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Author: Subject: HHO Flame Generator for Glaswork
EliasExperiments
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[*] posted on 13-5-2020 at 01:41
HHO Flame Generator for Glaswork


In this video I tried to make a flame from my HHO generator in order to be able to work with glas that has a high melting point:

https://youtu.be/Q7eQARplYJE

However as you can see the flame is too small to really melt some glas. Has anybody ever tried something similar and got it to work? Like how can I increase the flame, without the HHO generator overheating completly?
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earpain
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[*] posted on 13-5-2020 at 03:53


Quote: Originally posted by EliasExperiments  
In this video I tried to make a flame from my HHO generator in order to be able to work with glas that has a high melting point:

https://youtu.be/Q7eQARplYJE

However as you can see the flame is too small to really melt some glas. Has anybody ever tried something similar and got it to work? Like how can I increase the flame, without the HHO generator overheating completly?


The last chapter of this book published in 1957 is called The Manipulation of Silica and it's all about using Oxy/Hydrogen to work scientific quartz. There's a lot of very specific tips/tricks.
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Chemetix
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[*] posted on 13-5-2020 at 15:45


"However as you can see the flame is too small to really melt some glas. Has anybody ever tried something similar and got it to work? Like how can I increase the flame, without the HHO generator overheating completly? "

Problem with these electrically powered gas generators is they are never going to be powerful enough. Most household electric sockets can handle about 2000W. Even if you were to get complete conversion of electricity into gas and then the gas releases exactly the same energy back as a flame, 2000W is a tiny amount of power when it come to glass work. 8 to 10kW is a rough amount of power to work most glass for the fabrication of laboratory equipment and apparatus, and for silica glass it will require even more.

Using an oxy propane welding torch or a cutting head (no need for the oxy purge lever to be used here) will do as a beginners glass working torch. Even silica can be worked with this set up. Be prepared for the need to protect your eyes, quartz gets intensely bright. A shade 5 and above will be needed.

Quartz will transmit IR light down the length from where it's being worked, so be careful not to hold the cold end in your hand, the light leaving the end of the tube can burn you quite unexpectedly.
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EliasExperiments
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[*] posted on 13-5-2020 at 20:45


Okay very interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Good to know I guess... Thanks for the insights!
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B(a)P
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[*] posted on 14-5-2020 at 01:32


Quote: Originally posted by EliasExperiments  
In this video I tried to make a flame from my HHO generator in order to be able to work with glas that has a high melting point:

https://youtu.be/Q7eQARplYJE



That thing looks terrifying.......
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Mateo_swe
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[*] posted on 24-5-2020 at 02:11


I think you need one of these HHO torches with built in flashback arrestor.
A lot of different ones on ebay.
Maybe you can figure out how the flashback mechanism works and construct some DIY variant.
If the flame travels back to the HHO generator you would have a bigger explosion but i assume you know this.
This HHO torch i found on a quick search on ebay, its about 40 Euros.

s-l500.jpg - 18kB
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densest
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[*] posted on 22-6-2020 at 10:17


Are you trying to work borosilicate (Pyrex, etc.) or quartz? For boro, propane/oxygen is the accepted flame. H/O for quartz, yes. Acetylene won't work.

I don't know what you're trying to do. I've done work with borosilicate & a tiny bit with quartz. For a good result, precautions and knowledge are necessary:

Please, please read some flameworking texts. White hot glass is not forgiving.

GET EYE PROTECTION!!!!! Not dark glasses, not a welder's mask. Get glasses or a mask specifically designed for flameworking. The proper lenses block UV & IR & the Na yellow. Borosilicate or quartz when melted throw out enough UV and IR to burn your retinas quickly. Lenses for glassblowing won't work - soft glass melts at a much lower temperature.

In the US, it's pretty easy to go to a welding supply store and buy a tank of oxygen. EBay has oxygen and propane regulators. For small amounts of O2, big box hardware/building/homemaker (Lowes, Home Depot) sell very small oxygen tanks. Propane for outdoor grills, etc. is easy. I don't know about Europe.

Again in the US the most common glassworking torch comes from National (3B I think).
The "Little Torch"(tm) is versatile for small (5mm, say) work.
There are specific procedures for lighting and turning off a torch. Use them - read the books.

If you use propane, make sure that your fuel hose is (US) "type T". Welding hose designed for acetylene cracks when exposed to propane.

How do you plan to anneal your work? It's really frustrating to finish a piece which shatters the next day.

I hope this is useful. I'm not trying to scare you off, but it would be tragic if you lost your vision or got badly burned. It would be very regrettable if you put in a lot of work and money and didn't get what you wanted because you didn't know the technique involved.
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wg48temp9
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[*] posted on 23-6-2020 at 02:02


Quote: Originally posted by densest  
Are you trying to work borosilicate (Pyrex, etc.) or quartz? For boro, propane/oxygen is the accepted flame. H/O for quartz, yes. Acetylene won't work.

I don't know what you're trying to do. I've done work with borosilicate & a tiny bit with quartz. For a good result, precautions and knowledge are necessary:

Please, please read some flameworking texts. White hot glass is not forgiving.

