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Author: Subject: Extracting Ephedrine from Ma hung tea
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[*] posted on 25-6-2020 at 10:12
Extracting Ephedrine from Ma hung tea


Can anyone be so kind as to provide information as to how to extract this alkaloid from the ma hung tea that is listed on amazon?
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[*] posted on 25-6-2020 at 11:06


Acid / base extraction seems plausible, just need to find right solvents, as I have no idea of solubility for ephedrine.


Also looks like ones first post. :D




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[*] posted on 25-6-2020 at 11:32


Becareful how much you buy you don't want the police to assume that you are making methamphetamine I think that herb is fascinating that it was used as a natural bronchodilator
And for weight loss.




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[*] posted on 25-6-2020 at 12:06


Google is your friend... UTFSE
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[*] posted on 25-6-2020 at 12:18


Here's one recipe attached.
You can find more by google;)

Attachment: Ephedrine from Ma Huang.pdf (3.9MB)
This file has been downloaded 57 times

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[*] posted on 25-6-2020 at 12:34


Do you think this is the right place to discuss this?
I mean, you read about those dedicated forums in the other thread, you should go there instead.
They have lots of informations on exactly that already, writeups too...

But it is actually quite simple.
A problem is the good solubility of ephedrine in water still.

First you extract the plant matter with diluted HCl, ideally under boiling for a few hours.
Then you filter the insoluble stuff out, and continue when you obtain a clear solution.
You dissolve a lot of NaCl into this and basify it with solid sodium carbonate, and then add a strong lye solution, just a little bit of the latter.
The volume needs to be kept small, this is why its best to use solid soda to basify.
Then you extract it with DCM or chloroform, and you use lots of it, like an equal volume of the basic solution, three times.
Now wash(water and brine) and dry the chloroform solution, then you can acidify directly, or you distill the chloroform off and continue to form the salt of your choice, ideally after taking the residue up in acetone or in alcohol.
Thats it!
Expect very, very little though ;)
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[*] posted on 25-6-2020 at 20:19


Very little indeed. >10 grams per kilo.

When I lived in the American west, I used to brew tea out of Ephedra Viridis, which contains virtually NO l-ephedrine, but has a bunch of other alkaloids in it--that and 500mg of aspirin was as effective as the old original Alka-Seltzer Plus cold stuff for hay fever and common colds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra_viridis




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[*] posted on 25-6-2020 at 20:39


You know, the american species is entirely different from the eurasia parts of the world?
You can really forget about them.
The only good stuff being worth it, that is E. sinens and if you get it Bett early enough :P
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[*] posted on 25-6-2020 at 20:49


Yes^^. E. Viridis is useless as a precursor, but does work damn well as a bronchodilator, and gives you a little zip if you don't use caffeine. Which the LDS Church doesn't. Hmmm, Mormom Tea?

Seems to me that it has some phenylpronalamine in it. To lazy ATM to find the paper on my hard drive concerning Ephedra species alkaloid profiles.




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[*] posted on 26-6-2020 at 01:41


Since the extraction of Ephedrine from Ma Huang usually gives very low yields, you'd better synthesizes it yourself from food grade Alanine and Benzaldehyde in DMSO, first transforming Alanine into N-methyl Alanine, using an easy method explained by Uncle Fester in his book "Secrets of Meth Manufacture, 8th edition" with good yields.

I'm attaching the text extracted from the book that covers all the entire process.

Attachment: Ephedrine from n-methylalanine & benzaldehyde.pdf (3.1MB)
This file has been downloaded 48 times

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[*] posted on 26-6-2020 at 17:16


Benzaldehyde unfortunately is DEA List I, and with benzaldehyde, why bother with ephedrine? Unless you really want a cup of Ma Huang tea, and all that takes is a simple water extraction in a tea cup and microwave for three minutes.

[Edited on 6-27-2020 by arkoma]




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[*] posted on 26-6-2020 at 18:33


Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
Do you think this is the right place to discuss this?
I mean, you read about those dedicated forums in the other thread, you should go there instead.
They have lots of informations on exactly that already, writeups too...

But it is actually quite simple.
A problem is the good solubility of ephedrine in water still.

