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Author: Subject: Anti bike theft agent
mackolol
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 Quote: Originally posted by Refinery tert-Butyl Isocyanide it is, then. If there is something that causes emergency evacuation of public places due to incapacitating odor, this thing comes handy. It doesn't matter if the thief gets away, they will kick them out of every town. I don't know what amphetamine smells like? Is it easily detectable, strong odor? Does pure/purified and dried amphetamine smell as well? [Edited on 11-6-2020 by Refinery]

It sometimes smells like dead mouse or just dead body. For some this odor is intolerable.

Do you know how to prepare alkyl isocyanides? Does it go like alkyl halide + alkali isocyanide?

[Edited on 13-6-2020 by mackolol]
Refinery
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I see. I've heard that it smells "fishy". One of my friend hangs out with junkies so I suppose I should ask if "I could have a smell, just out of curiosity" someday.

http://orgsyn.org/demo.aspx?prep=CV6P0232

The synthesis appears quite trivial by quick look and does not require any troublesome reagents.

Other thing to consider, though, is that TBIC is widely referred as the mother of all reeks and when I read some articles about it, merely being around those higly reeking chemicals is enough to imbue that odor to yourself.

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/05/07/th...

There was a written note that a scientist worked with isocyanides, left work and showered and changed his own clothes at the workplace and at later night went to theater and got kicked out because "bystanders couldn't stand the reek". This made me think that synthesizing isocyanides is absolutely out of question at your home or anywhere near where you want to retain any resale value on a real estate market. A reasonable way would be to make it in glovebox fumehood in a temporary location with high chimney, seal the product in metal or glass ampules and then decontaminate everything with HCL, methanol and ozone.

Spraying a good amount of TBIC on a bike thief would certainly make his life miserable for a while.

[Edited on 13-6-2020 by Refinery]
mackolol
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 Quote: Originally posted by Refinery I see. I've heard that it smells "fishy". One of my friend hangs out with junkies so I suppose I should ask if "I could have a smell, just out of curiosity" someday. http://orgsyn.org/demo.aspx?prep=CV6P0232 The synthesis appears quite trivial by quick look and does not require any troublesome reagents. Other thing to consider, though, is that TBIC is widely referred as the mother of all reeks and when I read some articles about it, merely being around those higly reeking chemicals is enough to imbue that odor to yourself. https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/05/07/th... There was a written note that a scientist worked with isocyanides, left work and showered and changed his own clothes at the workplace and at later night went to theater and got kicked out because "bystanders couldn't stand the reek". This made me think that synthesizing isocyanides is absolutely out of question at your home or anywhere near where you want to retain any resale value on a real estate market. A reasonable way would be to make it in glovebox fumehood in a temporary location with high chimney, seal the product in metal or glass ampules and then decontaminate everything with HCL, methanol and ozone. Spraying a good amount of TBIC on a bike thief would certainly make his life miserable for a while. [Edited on 13-6-2020 by Refinery]

As I read the article n butyl isocyanide is the most powerful one. And due to wikipedia it is very dangerous causing similar damage as CO. I don't imagine working with it at all, but what interests me is how stinky is it in comparison with thioacetone.
Chemetix
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Ahh the old Hoffman Carbylamine test. Stinky for sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbylamine_reaction

you only need tiny amount, despite the toxicity no one will end up exposed to it long enough to be dangerous. My concern is that 1950's bad smell pranks would these days be considered a potential chemical weapon.
Antiswat
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make it thick steel and load it up with a heat sensitive explosive. cheers. good luck with having this thing legally hit the market though, as a bonus you should be able to hear when someone tries to take your bike unless maybe its a van of burglarians just picking the bike off the ground and driving back south with it

iodoacetone would also be interesting, odorless teargas, its too easy to make.

~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
BaFuxa
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[Edited on 2-7-2020 by BaFuxa]

Potential counts for nothing until realized.
artemov
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Sorry to revive this, I have a genuine issue here

I installed a combi lock (see pic) for my mailbox located a certain distance from my place.
It seems that someone has been playing with the lock frequently, probably trying different combi to unlock it.
So I am thinking of maybe putting something on the lock to deter the fellow.

I have in mind silver nitrate, but I dun have it now and it's a bit too expensive to buy.
Any other suggestion?

I dun want to hurt or poison the guy, it could just be a naughty child!
It should also be relatively stable on the lock, though I can reapply it once every few days.
It should not destroy/damage the lock!
I can wear a glove to unlock when I need to retrieve my letters, no problem with that.

Cheers!

Fyndium
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There was a thread about these very strong coloring agents. Might apply some to the wheels, and when someone touches it, it gets to his fingers and everywhere. Shouldn't be toxic as it's used for food.
Fery
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1 drop of valeric acid in contact with thief skin e.g. (palms) and the thief will stink of vomit for few days, it cannot be washed out of skin. Plus 1 microcrystal of denatonium benzoate (Bitrex) at a surface which the thief must grab so the thief won't be able to eat with his bare hands for couple of days. Coloring agent? Crystal violet (Gentian violet) colors like a hell - it is used in medicine (oral candidiasis) or Brilliant green (eczema, local mycotic infections), Fuchsine = Solutio Castellani (pityriasis).

