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Author: Subject: Is it too much to ask to wear a mask?
karlos³
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[*] posted on 17-9-2020 at 17:45


As far as I've read, the mandatory mask wearing in china was very good training regarding the improvement of the accuracy of facial recognition software for people wearing masks.
So I'm not sure if that is still actual to this date.
I mean, they had plenty of opportunities to improve their ability to recognise people with mask on, I doubt that their accuracy is still as bad as when that all started.

And, my doctor(a good one, not a quack) wouldn't have written a certificate if he wouldn't be of the opinion that the disease poses no greater risk than the flu.
Our government here has up to eight weeks before masks became mandatory again and again repeated that using masks is useless, or even more dangerous than not wearing them, and then suddenly its the opposite?
So why take their recommendations serious?
I rather listen to a doctor who knows what he is talking about.
Other countries did fine completely without that either(like sweden), and in many places they have stopped requiring their use in the meantime, all without the situation worsening.
Thats why it doesn't appear to me like wearing them makes any significant difference to the spread of the disease.

I mean its not like I run around and refuse a mask and then go on to argue loudly and demand to see the manager, or what, when buying groceries and an employee speaks to me about the lack of a mask.
No, I just comply calmly and pull that piece of paper out and it is all fine.
And in the meantime they know about that where I usually buy supplies, just occasionally another customer acts up and makes a scene about it.
But I play by the rules too, to be excepted with a medicinal certificate is simply according to those rules, so I don't see the issue or why it should be stupid.
Is it that bad?
I would wear a mask otherwise too, of course.
What I don't understand is why not more people make use of this option.
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B(a)P
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[*] posted on 17-9-2020 at 18:20


The Lancet released a pretty convincing paper on the effectiveness of wearing masks in reducing transmission.
The paper was prepared to inform practices in health care, but some of the data used was collected from non-health care settings, so is relevant to wearing masks in public settings.
The Lancet
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[*] posted on 17-9-2020 at 18:23


Not from the Lancet, but also pretty convincing.


Screen-Shot-2020-05-01-at-4.34.20-PM-e1588365423770.png - 265kB
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[*] posted on 17-9-2020 at 19:04


Entertaining and to-the-point

https://youtu.be/x6cTDGqcUpA
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[*] posted on 17-9-2020 at 19:46


"American problems demand American solutions!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa6BlJlrL-k




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[*] posted on 17-9-2020 at 20:29


Oh mate! That made my day that did!



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[*] posted on 18-9-2020 at 07:27


I can't understand why more people don't get a medical exemption from using headlights.

headlights.jpg - 55kB




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Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 18-9-2020 at 09:22


In the Netherlands nobody wears a mask, only in public transport it is mandatory, and then only in the transportation vehicles, not even at stops or in stations.

On the streets, in shops, in supermarkets, only rarely I see masks.

At the moment infections are skyrocketing, but the people infected are mostly students. The new study year started and youngsters are partying all around. Many infections in bars.

The number of people hospitalized at the moment still is only 380, of who around 60 in IC. On 17 million people not too bad I guess. In March and April those numbers where a lot higher, while the number of infections were a lot lower. Of course there were less tests done back then, but I think the difference is mostly the age of the people being infected.

1.5 meter distance and no big events seems to do the trick.
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karlos³
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[*] posted on 18-9-2020 at 14:21


Finally someone with a realistic sight on the whole thing!
Next door, in my country, the death rate this year was actually lower than last year, regarding flu/corona.

Comparing not wearing a potentially may or may not helpful mask with driving without lights does not even remotely make sense.
And every study about the benefits of mask can't be taken serious if you see how people wear them in public and behave with them on, so that is why I'm saying they aren't doing much.
Most people wear them under the nose, I've seen people pull them down to answer the telephone, even saw a man in the supermarket who almost ripped it down to sneeze wholeheartedly into both hands.
Even the french president pulls his mask down in an interview to cough in his hands!
Or politicians, again and again, no social distancing, even push themselves to 8 into a small elevator(nobody with a mask), and those people want to be taken serious?
So who is expecting the general population to use them like they should be used? If not even our rulers are able to?
And that is why I don't participate in that circus, and that is why my doctor wrote me such a certificate.
And why I wonder why not more people are doing this.
It doesn't matter anyways when the majority acts like this, this isn't far fetched, just logical in my opinion.

