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Author: Subject: Most toxic compound OTC?
G-Coupled
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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 03:43


Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II  

Heroin is extremely toxic particularly if you are not used to it. It's not exactly over the counter but if you were to ask the low life drug dealer to stand the far side of a counter when they are selling it to you it is.

Yob


Not really that 'toxic' IMO - more of a case of 'the dose makes the poison'. It often takes 100mg or more to kill an opiate naive person AFAIK.
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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 07:14


Quote: Originally posted by G-Coupled  
Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II  

Heroin is extremely toxic particularly if you are not used to it. It's not exactly over the counter but if you were to ask the low life drug dealer to stand the far side of a counter when they are selling it to you it is.

Yob


Not really that 'toxic' IMO - more of a case of 'the dose makes the poison'. It often takes 100mg or more to kill an opiate naive person AFAIK.


Also, Can one slip it into a drink? Or it must be IV, because few ml's of plain air injected into bloodstream is also lethal, isn't it?




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Refinery
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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 07:35


Many drugs have surprisingly small lethal dosages for the uninitiated. Even few tens of mg of pure product can cause complications that lead to death or permanent damage if untreated.

And not speaking of the really hc ones, like fentanyl. Carfentanil is pretty much a contact poison.

A second tier question could be, what is the most toxic compound that can be made without special skill from otc materials. I would vote Na/K Cyanide.
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Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 08:13


Injecting air isn't advisable for anyone, but a few milliliters won't hurt. This myth comes from the famous caisson disease, but in the case of sudden decompression the blood is (over) saturated with nitrogen, which is not, or less, the case under normal conditions.

Under normal conditions air will quickly dissolve in the blood, or at least a couple milliliters will.
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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 08:49


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Injecting air isn't advisable for anyone, but a few milliliters won't hurt. This myth comes from the famous caisson disease, but in the case of sudden decompression the blood is (over) saturated with nitrogen, which is not, or less, the case under normal conditions.

Under normal conditions air will quickly dissolve in the blood, or at least a couple milliliters will.

I have a port canule implanted in my chest for medical use, and on occasion I started an infusion while forgetting to allow the drip to run to the end of the tube before.
So it must be around, lets say 3-5ml of air that suddenly enter the bloodstream.
You feel actually nothing, but I can hear it bubbling directly into my chest and ears, and it sounds funny.
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G-Coupled
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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 09:50


Quote: Originally posted by TheMrbunGee  
Quote: Originally posted by G-Coupled  
Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II  

Heroin is extremely toxic particularly if you are not used to it. It's not exactly over the counter but if you were to ask the low life drug dealer to stand the far side of a counter when they are selling it to you it is.

Yob


Not really that 'toxic' IMO - more of a case of 'the dose makes the poison'. It often takes 100mg or more to kill an opiate naive person AFAIK.


Also, Can one slip it into a drink? Or it must be IV, because few ml's of plain air injected into bloodstream is also lethal, isn't it?


As others have mentioned, it's pretty much a myth that small air bubbles are lethal when injected - it would take a pretty huge and unrealistic air embolism to kill someone.

And Heroin can't really be slipped into a drink for the same effects due to it's very poor oral bioavailability (<10-15%) and that it's absorbed as regular Morphine (which is around 2.4x less potent than Heroin) due to extensive first pass metabolism.

So, practically you'd have to drink around 2.5g of Heroin to have the same effect as 100mg does administered IV.

[Edited on 25-5-2020 by G-Coupled]
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Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 12:25


Wikipedia states oral bio-availability to be >35%, compared to 46% for inhaled (highest bio-availablity, higher than IV). Heroin is metabolized to morphine anyway. What you are talking about sounds like the "rush" effect of heroin to me, rather than the bio-available morphine which is the actual toxic component of heroin.

Apparently high oral dosages of heroin give a higher bio-availability in naive patients than the same amount of oral morphine does.

So lets assume 200 mg of morphine is deadly for a naive patient, 200 mg of oral heroin should also be deadly, or even less, as it is more available than morphine. It doesn't matter whether you administer IV or orally, as the delay of the oral route is only about half an hour, while the half-live of morphine is 2-3 hours.

Heroin Wiki

Overdose morphine


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G-Coupled
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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 12:44


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Wikipedia states oral bio-availability to be >35%, compared to 46% for inhaled (highest bio-availablity, higher than IV)...


Wouldn't the bioavailability of IV Heroin be virtually 100%?
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Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 14:01


Morphine and 6-MAM are not active in the blood, so no. If the definition of bioavailability would be serum concentration, yes, but in the case of opiates serum concentrations are not that relevant.
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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 14:31


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Morphine and 6-MAM are not active in the blood, so no. If the definition of bioavailability would be serum concentration, yes, but in the case of opiates serum concentrations are not that relevant.


