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Author: Subject: Synthesis checks for HMTD
Arcus
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[*] posted on 26-9-2020 at 09:56
Synthesis checks for HMTD


I plan on synthesising some HMTD for fun in the coming days, but I just want to check that I am doing everything as safe as possible, so I don't blow something up in my face.
I have HMTA, and I will react it with Hydrogen Peroxide under a citric acid catalyst. This will be done using an ice bath. With a rough 50% yield (what it says on the wiki page) I should get about 4g using 5.4g of the HTMA.

Are there any other 'this is vitally important' thing I need to know before cracking on with is?
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ArbuzToWoda
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[*] posted on 26-9-2020 at 09:59


Yeah - keep the reaction below 8C at ALL TIMES. Using lower concentration of peroxide is actually better. Runaway reactions happen VERY READILY with this compound and your whole shed/house/balcony will stink of piss and your nose will die of the sour, putrid feeling if you inhale any of the fumes.

Please be careful.
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Arcus
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[*] posted on 26-9-2020 at 11:53


I have 12% peroxide - is that okay? it's a garage btw ;)

[Edited on 26-9-2020 by Arcus]
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[*] posted on 26-9-2020 at 12:05


It is okay. A couple of years ago, when I attempted this preparation I found some very old thread on some HTML forum with many writeups that proved useful. Can't find it now, but you should look for it before proceeding.
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aromaticfanatic
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[*] posted on 26-9-2020 at 16:21


Quote: Originally posted by Arcus  
I just want to check that I am doing everything as safe as possible, so I don't blow something up in my face.

Are there any other 'this is vitally important' thing I need to know before cracking on with is?


Just stay away from HMTD and TATP. TATP is worse but HMTD is right behind it. 4 grams is enough to really fuck yourself up with. Unless you are really experienced or already knew stuff like PPE at all times and not handling it directly, I'd say to not make it. If you already knew that I assume you knew about the other hundreds of rules to keep yourself safe.

HMTD is nothing to take lightly at all. People say it isn't too sensitive if made right but in the end it's still an organic peroxide which are notoriously known for being unpredictable. So let's say 9 people had the safer stuff but 1 had even more sensitive crap using the same synthesis, would you be fine being that 1 guy? I'd look into other primaries because HMTD is one of those that will eventually blow up since you will make a mistake at some point. The difference between those who keep fingers and those that don't is that they chose better primaries.

Of course you can ignore everything I just said and go your way but I wouldn't if I were you.

Keep temp as low as possible, use weaker acids and don't use sulfuric or HCl, use citric acid, and do not store it. In the US storing is illegal and even though HMTD doesn't sublimate into the container as fast as TATP, I believe there is still some volatility but worst of all is that it is easy to get some grains in the container opening area and twisting, pulling, and vibrations can set it all off. I don't think HMTD will detonate when under water but why take the risk? It's easy enough to make so make the exact amount you need.
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Joeychemist
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[*] posted on 26-9-2020 at 21:32


The Sciencemadness-wiki page on HMTD is too short and poorly written to be considered a serious reference for a procedural writeup that no one should use as their main source. The reference linked to at the bottom of the wiki page are all valuable sources of information though.

For example the author seriously contradicts himself by way of poor wording as the article reads;

"NEVER STORE HMTD! Try to use it as soon as possible.

A SM user has discovered that HMTD can be safely stored at -10 °C, with no signs of any decomposition, even after 15 years"

You should read all the referenced science madness threads in said HMTD wiki page before you fuck around and loose fingers... If you were ready to make organic peroxides you'd know that 12%H2O2 is fine. Though, you need to adjust your reactants stoichiometrically of course and amore dilute rxn. naturally means your catalyst (the citric OR HCl acid) will be more dilute in action and slow the rxn. Temperature also affects the time the rxn. takes to complete. I used to have to leave the flask in the fridge for a few days sometimes with more dilute H2O2.

Good luck, don't hurt anyone else...
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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 27-9-2020 at 00:40


Quote:
The the author seriously contradicts himself by way of poor wording.

It's worth noting, too, that HMTD undergoes a slow decomposition in water.

(Why, oh why, do so many people misspell "lose"?)

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[*] posted on 27-9-2020 at 01:47


Handle it like it is going to donate at any second. Any amount larger than a match head that detonates in your hand will do you damage. Any particular reason you are making HMTD?
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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 28-9-2020 at 00:55


Quote:
Handle it like it is going to donate[sic] at any second

HMTD is relatively safe to handle and is a very effective primary ─ washed with water with a final rinse in ethanol, it is stable when stored dry at low temperature.

Ignited unconfined in small quantities, it simply deflagrates.

[Edited on 28-9-2020 by hissingnoise]
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[*] posted on 28-9-2020 at 12:09


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  

HMTD is relatively safe to handle and is a very effective primary ─ washed with water with a final rinse in ethanol, it is stable when stored dry at low temperature.

Ignited unconfined in small quantities, it simply deflagrates.

[Edited on 28-9-2020 by hissingnoise]


Apologies for the typo, but I still stand by what I said.
It is quite sensitive to static discharge and is dramatically sensitised in contact with some other compounds, including many metals. A drop of concentrated sulfuric acid on 50 mg will make it detonate.
If the OP is making it for the first time I think my recommended precautions can only help.
To clarify I did not intent to indicate that it was not a usable primary.
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aromaticfanatic
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[*] posted on 4-10-2020 at 11:03


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
Handle it like it is going to donate[sic] at any second


Ignited unconfined in small quantities, it simply deflagrates.

[Edited on 28-9-2020 by hissingnoise]


I think you need to learn that organic peroxides are unpredictable as can be.

I think you also need to learn the concept of self confining.

Mix the two together and you have HMTD.... HMTD detonating in your hands.

Just leave them at bay. There's a reason they get a bad rap.
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[*] posted on 5-10-2020 at 01:00


Quote: Originally posted by aromaticfanatic  
Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  

Ignited unconfined in small quantities, it simply deflagrates.
[Edited on 28-9-2020 by hissingnoise]

I think you also need to learn the concept of self confining.

Which part of "small quantities" are you having trouble with?

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aromaticfanatic
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[*] posted on 6-10-2020 at 17:12


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote: Originally posted by aromaticfanatic  
Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  

Ignited unconfined in small quantities, it simply deflagrates.
[Edited on 28-9-2020 by hissingnoise]

I think you also need to learn the concept of self confining.

Which part of "small quantities" are you having trouble with?



What part of HMTD is an unpredictable and highly sensitive explosive are you have trouble with?

I can give you a few examples of how explosives don't behave like they should even in "small quantities." Put a number to that. Is 1 gram a small quantitiy? Or 10mg? I'd go with the latter. 10mg of HMTD is fine but 1 gram is reaching to the power of a #8 detonator which will cause devastating damage.
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