So that is what I meant with the comparison with the flu, as that seems to be deadlier and nowhere was such a hysteria with the mask mandatory ever, not since the spanish flu epidemic, and this is what I was talking about.
The same risiko groups are dying of the flu every year, but people just shrug and go on with everything just as normal, but when a slightly less dangerous virus got hyped by the media, everyone stirs crazy?
And this is why I refuse to be part of the mandatory mask circus, I mean next door in NL it does work too, so why should the virus be a different kind of beast a few hundred km's away?

And most just ridicule me about my opinion with memes, instead of arguing factual.
I get that impression that the english speaking countries are fearmongering their population, to an unreasonable extent.
In oz the cops choked a woman because she wore no mask.
Where is this reasonable and ok for people?
They all overreact because of the deliberately overhyped media reports.
There is even a lot of strong evidence, no actually proof, that the statistics are blown up artificially as they don't differ between dying ON corona and dying WITH corona, all count as the first case, even violent deaths and so on.
I mean that is known already for a while, not widely but it can be found, many cases of such manipulation even, in many countries.

I mean, its just a piece of cloth, and you can use everything, even a scarf is alright? Although not a living snake, as a man in UK found out :D
But what protection against aerosol offers a scarf, or a neckerchief or such actually?
Almost nothing against anything that is smaller than dust.
But people sigh in relief when somebody covers his half face with an useless device? Thats what the fearmongering of the media did to them.
The real risiko groups aren't even, just as usual, in public, they are in retirement homes, hospitals or at home, now even more than usual.

This is just crazy and makes really not much sense, and I don't want to participate in it.
But please don't throw me into the same niche as the "muh freedoms" people, its not like I don't have any good reasoning for why I think like this about the situation.
Thank you, that would be nice :)


Oh, and this:
Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  
Just wait, next he's gonna deny the Holocaust and claim that Merkel is a reptilian.

Really, fuck you steve.
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Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 19-9-2020 at 02:14


Our government always said there would be no obligation to wear masks because even if it would help, it would also cause a sense of "false security". I don't know if this is true or not, but the people who are getting infected now would get infected anyway even with masks I think.

In case of mandatory masks, apparently if you are in a bar and are having a drink, you don't have to wear the mask while drinking. Well, in my student drinking days, I made sure I would have a drink on hand anytime and if not I would be at the bar ordering one. Another place people are being infected is inside student houses, where even with a mandatory mask policy no one would be wearing masks.

If I see someone wearing a mask now, I keep some extra distance from them. Maybe they are in a risk group and don't want to get ill, maybe they just got back from a COVID test and still need some groceries, or maybe they are feeling sick but don't want to get tested as a positive test would mean quarantine for them and their friends and family... who knows?
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stoichiometric_steve
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[*] posted on 19-9-2020 at 05:31


Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
In the Netherlands nobody wears a mask...

At the moment infections are skyrocketing,


Gee, i wonder why?

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
I don't know if this is true or not, but the people who are getting infected now would get infected anyway even with masks I think.


So basically surgeon doctors are required to wear masks even though they're ineffective at minimizing risks for infection during surgery due to droplets containing bacteria etc.?

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  

Next door, in my country, the death rate this year was actually lower than last year, regarding flu/corona.


There is your proof that masks and social distancing obviously work, even if there are countless shitwits trying to undermine those common sense measures every step of the way bEcAuSe MuZzLe LaWs bAd!!!1!

Yes, many are just too dumb to wear masks correctly, but even then the rest who aren't helped prevent the worst. Imagine how this could all have long been under control if it wasn't for those who are just too entitled and ignorant to give up a little bit of their comfortable lives for a few months.

This is why that virus will never be under control and there is no going back to normal anymore. It's going to cost a lot more lives still and frankly, that's what mankind needs most. That kind of catharsis was long overdue.

[Edited on 19-9-2020 by stoichiometric_steve]
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[*] posted on 19-9-2020 at 07:04


In Canada, the death rate from COVID is 7%. That's not "just a flu".



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Tsjerk
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[*] posted on 19-9-2020 at 08:13


Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
In the Netherlands nobody wears a mask...

At the moment infections are skyrocketing,


Gee, i wonder why?



I knew this one was coming.

These are the graphs of infections and hospitalizations since February:


Besmettingen.PNG - 23kB
Number of infections (note: only since June everyone can be tested).

opnamen.PNG - 17kB
Number of hospitalizations

No one, from the beginning, wore a mask.

Source for the graphs: rivm.nl


Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
I don't know if this is true or not, but the people who are getting infected now would get infected anyway even with masks I think.

So basically surgeon doctors are required to wear masks even though they're ineffective at minimizing risks for infection during surgery due to droplets containing bacteria etc.?


Come on, that is the worst argument ever. Surgeons wear surgical masks and know how to use them.
Also I'm not saying the people being infected would be infected if they would wear a mask all the time. I just say these people wouldn't wear the mask at the moment they are infected if wearing one would be obligatory.


Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  


Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  

Next door, in my country, the death rate this year was actually lower than last year, regarding flu/corona.


There is your proof that masks and social distancing obviously work


That is what I said, 1,5 meters and no big events do the trick. But the Dutch numbers do prove you don't need masks in the equation.

Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  
Imagine how this could all have long been under control if it wasn't for those who are just too entitled and ignorant to give up a little bit of their comfortable lives for a few months.



Look at the hospitalization graph above, in the Netherlands it is pretty much under control.

[Edited on 19-9-2020 by Tsjerk]
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[*] posted on 19-9-2020 at 10:01


I believe that these masks are totally useless. I never used one and never will use one. You cannot compare these masks with masks, used by surgeons and other professionals in the medical world.

As long as we have to use masks in public transport I will not use public transport. I do most things on bike, so no big deal for me. Using P&R facilities around big cities now is no go for me, but I avoided the big cities of NL anyways last year.

I do, however, take the 1.5 meter distance and avoidance of busy places very seriously. This afternoon I went downtown, but it was so crowded (we have great weather now and many people go out shopping or just visiting the centre of the city), that I decided to go home again. I go out biking at least once a day, sometimes twice a day, but I do that in rural areas do that I do not have to go through crowds of youngsters. Normally I also visit cities like Amsterdam, Utrecht, The Hague or Maastricht once or twice per year, but this year we did not go to any main city.

[Edited on 19-9-20 by woelen]




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[*] posted on 19-9-2020 at 12:07


Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  
bEcAuSe MuZzLe LaWs bAd!!!1!

You really believe that this will lead to normality anytime?
If so, I am a bit disappointed in your intellect.
And apparently you haven't read the wording in the infektionsschutzgesetz, please do, I encourage you!

Also, I made a meme for you :)

spongebob muzzle.jpg - 80kB
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[*] posted on 19-9-2020 at 14:37


I generally try to stay apart from the types of discussions happening here. However, there was an editorial piece in the NY Times a while back that everyone involved in this discussion should read and think about. The man being written about is not some marginal crank. He raises some very contemplative points no matter which side of the "mask argument" you are on. Do take the time to read, and reread,this piece. It is worth the effort.

AvB

Attachment: Giorgio Agamben, the Philosopher Trying to Explain the Coronavirus .pdf (791kB)
This file has been downloaded 19 times

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[*] posted on 19-9-2020 at 16:32


Quote: Originally posted by AvBaeyer  
I generally try to stay apart from the types of discussions happening here. However, there was an editorial piece in the NY Times a while back that everyone involved in this discussion should read and think about. The man being written about is not some marginal crank. He raises some very contemplative points no matter which side of the "mask argument" you are on. Do take the time to read, and reread,this piece. It is worth the effort.

AvB


Via Wiki
Agamben, in an article published by Il Manifesto on 26 February 2020, wrote that the COVID-19 pandemic was an "invention": "In order to make sense of the frantic, irrational, and absolutely unwarranted emergency measures adopted for a supposed epidemic of coronavirus, we must begin from the declaration of the Italian National Research Council (NRC), according to which 'there is no SARS-CoV2 epidemic in Italy.' and 'the infection, according to the epidemiological data available as of today and based on tens of thousands of cases, causes light/moderate symptoms (a variant of flu) in 80-90% of cases. In 10-15%, there is a chance of pneumonia, but which also has a benign outcome in the large majority of cases. We estimate that only 4% of patients require intensive therapy.'"[50][51][52]

COVID-19 pandemic Wiki
The disease mainly spreads between people when they are in close proximity. It spreads very easily and sustainably, primarily via contaminated droplets produced during breathing, coughing, sneezing, talking and singing.[7][8] Many larger droplets rapidly fall to the ground, however some can be suspended in air as aerosols, especially in indoor spaces.[8]

Passage via Verso
So, here we are, galled by an elderly and misguided sage, a man born in 1942 whose stringent theoretical dispositions have clouded his judgement. On this small amount of evidence, Agamben is a coronavirus truther. His reliance on philosophical abstractions, just as the material world deteriorates around him, is his intellectual ruin. That he is personally more at risk from his wrongheaded assumptions adds an extra level of pathos and concern.

The following day, Jean-Luc Nancy wrote a rebuttal in another Italian journal, Antinomie.[iii] Not only does Nancy state the obvious medical knowns about COVID-19 to contradict Agamben’s analysis, he also draws on damning personal experience. About thirty years ago, Agamben had been one of the few people to advise Nancy to avoid having a heart transplant. Nancy politely reminds us (and him) that if he had acted on this advice he would almost certainly be dead, which counts as something less, presumably, than mere biological survival.
https://www.versobooks.com/blogs/4636-states-of-emergency-me...
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[*] posted on 19-9-2020 at 21:21
Please, go back to your corners guys


TL;DR




Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  


Oh, and this:
Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  
Just wait, next he's gonna deny the Holocaust and claim that Merkel is a reptilian.

Really, fuck you steve.


Guys, check this out. I AM A SELFISH BASTARD and it grieves me that two of our best contributors may quit speaking to each other.

You both come on strong--not a judgement, an observation. I am prone too it too, as you know if you've been here these last six years. I have to exercise an ENORMOUS amount of restraint in these threads myself. Please, for an old drunk redneck if no one else, would y'all go back to your corners. We just went through a firefight next door.......

Thank you for your consideration,.

Arkoma

edit corrected this " last two years" to "last six years"

[Edited on 9-20-2020 by arkoma]




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sodium_stearate
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[*] posted on 20-9-2020 at 09:20


The whole mask thing is completely bogus.
It does nothing. The only function wearing a mask
actually does, is that it keeps people from confronting
the wearer with their insanity.

I have had some luck with the following technique : (such as when walking past the mask nazi lady at the door to the local WalMart super center).

I walk past wearing no mask. Then as I am grabbing my cart
to do my shopping, I hear her droning "Sir, you MUST wear
a mask!"...

So I smile and walk over to her and tell her this:

"I have a medical condition which precludes the wearing
of a face covering".

Then she tells me to stay at least 6 feet away from everyone.

Then I say that 12 feet is probably much better.

Then I go in, do all of my shopping, and nobody says
shit about it.:cool:




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[*] posted on 20-9-2020 at 09:26


Quote: Originally posted by sodium_stearate  
"I have a medical condition which precludes the wearing of a face covering".

"I'm sorry sir, but smug stupidity does not qualify as a medical condition."




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sodium_stearate
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[*] posted on 20-9-2020 at 14:23
medical condition


When a person states that they have a medical
condition which precludes the wearing of a face covering,
that is the end of the conversation.

The person cannot be questioned any farther, cannot
be asked for any paperwork, cannot be asked what the condition
is.....nothing.....nadda.

End of story. :cool: :D




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[*] posted on 20-9-2020 at 15:50


If your breathing is so compromised that you cannot wear a properly adjusted mask, then you should stay home, as covid will probably kill you.
Alternately, if its a mental condition, then you should stay home too - we don't want crazy wandering the streets.




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[*] posted on 20-9-2020 at 17:37


Whitehouse official Admiral Brett Giroir wants you to wear a mask."Biology is independent of politics"
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/09/20/giroir-corona...

[Edited on 21-9-2020 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 21-9-2020 at 07:52
medical condition


My medical condition is that I simply do not
like breathing my own warm moist air inside
of a mask. That irritates me.

I opt not to do it. Very simple.

The words to use to get out of doing it are:

"I have a medical condition which precludes the wearing
of a face covering"

End of story!




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looks like work" T.A. Edison
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[*] posted on 21-9-2020 at 11:40


So being a giant toddler, waving your rattle and screaming "I don't wike it!!!" is a medical condition now? And that entitles you do avoid the most basic precautions to avoid spreading a disease that's killed 950 000 people world-wide?

You people are beyond help and beyond hope.




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