So what's the numbers on the bioavailability of IV Heroin?

Also, Wikipedia states the bioavailability of the Methadone as being 100% which seems to contradict what you wrote regarding the bioavailability of opiates/opioids.

And I'm pretty much absolutely positive that IV Heroin has a much greater effect than when it is vaporised.

[Edited on 25-5-2020 by G-Coupled]
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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 15:32


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Injecting air isn't advisable for anyone, but a few milliliters won't hurt. This myth comes from the famous caisson disease, but in the case of sudden decompression the blood is (over) saturated with nitrogen, which is not, or less, the case under normal conditions.

Under normal conditions air will quickly dissolve in the blood, or at least a couple milliliters will.


I read into it and about 300ml will kill quite surely, but as little as 20 ml can be lethal, if it goes to the "right" place. And any amount can be dangerous, but yeah, it is way less dangerous as my grandmother used to tell me when I was little. :D

So 300mg of air IV can kill, which is actually less than heroin. Deadly stuff. :D




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[*] posted on 25-5-2020 at 15:57


300ml! :D
Oh wow who would even inject that amount without having a definite intention to kill in mind?
Deadly OTC air, we should ban it, or at least let the people pay taxes on it :o

I think its the vena subclavia in my case, and that really is a major vene .
And as said, 5ml of air, that only resulted in bubbling in my chest and ears... but to be honest, that is quite a scary thing when you have it the first time, I was quite shocked...
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[*] posted on 26-5-2020 at 12:24


If we're talking about OTC compund to be easily made, for me nitrogen mustard wins. Just purchase triethanolamine and chlorinate it. The way how it acts is beyond traditional poisons.
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[*] posted on 26-5-2020 at 12:43


Nicotine solution



I'm French so excuse my language
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unionised
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[*] posted on 26-5-2020 at 13:17


In terms of "the chemical that kills most people" ethyl alcohol probably wins.
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[*] posted on 26-5-2020 at 13:17


Quote: Originally posted by brubei  
Nicotine solution


Nicotine has already been mentioned - it's not nearly as toxic to humans as was thought for many years.
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[*] posted on 14-6-2020 at 04:48


Quote: Originally posted by Refinery  
Many drugs have surprisingly small lethal dosages for the uninitiated. Even few tens of mg of pure product can cause complications that lead to death or permanent damage if untreated.

And not speaking of the really hc ones, like fentanyl. Carfentanil is pretty much a contact poison.


Indeed. Some perspective on lethal doseage (see image):

https://www.labconco.com/articles/the-problem-with-fentanyl

Quote: Originally posted by Refinery  
A second tier question could be, what is the most toxic compound that can be made without special skill from otc materials. I would vote Na/K Cyanide.


NaF + H2SO4?

[Edited on 14-6-2020 by Eddie Current]
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[*] posted on 14-6-2020 at 06:54


How about Salvinorin A?
It is the main active psychotropic molecule in Salvia divinorum, that are legally sold and grown in many parts of the world.
Salvinorin A is active at doses as low as 200 µg.
LSD is active in about 20–30 µg doses but arent found in nature and isnt available legally.
And one can easily extract the Salvinorin A from the salvia D. plant and make a huge dose.
I dont know if there are any LD50 figures for Salvinorin A.
Some derivatives are ten times stronger than salvinorin A with an active dose of about 20µg.
Thats some potent stuff.
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[*] posted on 14-6-2020 at 07:09


Salvinorin is potent but as you said there's basically no data that I've seen on its toxicity so it really isn't relevant to this thread. I am still voting cyanide. While HF is scary as fuck I think it's an order of magnitude less toxic than cyanide. That said, ketene is actually somewhat otc, no? Not OTC enough to produce a useful amount with no knowledge or equipment, but probably OTC enough to kill yourself by accident.
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[*] posted on 14-6-2020 at 11:27


Ketene could be actually easier to synthesize than cyanide salts. The process itself appears to be pretty much straightforward when initiated.

The base for both is same: make a thermal insulated oven from ceramic wool.

Wound a helicoil of SS tube inside of it, heat it with propane burner to cherry red(800C), and distill acetone through it, and out comes ketene. It can be then used as preferred. Not sure if this simple setup could be used to produce any useful quantities of acetic anhydride, but conceptually distilling a few liters through a tube should not be any bigger trouble than just plain distilling acetone itself.

