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Author: Subject: desktop NMR?
spirocycle
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desktop NMR?

http://www.picospin.com/products/
Is this NMR machine good?

Im sorry for such a simple question, but I have no idea how the specs listed fare in terms of quality.

Specifications
Larmor frequency 45 MHz
Nucleus proton
Sample form liquid
Resolution better than 100 ppb
Signal-to-noise ratio 300 for water, single shot
Magnet type permanent
Capillary 300 micron ID
Weight 7 lbs.
Dimensions 8"W x 5"H x 11"D
Power 115/230 VAC, 50/60Hz, 150 W

[Edited on 24-2-2011 by spirocycle]
bfesser
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Wish I had $20,000... Dotty Harmless Posts: 2 Registered: 13-3-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood What do you want to use it for? I don't know anything about the software, it would be nice to know what pulse sequences are available or if you could write your own. The frequency spread of peaks wouldn't be great, so if you want to use it for qualitative analysis, molecules with a many unique sites might give you a bloody mess of overlapping peaks. arsphenamine Hazard to Others Posts: 236 Registered: 12-8-2010 Location: I smell horses, Maryland, USA Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Picospin lists possible applications and gives spectra. Their essential oils bit caught my eye: http://www.picospin.com/applications/process-control/essenti... It is adequate for some quality assurance in an industrial setting and comparisons against costly 200 or 300MHz 1H NMR are unfair. 45MHz 1h-nmr of wintergreen oil 300MHz 1H-NMR of wintergreen oil [Edited on 13-3-2011 by arsphenamine] Nicodem Super Moderator Posts: 4230 Registered: 28-12-2004 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood The peaks are absolutely terribly wide and couplings horrible! But speaking relatively, the peaks are absolutely fine and coupling gorgeous - after all, it is a freaking 45 MHz machine we are talking about! I would love to have one such machine at home, but at the job I would hate it. A major drawback I noticed about these weak field machines is that they appear to require very concentrated samples. The methyl salicylate spectra above was taken neat and with 72 scans! A regular 300 MHz machine currently costs bellow 200 k$ (though the maintenance costs can not be ignored with the current price of liquid helium), yet a sample of 10 mg per 0.7 mL solvent will give an excellent spectra with less than 16 scans. A 800 MHz machine can give you an 1H and 13C spectra from about 1 mg sample under optimum conditions. Though this 45 MHz machine seems not to use normal NMR tubes for sampling. I saw they mention some capillary tube sampling system, so the use of the neat sample might be due to this peculiar sampling system.

…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)

arsphenamine
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 Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem A regular 300 MHz machine currently costs bellow 200 k$(though the maintenance costs can not be ignored with the current price of liquid helium)... My hope is that the high temp superconductor NMR devices arrive on the market Real Soon Now. A 200MHz 1H-NMR will still cost <$200k but the cooling requirements are less onerous. Still higher temp supercons can be cryogen-free.

spirocycle
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I was looking at this device for a basic organic classroom setting.
My professor is looking to get a grant for one.
even if it is not accurate to a high enough degree to identify complex unknowns, it would still probably be good enough to confirm the identity of a sample if you think you know what it is.
redox
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The resolution on this NMR is too low. 45 MHz is far below the minimum (60 MHz is minimal, 100 MHz is good).
Dotty
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 Quote: Originally posted by arsphenamine A 200MHz 1H-NMR will still cost <$200k but the cooling requirements are less onerous. Still higher temp supercons can be cryogen-free. http://www.hts110.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/hts-110-2... What are they using for the solenoid in the high temps? YBCO wire? To spirocycle: The 45 MHz unit would probably be fine for that. Since it's a classroom setting, you can just choose unknown compounds appropriately such that the spectra are easily analyzed. My supervisor has a Terranova Earth's Field NMR and we use it as a teaching tool, though more for demonstrations of things like T1 and T2, etc. Like I said before, it would be useful to know what the software/hardware limitations were... for example, the resolution of the spectra on your 45 MHz could be improved given a longer acquisition time, etc. [Edited on 16-3-2011 by Dotty] [Edited on 16-3-2011 by Dotty] Ozone International Hazard Posts: 1269 Registered: 28-7-2005 Location: Good Olde USA Member Is Offline Mood: Integrated "I would love to have one such machine at home, but at the job I would hate it." This. But, Anasazi makes permanent magnet NMR (they are large, not bench-top) in the 90 MHz range. They wanted ~$70k, installed (software, etc.) with a HETCOR probe.

Cheers,

O3

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loveoforganic
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I would imagine with the low field strength you'd have trouble discerning anything with pretty proximal peaks, e.g. many aromatics. Confirming synthesis of an expected compound is about what I'd expect it to be limited to. Probably not much use in determining relative purity or identifying unknown organics with complexity beyond hexane, chloroform, etc.
arsphenamine
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The Anasazi's are refurbished Varian chassis, definitely old school using permanent magnets, back when "real NMR's weighed a half ton". Their power and space requirements are similar to that of a refrigerator.

The picospin45's applications are explained well enough on the web site so any discussion of utility is moot.

One does _not_ develop such a narrowly focused product without assurance of a ready market, particularly in the monied ones like pharmaceuticals or food&beverage.

You can bet that Picospin's first business prospectus for venture capital was preceded by some cogent market research.
watson.fawkes
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 Quote: Originally posted by loveoforganic I would imagine with the low field strength you'd have trouble discerning anything with pretty proximal peaks, e.g. many aromatics. Confirming synthesis of an expected compound is about what I'd expect it to be limited to. Probably not much use in determining relative purity or identifying unknown organics with complexity beyond hexane, chloroform, etc.
Yes, but if you have an application where you don't need to distinguish between them, such as determining contamination levels in a water sample, it will work just fine.