First you extract the plant matter with diluted HCl, ideally under boiling for a few hours.
Then you filter the insoluble stuff out, and continue when you obtain a clear solution.
You dissolve a lot of NaCl into this and basify it with solid sodium carbonate, and then add a strong lye solution, just a little bit of the latter.
The volume needs to be kept small, this is why its best to use solid soda to basify.
Then you extract it with DCM or chloroform, and you use lots of it, like an equal volume of the basic solution, three times.
Now wash(water and brine) and dry the chloroform solution, then you can acidify directly, or you distill the chloroform off and continue to form the salt of your choice, ideally after taking the residue up in acetone or in alcohol.
Thats it!
Expect very, very little though ;)


I read somewhere that chloroform decomposes ephedrine (it's fine for pseudo ephedrine) into an aldehyde and so it shouldn't be used for this extraction.id make a concentrated water extraction,filter, then add caustic soda until freebase then distill the freebase out with steam followed by pHing the distillate to 6 with HCL then evaporate in a double boiler arrangement.acetone wash the remaining product.just what I'd do. I've wondered if this could be done with San Pedro cactus rather than the lengthy solvent heavy extraction it normally calls for
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[*] posted on 26-6-2020 at 18:39


Quote: Originally posted by Chemi Pharma  
Since the extraction of Ephedrine from Ma Huang usually gives very low yields, you'd better synthesizes it yourself from food grade Alanine and Benzaldehyde in DMSO, first transforming Alanine into N-methyl Alanine, using an easy method explained by Uncle Fester in his book "Secrets of Meth Manufacture, 8th edition" with good yields.

I'm attaching the text extracted from the book that covers all the entire process.


If going this route I'd recommend going further to 4mar. Amphetamines are just so lowclass and boring

[Edited on 27-6-2020 by draculic acid69]
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[*] posted on 26-6-2020 at 22:55


Quote: Originally posted by arkoma  
Benzaldehyde unfortunately is DEA List I, and with benzaldehyde, why bother with ephedrine? Unless you really want a cup of Ma Huang tea, and all that takes is a simple water extraction in a tea cup and microwave for three minutes.


That's one more reason, among other reactions, why benzaldehyde is a DEA List I in USA. Thanks God here it isn't controlled anymore. Anyway you can easy make benzaldehyde from toluene or benzyl alcohol oxidation if you can't purchase that. So, I still thinking that's condensation remains a very OTC route to get ephedrine.

Perhaps someone don't want ephedrine just to get meth but use that as an energetic combination with caffeine like bodybuilders does, or as a medicine cause it's bronchodilator effect.
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[*] posted on 27-6-2020 at 02:08


Quote: Originally posted by Chemi Pharma  
Anyway you can easy make benzaldehyde from toluene or benzyl alcohol oxidation if you can't purchase that. So, I still thinking that's condensation remains a very OTC route to get ephedrine


I have some swampland for sale.......Possible^^^. Yes. Easy/efficient? No. Ma Huang itself would be sufficiently thermogenic for athletes by itself also.

And I put as much faith in Fester as I do Ledgard.




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[*] posted on 4-7-2020 at 20:20


Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69  

I read somewhere that chloroform decomposes ephedrine (it's fine for pseudo ephedrine) into an aldehyde

Thats not entirely correct.
The reaction that takes place between chloroform and ephedrine freebase results in ephedrine HCl and "aldehydes", but I believe those unnamed "aldehydes" result from the chloroform and not the ephedrine.
However, I would always recommend to use DCM instead, there is no such issue with this solvent.

Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69  
[
If going this route I'd recommend going further to 4mar. Amphetamines are just so lowclass and boring

Umm... I guess you never tried the 4-methylaminorex personally so far? :D
Because, this substance is in my opinion, despite very potent and long acting, not very good and enjoyable, not even really euphoric at all.
This is actually a boring substance, and I was very disappointed with it, being so overly hyped and all...
Possibly alright if used for cognitive enhancement, but don't expect any real rush and euphoria as with amphetamines, as this is something it just doesn't have.

Quote: Originally posted by Chemi Pharma  
Since the extraction of Ephedrine from Ma Huang usually gives very low yields, you'd better synthesizes it yourself from food grade Alanine and Benzaldehyde in DMSO, first transforming Alanine into N-methyl Alanine, using an easy method explained by Uncle Fester in his book "Secrets of Meth Manufacture, 8th edition" with good yields.

I'm attaching the text extracted from the book that covers all the entire process.

This method is just not useful for the amateur.
Making N-methylalanine from alanine is far from being practical, with the likely dimethylation under that conditions and all... also, one seemingly needs racemic alanine, and thats expensive.
The synthesis of the N-alkylalanine is practical only if one starts by reductive amination of pyruvic acid, this will also result in the racemic amino acid.
The most recent modification of this synthesis is still far from being economically viable though.
The yield is just so low, the product is "double racemic" too, I don't think its useful at all.