Cyanide forms just in a simple crucible from otc reagents that is preferably protected from air at same temp. Difference between them is that HF and ketene are highly volatile and hence temporary, but cyanide salts are very stable and long lasting and can be readily manipulated even in any quantity.
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[*] posted on 14-6-2020 at 11:55


Quote: Originally posted by Mateo_swe  
How about Salvinorin A?
It is the main active psychotropic molecule in Salvia divinorum, that are legally sold and grown in many parts of the world.
Salvinorin A is active at doses as low as 200 µg.
LSD is active in about 20–30 µg doses but arent found in nature and isnt available legally.
And one can easily extract the Salvinorin A from the salvia D. plant and make a huge dose.
I dont know if there are any LD50 figures for Salvinorin A.
Some derivatives are ten times stronger than salvinorin A with an active dose of about 20µg.
Thats some potent stuff.


I doubt that salvinorin is toxic. It can cause hard trip, but it's not harmful.
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[*] posted on 14-6-2020 at 22:30


Quote: Originally posted by Mateo_swe  
How about Salvinorin A?
It is the main active psychotropic molecule in Salvia divinorum, that are legally sold and grown in many parts of the world.
Salvinorin A is active at doses as low as 200 µg.
LSD is active in about 20–30 µg doses but arent found in nature and isnt available legally.
And one can easily extract the Salvinorin A from the salvia D. plant and make a huge dose.
I dont know if there are any LD50 figures for Salvinorin A.
Some derivatives are ten times stronger than salvinorin A with an active dose of about 20µg.
Thats some potent stuff.


Derivatives of a herbal extract are neither common nor otc and if ingested would most likely just result in a long intense trip
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[*] posted on 15-6-2020 at 10:16


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
The Heracleum I'm not growing, I harvested it and dried the plant material to isolate the furanocoumarins from. The city government apparently doesn't really put a lot of effort into eradicating the plants here. The are growing in the middle of the city in places with a lot of playing kids around.


Good to read this. This plant grows everywhere all over Europe or am I mistaken ?
I have probably litterally mowed fields of them as a kid with a stick.


To go back to the topic, you all seem to have a different meaning for "OTC" and the notion depends on where you are in the world. Also, OTC means a much different thing for us than for non chemist who are not interested in what's really in the bottle.

Though it's not as toxic as other OTC products I'd go for bleach.
Not for itself but for the potential it has to be toxic when mixed with... well, just about any other OTC chemical products.

We dont have giant hogweed here as far as I know, but we do have native haracleum, “cow parsnip.” I wouldn’t think of it as particularly toxic, but the burns are really quite unpleasant. I personally think its a very ugly plant, hearing that people grow it is interesting. I have found brush clearing involving haracleum to be irritating to the nose and eyes, even though contact is avoided.




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[*] posted on 20-6-2020 at 11:16


azides
nicotine (much more potent than cyanide)
methyl mercury (now i wont get into how thats easily made, and i havent confirmed how this is made, nightmare chemical that no chemist ever wants to deal with)
hydrazine from bleach and ammonia (yes its not the only product but supposedly one huff would leave you suffering for a few days until youre out)
insulin (i cant remember mechanism but its quite serious stuff if youre not diabetic -- unless administrated sublingually)
H2S, now the fancy thing about this is that at high ppm you cant smell it anymore, so you just end up dying from seemingly nothing
carbon monoxide - very readily available, very sneaky. ive been close to dying from this once, my solution was to just go outside and sit down for half an hour, your brain starts feeling kinda numb and your vision will darken


not quite sure why im seeing people talking about LSD here, i believe as much as 250mg was accidentally snorted as it was confused with cocaine, 2 smartasses pulled that one and survived it. if we really have to talk about drugs fentanyl would be obvious candidate, notorious for having been mixed with xanax, even in my little town it has just recently caused death, for reference i believe its said to be around 5000 times more potent than heroin.

nbome should also be considered as its much more intense, though really most deaths from this comes from amateurs making sheets that just did it wrong

synthetic THC, it binds fully to cannabinoid receptors where non synthetic doesnt bind fully, incompetent manufacturing + moronic intake is probably what has caused people to die from it, its a lot more potent than non synthetic, so you could really just hand a junkie fake weed and watch him roll a regular spliff and possibly die from it on the spot

lead acetate, it tastes great, easily made by reacting lead metal with copper acetate




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
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[*] posted on 20-6-2020 at 11:36


Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
lead acetate, it tastes great, easily made by reacting lead metal with copper acetate


Lead (ii) chromate is a MONSTER. Lead ion AND chromate ion, all in one. Double whammy right there! xD




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