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Author: Subject: Research question about burning metals and their flashes and colors
BenkeiDNA
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[*] posted on 4-2-2020 at 02:53
Research question about burning metals and their flashes and colors


I have a private interest for the environment, and have become fascinated with metals. Together with a engineer i will be making a report about metal reactions etc. I dont have a background in chemistry or engineering myself. The report will try to show how and why certain things cannot flash and behave certain ways when burning, and show the limited, if limited, possibilities with some reactions and colors of molten metals etc, is the best way i can describe it, what it will be about.

So i would like to get you guys take on these questions that i have in mind for my report.

1. Can iron somehow in a fire below 1538C under any conditions without any powder/material mixtures added melt?, like for example in a hypothetical scenario if there was strong 35 mph winds that through a large hole turned the building into a large blast furnace. Since iron can be made molten in a small furnace only 12 feet high, one that was several stories high with plenty of fuel and air would maybe have some effect on the fire so that some amounts of molten iron could be produced by the fire touching the steel, this i dont know if it is true or not, but i would like for us to find out, how powerful would the winds haft to be to have any effect on the fire on the steel in a scenario like this?, would 35 mph be enough?, and if the winds where much lower, maybe 10 mph, would they then have zero effect on the fire?. And the same question for aluminium in a fire below 1200C. I am told that temperature is a terrible way to think of heat transfer. That a 1500C fire means nothing to a chemist. That what matters is how much energy is being produced, how quickly its being transferred, where its being transferred to, and how quickly the object that is collecting that energy is dissipating that energy. That a chemist would try to figure out the heat capacity of the system (how much energy it takes to raise the temperature by one degree), then calculate how much energy is being produced. If it’s a closed system, this is easy. If it’s an open system then you need to factor in Newtonian cooling. Once this is all factored in, then you can hypothesize the temperature of the object you wish to study. Explanation of how if you had enough cotton balls and oxygen, you could make iron melt, this scenario i know is true. The rate of the combustion reaction is the determination of how much energy is produced (and thus temperature of the surroundings). Steel melts at a lower temperature (~1300C). And explanation of if much oxygen instead was pulled out of the air, for example, If within minutes the oxygen in a fire zone is depleted, and the pace of burning was regulated by the area available for venting the hot exhaust gases, and the area available for the entry of fresh air, how it then would make the melting of iron extremely unlikely, and also write about if the same then is true for aluminium even at its lower melting point then iron. As i understand it a flame temp of 1000C will not produce a temp of 1000C in anything it contacts without very prolonged exposure. The greater the thermal conductivity of the object exposed to flame the longer it will take to heat it up. If fires for exampel dies out after 20 minutes in one place, then it would be hard for the fire to produce any molten metals i think.

2. If you have an unusual flame visible within a office fire, a very bright white flame, as opposed to the typical yellow or orange surrounding regular flames, this would suggest that some type of metal is burning, i know aluminum will burn, but in normal fires it usually melts instead because the metal surface is protected by an oxide layer that must be breeched before ignition can take place. Aluminium oxide melts at 2072C that typical office fires will not reach. I cant think of how magnesium in a regular office fire could explain a very bright white flame like this. I am told that metallic magnesium can be difficult to ignite depending on it thickness. That a magnesium rod, about 1 cm in diameter, will not ignite in a Bunsen burner flame, even with prolonged heating. Magnesium burns to produce magnesium oxide. That product is quite inert by normal conditions. It does not flash nor will it burn, i am told. Would it maybe require some exotic powder or material to create such a strong bright white flame?, at least we should be able to rule out a couple of metals that could be behind this, i dont think iron, magnesium or aluminium could be behind it, and maybe it would need some very high temperature?, and if there where white plumes of smoke coming from it, could that be explained by some kind of reaction?, or is the fact that white plumes of smoke only can be explained by paper and paint burning and nothing else?.

3. If we look at a scenario in where there is some kind of explosive impact that had broken some of the aluminum in the building into small granules and powder and chemical reactions with hydrocarbon or water vapors might have occurred, this would still not change the silver color of any molten aluminum into a orange color while it was falling in the air i think as i am told by foundries that work with aluminium that ""Aluminum when taken past the melting point will have a very dull red glow to it but as you stated, it returns to silver very quickly. At no point does it resemble molten iron or steel, which is almost yellow in color and throws a considerable amount of sparks. Aluminum sparks which are small particles of aluminum burning should always be silver or white, no orange color." but would it still not make any flashes as regular Al wont do in a fire is the question, and what would happen if such a Al powder that was mixed with hydrocarbon/water vapors got mixed with molten iron and started to fall down in the air?, would it flash or not. The flashes of powder aluminium or sparks occur when the small particles burn (or oxidize) in the air. Similar to sparklers used for special events. A sparkler consists of a gunpowder tye of material mixed with powdered metal and molded with wax or a similar material. As it burns, the burning metal sparks give the sparklet effect. But could such sparks occur from the mixture of it in the molten iron?. We can look at three scenarios here, regular aluminium alone beeing melted, the aluminium powder beeing created by an explosive impact and how it could behave in a fire alone and when falling in the air and then how the Al powder would react and behave and look when mixed with molten iron, even if molten iron should not be present in a office fire we still look at these scenarios with the iron in this way.