If one is after ephedrine, then I would say the best approach would be to start from propiophenone, which will result almost solely in both erythro enantiomers of ephedrine, in good yield from cheap reagents, while requiring only a relatively small reaction volume.
And since here we only deal with two instead of four enantiomers, we can readily separate those two.
A chiral steam distillation, using external steam generation to force the stubborn molecule over, using a half molar equivalent of monosodium tartrate, will result in the distillate containing only the much sought after 1R,2S-enantiomer, with the other, unnatural enantiomer residing in the still pot as salt.
Everything else is just not as economical and viable as this route.
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[*] posted on 5-7-2020 at 12:42


Quote: Originally posted by Chemi Pharma  
Here's one recipe attached.
You can find more by google;)


Seriously?

Put the plant material in a blender with diethyl ether, add ammonia, sodium carbonate, HCl, NaOH, sodium carbonate again, and salt.

THEN filter and separate layers.

How does this not look like a joke?

Also, ether in a blender? Blend for hours and hours and let stand overnight?

Is that supposed to make a fire, or an explosion?
Or does the ether just all evaporate away and let you dream of ephedrine all night long in a stupor?

Actually, I do have a blender that could do this, but most home hobbyists don't have a blender fitted with a cooling jacket and 24/40 joints on top for condensers and addition funnels, etc.

The author doesn't even know how to separate the pseudoephedrine.
Doesn't even try. (Acetone and isopropanol dissolve pseudophed, but not ephedrine. Evaporate total hydrochlorides to a thin syrup and mix into acetone or isopropanol. And let crystallize)







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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 16:23


E. Viridis, species that lives in SE California. "Mormon Tea". This specimen is on Donnell Hill in 29 Palms, CA

ephedra.jpg - 217kB




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[*] posted on 14-7-2020 at 20:14


Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
Making N-methylalanine from alanine is far from being practical, with the likely dimethylation under that conditions and all... also, one seemingly needs racemic alanine, and thats expensive.
The synthesis of the N-alkylalanine is practical only if one starts by reductive amination of pyruvic acid, this will also result in the racemic amino acid.
The most recent modification of this synthesis is still far from being economically viable though.
The yield is just so low, the product is "double racemic" too, I don't think its useful at all.

I suspect that the end product is intended to be d,l meth same as from P2P. There are simple ways to methylalanine of high purity, which should be fine as mostly d-; dimethylalanine won't react. One will need the meth to find ephedrine in New World Ephedra.




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[*] posted on 15-7-2020 at 17:14


[/rquote]
. One will need the meth to find ephedrine in New World Ephedra.[/rquote]

What does this mean????
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[*] posted on 16-7-2020 at 01:08


That new world ephedras are pretty much alkaloid free. need to be high AF to expend the energy digging them out. I think.

Maybe I'm already high AF.




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[*] posted on 17-7-2020 at 11:41


Some of the Ephedra that grows in USA and Europe might not be high in Ephedrine and PseudoEpedrine but there are many Ephedra varaiants growing in Europe and all over the world and i doubt all of them are tested.
From the few tests i have read a variant from Himalaya mountain region was highest in ephedrine alkaloids.
Extracting Ephedrine from Ephedra will never be a good way to get Ephedrine in any decent amounts.
They are hard to grow in climates not suited for them and they grow slowly.
If they are thriving wild in the region where you live you maybe can make it worth your time invested if its a good variant of Ephedra.
The Ephedras that has been used for extraction and production of Ephedrine has been coming from China where they have the right climate.
There are now a fast growing problem with meth in Afghanistan where there usually has been only opiates and heroin problems.
The Ephedrine feeding the Afghan problems comes from a local Ephedra variant that that like the harsh growing conditions in the hills in that region.
But what makes it possible are lots of Ephedras growing wild and very cheap labor, im pretty sure it would not be economically possible in any highly developed country.
If one wants Ephedrine i think you must go the chemical route.
If you have Benzaldehyde (In Europe Benzaldehyde is sold in pails on ebay) you can make Ephedrine via L-PAC by using ordinary bakers yeast like fermenting for drinkable alcohol.
This procedure has been improved a lot and L-PAC levels are now up to somewhere like 28g/liter.
I would look at this procedures if i wanted ephedrine.
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