GET EYE PROTECTION!!!!! Not dark glasses, not a welder's mask. Get glasses or a mask specifically designed for flameworking. The proper lenses block UV & IR & the Na yellow. Borosilicate or quartz when melted throw out enough UV and IR to burn your retinas quickly. Lenses for glassblowing won't work - soft glass melts at a much lower temperature.


Good advice protect your eyes and face.

My understanding is: a major problems is the heat radiation over heats the cornea of your eyes because of their very limited blood supply, resulting in cataracts.

Why can you not use oxy acetylene to work quartz? Its hot enough or is it partially reduced to silicon?

[Edited on 6/23/2020 by wg48temp9]




i am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.

Thank goodness for Fleming and the fungi.
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Chemetix
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[*] posted on 24-6-2020 at 01:24


Main reason to not use acetylene for quartz is it's too hot, it will sublimate the quartz and then deposit it on the cooler sections where it makes bloom. It's a mess to get rid of and the best thing is avoid creating it.

If you are working small quartz, maybe 5mm dia tube, you can get away with wearing two pairs of sunglasses and not get too close to it. It's not perfect but if you are a beginner it's something you can do to see what it's like working quartz. Welders brazing goggles of shade 5 to shade 8 will handle up to 20mm quartz work, but you are getting some serious heat come off that thing so you'll want to only do it for a short burst then cool down.

I work quartz up to about 50mm and it's a bit too much to be close to for any length of time at those diameters. The amount of infrared is enough to get through my shade 5 neotherm lenses as well as my didymium lenses. After an hour or so you can feel the eyes getting a bit dry and tired. I've recently ordered a set of gold mirror coated shade 5 green welders lenses to take the transmission down even further. I've used my welders helmet and set it to shade 9 but in a helmet the heat is a bit too uncomfortable to be able to work for very long.

I add this just to give you a practical guide to the kind of eyeware needed for the kind of work you might want to do with quartz.



[Edited on 24-6-2020 by Chemetix]
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[*] posted on 24-6-2020 at 04:49


Wow, that is amazing, I took glassblowing back in college (along with alchemy and dinosaur biology labs), but we never covered quartz, although I have had a few items made of it over the years. I remember how tough is can be to do normal borosilicate work, so if quartz is as tough as I hear, it must be challenging, and the IR safety issues are new to me. But I will saw that quartz can do some things that are great, like transmit UV and handle temperature changes that are huge. I think one professor burned Mg in a silica crucible inside a block of dry ice once. It can also handle boiling sulfuric acid, which can weaken glass over a long time. It's amazing how clan glassware is after handling that, the dirt all just oxidizes and the glass gleams.
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earpain
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[*] posted on 30-7-2020 at 08:59


And if that weren't amazing enough, we also depend every day on these things:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator
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[*] posted on 9-8-2020 at 07:03


I've made a pretty decent hydrogen/oxygen torch+generator. Continuous operation about 24 V/50 A=1200 W, could be used at 100 A as well but this would cause overheating of the electrolyte after a while. I'd say I had about twice the flame you show in the video.

It keeps exploding because your nozzle is too big/your gas generation is too low. You must keep the gas velocity faster than the flame speed(which is insanely fast for hydrogen/oxygen). This also means it's a pretty bad idea to shut off the generation while the flame is burning. I always extinguish it before turning off the supply.

I've thought about ways of increasing the heat dissipation of a cell. The best option seems to be circulating the electrolyte and cooling it separately from the cell. It's a little tricky since the electrolyte is usually sodium hydroxide which unfortunately rules out aluminum heat exhangers which would have been convenient otherwise. So if you could fabricate a heat exchanger from electrolyte resistant material, it should be quite simple. If it's taken into account in the cell design, you wouldn't even need a pump. You could either let heat convection take care of it, or even more efficient, make the gas pull electrolyte with it, and separate them at a later point. Do note that the entire system would need to be pressurized.

The easiest heat exchanger would probably be a long spiral tube submerged in cool water. Ideally a liquid/liquid stainless steel plate heat exchanger.

This is all assuming you have the means to deliver enough electrical energy of course. You're not gonna get more heat at the torch than you put electricity into it. Probably gonna take a good 3-4 kW at least to get satisfactory results, which is pushing it even for a welding supply, not to mention your house fuses lol.
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[*] posted on 9-8-2020 at 07:28


Hi,
My limited experience is that with propane-oxygen torch you can work quartz tubes up to 20 mm diameter.
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[*] posted on 9-8-2020 at 07:54


Quote: Originally posted by Junk_Enginerd  
I
It keeps exploding because your nozzle is too big/your gas generation is too low. You must keep the gas velocity faster than the flame speed(which is insanely fast for hydrogen/oxygen). This also means it's a pretty bad idea to shut off the generation while the flame is burning. I always extinguish it before turning off the supply.


That explains why some people use hyperdermic needles or ball pump needles. Due to the speed of oxy hydrogen

[Edited on 9-8-2020 by symboom]




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