4. When you have flashes from metals that are burning/melting, how often should you see the flashes, and what will the duration of the flashes be?, can any regular metals not in powder form when molten flash 6 times in lets say 8 seconds?, with the longest duration of one flash beeing close to lets say one second 0.90s?, is there any general information regarding this that could tell us what one should expect regarding flashes?. The likelihood of certain metal powders making flashes under the right conditions, together with the unlikelihood of regular metals that are burning or melting making flashes i will have included in my report. I know that iron dont flash, and that magnesium cant mix with molten iron in a fire and flash from it, and that regular aluminum that is not in powder form dont flash.





[Edited on 4-2-2020 by BenkeiDNA]

[Edited on 4-2-2020 by BenkeiDNA]
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BenkeiDNA
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[*] posted on 4-2-2020 at 08:55


In extreme cases, for example in the case of a well-ventilated fire with a chimney effect (or the 35 mph wind effect i said before), the fire temperature, which is normally 800-1000 degrees, may rise to a few hundred degrees more i was thinking, if the fire is directly on the steel, it might make some molten iron i was thinking?, but if the fire only last lets say 20 min, it might be much more unlikely?.

And If there were strong winds of 35 mph at high altitude, and a molten material and its sparks fell out of a window down through the air, then should not these 35 mph winds make this material and its sparks travel sharply to the left or right so that it was not possible for the material to fall straight down a straight line?.

[Edited on 4-2-2020 by BenkeiDNA]
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SWIM
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[*] posted on 4-2-2020 at 18:36




Its unusual that your 'interest in the environment' relates mainly to the burning of multi-story buildings after explosive impacts.

Sounds more like you're doing a report on how you think 9/11 was an inside job to me.




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This sounds like the best idea since putting ortho tricresyl phosphate in Ginger Jake.
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BenkeiDNA
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[*] posted on 5-2-2020 at 02:35


Quote: Originally posted by SWIM  


Its unusual that your 'interest in the environment' relates mainly to the burning of multi-story buildings after explosive impacts.

Sounds more like you're doing a report on how you think 9/11 was an inside job to me.


The explosion is about aluminium powder beeing formed, and i wrote a detailed question about it, it has nothing to with how some building did you did not collapse. You dont need to bring any political views into this, leave that outside of this thread.
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eesakiwi
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[*] posted on 5-2-2020 at 05:32


Take into account the jet fuel mist dropping down the elevator shafts & exploding and the blast furnace effect thereafter.

Also take into effect is that the plane did hit floors that contained the computer & lights UPS system.
Google for images of 8 foot high banks of Lead acid batterys that took up more than one floor.
The energy expended in these batterys, the temp that Lead melts at & its colour given off when molten & what other metals are mixed in with the Lead before & after its melting.
Also lights phase/frequency shift & its effect on CCD sensors & the resulting image as seen on various screens.
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SWIM
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[*] posted on 5-2-2020 at 16:14


It is clear your question is entirely about how 'some building' did or didn't collapse.

Your whole line of questioning reeks of the nanoparticle thermite 9/11 conspiracy theories which have plagued the internet for years.

And you didn't write a long detailed question about it.

You wrote a long, rambling series of questions, many of which are totally unclear as to what you're even talking about.

"Can any regular metals not in powder form when molten flash 6 times in lets say 8 seconds?"

WTF? And how about all those metals which ARE in powder form when they're molten? Not concerned about all of those?

And this is all for a report you're making with an engineer? An engineer who can't answer these questions for you?
Must be a real crackerjack engineer by gum.

As for your reference to political views. What political views are you referring to?

The only political view I see here is your ill-concealed belief in the conspiracy theory that aluminum and iron nanoparticles were used to form an exotic explosive which was used to destroy the World Trade Center.

You're interested in the environment, but only the part that concerns the reactions of aluminum and iron in multi story office building fires that happened just after explosive impacts which released large amounts of hydrocarbon fuels.

You're fascinated by metals, but only metals which happen to be burning in a multi story office building fire that happened just after an explosive impact (And includes LOTS of hydrocarbon fuels).

Apparently your not very helpful engineer friend is also fascinated only by metals which happen to be burning in a multi story office building fire that happened after an explosive impact that released lots of hydrocarbon fuel.

Come on, admit it. There is no engineer, there is no report, and you're just trying to get support for your belief that WTC was destroyed by a vast conspiracy using exotic explosives.

If this is not the case, why are you here asking badly phrased questions when you have an engineer at your disposal who's helping you with your report?

Why don't you ask him if metals which aren't powders when they're molten can flash say 6 times in 8 seconds?


See, unfortunately the whole field of studying reactions of metals burning or melting in very high multi-story office buildings which have suffered explosive impacts and are now on fire and full of jet fuel AND have a large hole in their sides and definitely aren't the WTC is a rather narrow one.
There probably aren't all that many people on this site who got their degree in that.











Ebay says they need to get their hands on my bank account if I want to keep selling there.
This sounds like the best idea since putting ortho tricresyl phosphate in Ginger Jake.
I'm walking while I can still walk straight.




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[*] posted on 6-2-2020 at 12:18


Aaaand I’m afraid that’s a wrap



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