If there is a heaven, it seems not to be materially based. Does chemistry exist there and if yes, how does it look like? Are there good souls well supplied with laboratory equipment, glass, chemicals and information?
artemov
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 Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium There was a thread about these very strong coloring agents. Might apply some to the wheels, and when someone touches it, it gets to his fingers and everywhere. Shouldn't be toxic as it's used for food.

Thanks Fyndium!

 Quote: Originally posted by Fery 1 drop of valeric acid in contact with thief skin e.g. (palms) and the thief will stink of vomit for few days, it cannot be washed out of skin. Plus 1 microcrystal of denatonium benzoate (Bitrex) at a surface which the thief must grab so the thief won't be able to eat with his bare hands for couple of days. Coloring agent? Crystal violet (Gentian violet) colors like a hell - it is used in medicine (oral candidiasis) or Brilliant green (eczema, local mycotic infections), Fuchsine = Solutio Castellani (pityriasis).

But if I coat my lock with valeric acid, wouldn't it stink even before the thief lays his hands on it?

Bitrex sounds very very interesting
Fery
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yeah, Bitrex = very delayed and long lasting punishment of the thief
10 g for less than 10 US$which is enough for the whole life, just be careful with handling it from UA https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Grams-Denatonium-Benzoate-Most-B... from CN https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-grams-Denatonium-Benzoate-Most-B... If there is a heaven, it seems not to be materially based. Does chemistry exist there and if yes, how does it look like? Are there good souls well supplied with laboratory equipment, glass, chemicals and information? artemov Hazard to Others Posts: 162 Registered: 22-8-2018 Member Is Offline  Quote: Originally posted by Fery yeah, Bitrex = very delayed and long lasting punishment of the thief 10 g for less than 10 US$ which is enough for the whole life, just be careful with handling it from UA https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Grams-Denatonium-Benzoate-Most-B... from CN https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-grams-Denatonium-Benzoate-Most-B...

Yes I saw both of these. Thanks!
I'm just a bit worried for myself I once had bitter mouth for a couple of weeks from eating pine nuts!
Fyndium
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File a patent for U lock that has core made of pressurized tube which contains a solution of denatonium benzoate, valeric acid or a substance of low toxicity but high and persisting odor and a persistent coloring agent.

Cut it, and you make an aerosol cloud of immensely disgusting smelling stuff that makes you unable to enter any space where people habit and taints you whole in bright color and you can taste it a week after. Harmless to user as it's hermetically sealed in a steel tube.

Smearing any onto a lock is mainly harmful to the user.
Antiswat
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it probably wouldnt be legal, but im sure an angle grinder hammering away at a tube filled with even relatively safe flashpowder would make for quite the shocker, and possibly a bit of injury

maybe filling iodoacetone in there could work, or bromo or chloroacetone, not sure how much that corrodes but its plenty nasty, you would have to ram it shut with some type of plug, heating it would be a bad idea, as in welding it shut or soldering

~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
Fyndium
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Filling a metal tube with flashpowder does not differ at all from a concept of classic energetic pipe device, with added risk that the user will set it off due to any cause of static electricity. If that was the case, casting the tube full with ETN would be more effective. Someone would suggest also to use metal that is alloyed with something that releases extremely toxic metal oxides (like osmium tetroxide, etc) upon grinding it, but this goes well within the same category of "bike locks restricted in democratic countries".

Best idea so far has been this:

It's metal foam adulterated with ceramic granules. The dimensions could prevent bolt cutters, and the ceramic granules made from same or even harder material than angle grinder disc (afaik alumina, zirconia, etc), which will render it ineffective against it. The base material could be aluminum, steel or other metal alloy. Also the shackle frame would be made out of foam metal. After that, only diamond or possibly carbide cutters, torch and large enough mechanical cutters or benders could be effective.

I tried cutting tungsten electrode for TIG ages ago when I made tests with AP bullet inserts. I literally spent an entire disc cutting one 2.5mm electrode in half. Sintered tungsten (carbide) locks could hence possibly be also an option, if the price (and weight) were not an issue.

But it's not what can be broken in theory. It's what junkies and other lower forms of life can break on the street in few minutes with handheld tools.

[Edited on 21-5-2021 by Fyndium]
Vomaturge
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As far as something you could pour on the lock to bother thieves, how about the graphite/ammonium chloride/manganese oxides mix from a dead zinc carbon battery, add a splash of water . Only problem is you might want a new pair of gloves every time you touch it. Yes MnO2 can be toxic by inhalation but this mix is paste-like and leaves black smears on everything. Washing it off of porcelain or plastic is quite the chore. Skin takes days of regular washing.