There's far more in the wider chemistry industry than synthesis.
unionised
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 Quote: Originally posted by redox The resolution on this NMR is too low. 45 MHz is far below the minimum (60 MHz is minimal, 100 MHz is good).

I once used one with a 30MHz magnet. Since it was just for a student practical it didn't matter that it was a bit crap.
spirocycle
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^this is what seems to be the general idea that I agree with.
arsphenamine
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 Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes There's far more in the wider chemistry industry than synthesis.
+1

Having a quick, simple test procedure that is undemanding in sample preparation is a Good Thing (tm).

Until spectrophotometric and HPLC tools were ubiquitous, thin layer chromatography was widely used because you got results in 10 minutes.

TLC did not generally effect or display the widest possible separation of compounds on a plate.

Does that mean it is useless?

It was more than adequate to show presence or absence of compounds of interest.

A knowledgable technician can cobble up a TLC test from coffee filters, alcohol, lighter fluid, and a mayo jar.

Low-rez NMR is often all you need for a fast, rough, determination that requires little of no sample preparation, e.g., beverages and fuels.

Of course, if some asshole demands a 300 MHz superconducting NMR for monitoring their reaction kinetics, that's between them and their grant foundation.
loveoforganic
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Fair enough My perspective is admittedly colored - research was all in organic synthesis and generally had access to 350 - 600 MHz
arsphenamine
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 Quote: Originally posted by loveoforganic Fair enough My perspective is admittedly colored - research was all in organic synthesis and generally had access to 350 - 600 MHz
"Fair?"

Sir, you misunderstand me. I did not seek to be fair.

I intended an excoriating rebuke.

(cough, chortle)

Okay, maybe it wasn't.

The existential fact is that research is a small part of the entirety of chemical endeavors.
A rough estimate is the ratio of money spent on research vs. money toward industrial production. Research was as high as 7% in the early 70's.

The industry doesn't generally need research-grade tools, much the same as we don't need analytical reagent grade salt when we cook.

[Edited on 20-3-2011 by arsphenamine]
loveoforganic
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Well in that case...

*&#@ you!
arsphenamine
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 Quote: Originally posted by loveoforganic Well in that case... *&#@ you!
Thank you, sir.

That is the proper order of things.

Lest that be misunderstood ...
johncprice
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Greetings, this is John Price, president and chief scientist at picoSpin. Let me try to answer some of these questions.

Software: The unit has an embedded web server and an Ethernet connector on the rear panel. You can connect it to your LAN and control it from any web browser. After an experiment is finished you download the data and analyze it with an NMR analysis package, such as MNova from Mestrelab Research. We provide a free one-year license to this software with every unit. There are also other packages available that can read our data format (JCAMP-DX).

Pulse sequences: The first units will ship with version 0.8 of the embedded software, which only supports 1-d spectroscopy. Over the first year we will be introducing several other experiment scripts as free upgrades, including T1 and T2 spin-echo sequences. When version 1.0 is released users will be able to write their own experiment scripts. The scripts specify the pulse sequence, the user interface created by the embedded web server, what data is displayed as the experiment is run, what data files are written and so forth.

HTS NMR systems: These may eventually be available, but they will be far more expensive than our unit.

About the capillary: The capillary is a tube with inside diameter of about 0.3 mm and length of about 6 inches. There are inlet and outlet fittings on the front panel. You can fill the capillary however you want, for example with a syringe and a syringe port. The NMR coil is only about 0.5 mm long so the volume of fluid that generates the NMR signal is very small; less than 1 microliter.

About sample size: The small sample size is an intrinsic feature of this technology. It is what allows us to use a small magnet and make the whole system shoe-box sized and much less expensive than any other NMR spectrometer.

About applications: Our product is excellent for classroom use. However, we are also seeing strong interest from industry. Anyone who has small organic molecules at high concentration may have an application. NMR provides unique information, and no other product can provide resolved NMR spectra at any where near this cost.

Regards,
John

[Edited on 24-3-2011 by johncprice]
NurdRage
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Hmm... i wonder if i could get an evaluation model for a few weeks.
spirocycle
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^yea, me too

[Edited on 25-3-2011 by spirocycle]
arsphenamine
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 Quote: Originally posted by johncprice Software: The unit has an embedded web server and an Ethernet connector on the rear panel. You can connect it to your LAN and control it from any web browser. After an experiment is finished you download the data and analyze it with an NMR analysis package, such as MNova from Mestrelab Research. We provide a free one-year license to this software with every unit. There are also other packages available that can read our data format (JCAMP-DX). [Edited on 24-3-2011 by johncprice]

It's an NMR web appliance. How insanely cool is that?!

The bundled MNova software is on a 1-year ticker.
The perpetual license is another ~\$430, not cheap but reasonable for a research tool.

The JCAMP-DX data format is a mature industry standard for spectroscopic data exchange. Everybody uses it these days.
Polverone
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picoSpin started in a home lab

I found this interesting comment about the origins of picoSpin:

 Quote: Greetings, this is John Price, president and chief scientist at picoSpin. I’d be happy to answer any questions you or your readers might have about our spectrometer. By the way, the picoSpin project got its start a few years ago in a home lab. We found that it was not possible to use conventional chemical supply companies. Fortunately, very little chemistry was needed in the beginning and we were able to get by using common solvents available at our local hardware store. I did find a really good book on this subject: “Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments,” by Robert Bruce Thompson.

Even a talented scientist/entrepreneur can't get cooperation from chemical vendors if he doesn't have the imprimatur of an institution.

Both John Price and Robert Bruce Thompson actually have accounts here on SM, though RBT hasn't posted in a while and John Price's one post is earlier in this thread. It is interesting what a small world home chemistry is.

PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition » desktop NMR? Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues