylation is easy. Unlike morphine IMHO if you want proof you'll have to smoke CBD yourself, preferentially with other subjects. It can be said for certain that 99% of the studies on the effects of CBD do not involve combustion or vapor, and what is known about the safety of smoking CBD is based on hashish, so it's possible that different CBD products produced at different temperatures and atmospheres have bad effects without THC or some other component, and smoking it is not wise.


In fact, diacetyl morphine is easy to make. 6-MAM is made by in vivo hydrolysis of heroin. depending on how the sample is contaminated, there will be mono, di and even tri acetyl codeine. The DEA actually can fingerprint heroin samples where the relative proportions of these analytes define the geographic area of manufacture. But diacetyl morphine is so short lived, we virtually always assay the 6-mam first metabolite.
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[*] posted on 15-4-2019 at 18:09


Quote: Originally posted by Nitrous2000  
In fact, diacetyl morphine is easy to make.

Not with acetic acid.




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