I now have a YouTube channel. So far just electronics and basic High Voltage experimentation, but I'll hopefully have some chemistry videos soon.
clearly_not_atara
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 Quote: Originally posted by artemov Sorry to revive this, I have a genuine issue here I installed a combi lock (see pic) for my mailbox located a certain distance from my place.

What you need is a hidden camera, not a chemical.

[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
Fyndium
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 Quote: Originally posted by Vomaturge Only problem is you might want a new pair of gloves every time you touch it.

I might be looking for a long-term solution that is non-hazardous to handle on a daily basis, and could also protect more expensive bikes without destroying them while doing so.
Vomaturge
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What Clearly Not Atara said. Any “deterrent” chemical you put on the lock will be a daily nuisance whatever it’s mechanism of action.

I now have a YouTube channel. So far just electronics and basic High Voltage experimentation, but I'll hopefully have some chemistry videos soon.
Jenks
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 Quote: Originally posted by artemov I have in mind silver nitrate, but I dun have it now and it's a bit too expensive to buy. Any other suggestion?

Silver nitrate has always seemed overpriced when all it takes is to dissolve silver metal in nitric acid and evaporate the water. I like to take some of the solution out, basify it to get the silver oxide, and then add that back to the original solution. If it is in excess, it will use up any remaining nitric acid before evaporating the water.

A friend of mine one related that someone at work was breaking into his office, and he confirmed who it was by leaving droplets of silver nitrate on the doorknob and seeing who had brown stains or filed palms the next day.

I was also recently informed that traces of picric acid leave lasting yellow stains on skin.

If a lock were made of ferrocerium, it would at least be highly visible, and could possibly ignite, if it were to be cut with a grinder.
Fyndium
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Many chemicals are ridiculously overpriced considering how simple their preparation is. Paying the price is warranted if it is needed at once, very small quantities or there are no facilities or precursors available for any reason. Some synthesis are also very easy in concept, but in practice need special equipment or are very arduous otherwise.

Silver nitrate staining is fancy idea. I noted, when I tested the benzaldehyde synthesis that the mother liquor of the reaction also leaves lasting yellow stains on skin. I would presume that higher-than-ghetto - level rogues would use gloves, primarily to inhibit fingerprint and DNA contamination, secondly to protect hands from damage if doing a break-in.
IrishJeremy
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Just run a current through the bike, a la an electric fence. I'm sure that the circuitry and battery could be made small enough to conceal in a mounted water bottle, or even the frame. If not, cover the bike in Covid AND canceraids.

[Edited on 29-5-2021 by IrishJeremy]
Antiswat
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 Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium I tried cutting tungsten electrode for TIG ages ago when I made tests with AP bullet inserts. I literally spent an entire disc cutting one 2.5mm electrode in half. Sintered tungsten (carbide) locks could hence possibly be also an option, if the price (and weight) were not an issue. [Edited on 21-5-2021 by Fyndium]

really? just drop it on the ground and it will snap right in half lol. funny how that works. titanium is also a total piece of shit to cut with angle grinder, i found an titanium golf club and decided to chop it into pieces, one of the parts was 3mm titanium and i think just cutting what 80mm of that was like one whole angle grinder cutting disc

maybe fill the tube with bromide/bromate mix, forms bromine gas, it does in solution so i think it should also work when just heated up, otherwise a plastic tube with water, or solution of either bromide/bromate, in same fashion as a glowstick could be put inside the device

ammonium perchlorate can also be really nasty, i had it forming some diabolic chlorine compound when i burned it off with nano copper powder made from CuCl2 + Al, it burns quite slowly, sort of glows rather.

~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
Oxy
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 Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium File a patent for U lock that has core made of pressurized tube which contains a solution of denatonium benzoate, valeric acid or a substance of low toxicity but high and persisting odor and a persistent coloring agent.

Personally I would use a DCM solution of alpha-bromoacetophenone or propiophenone derivative. DCM will evaporate quicky but those nasty chemicals will stay for a long time and will literally squeeze tears from the victim. It will be hard to clean it as they are hydrophobic as f**k.
The punishment should be memorized, this one will stay in thief's memory for a really long time

edit: I see karlos already proposed that

[Edited on 5-6-2021 by Oxy]
Fyndium
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 Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat really? just drop it on the ground and it will snap right in half lol. funny how that works. titanium is also a total piece of shit to cut with angle grinder, i found an titanium golf club

I cut up 1mm thick titanium sheet for electrodes with no issues. I suspect yours was not actually titanium, or it was some special alloy.

Also, tungsten alloys can be really, really tough, over 3 times higher tensile strength than steel. Pure tungsten is brittle. I'm under impression that tungsten carbide U-locks could actually be the thing for an ultimate bike lock, but few people were willing to pay 500-1000$for a lock, even if their bike were$4000(reference: WC powder costs 100\$/kg in large quantities). Such a lock would be trivial to machine with EDM. Now, I wonder how no YouTuber has not yet made such a beast.
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Miscellaneous » Anti bike theft agent Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Test Forum