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Dr.Bob
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I just entered a vaccine study to test a vaccine in the clinic, so I may or may not have a vaccine shot, don't know yet. The best part is that once
the study is done, I get a real vaccine shot anyway if not already done. So that will still be fairly fast, and help get fast study results for the
new vaccines. If anyone wants to enter a trial, just google "covid vaccine trials" and your city. It was easy to register, and they are moving
fast now, so quick to get a call back it seems. It is an even faster way to get a vaccine or at least a chance at it.
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Mush
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Australia has become the first country to abandon a vaccine attempt, scrapping a $750 million project after the shot wrongly gave some people positive
HIV test results
https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-vaccine-australi...
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outer_limits
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I hope the vaccination using those products will be worth it.
I am against of all anti-vaccine bullshit but...
coupled with economic ruin and efforts of governments to make it even worse - that looks scary.
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karlos³
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I am really not convinced that pushing those vaccines so heavily and quick on the market is not causing more harm than benefit.
Like here, on page 6: https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download
| Quote: | | there was a numerical imbalance of four cases of Bell’s palsy in the vaccine group compared with no cases in the placebo group
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Calling that a numerical imbalance sounds to me like intentionally making it seem less of a problem than it really is.
I get immediately reminded of the desaster with the swine-flu vaccine "pandemrix" which caused many cases of irreversible narcolepsia in mostly young
people who got vaccinated.
If I can say that without being attacked in turn for, me and neither anyone I spoke with about this, would want to get the vaccine, most said never,
and the others, if they decide to get it, said definitely not at this very early stage.
The potential harm and possible benefits are, so to say, "numerical imbalanced" in my opinion, to use their mode of language.
Lets not forget that thalidomide was well researched and tested in animals before it hit the market, over years, and not rushed at all.... and it
still resulted in such a desastrous scenario.
Honestly, that those vaccines are not only of a differently acting kind is one thing.
But that they rush their release so much to the extent of taking shortcuts instead of what was for a long time the common practice, this simply makes
me uncomfortable.
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Dr.Bob
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Vaccine trials are well known in general, and Pfizer's has been tested on 20,000+ people so far, and works great, and shows few major side effects so
far. Doing a much longer trial would not provide much more data, as there is a deminishing return with more people. If there was no hurry, it
would be worth it, but given that 3000 people are dying each day, I think a certain amount of speed is indicated. And while I know that it mostly
kills older and sicker people, it is both making a number of younger people sick or dead, plus the economic pain of people being afraid of going out
of their house is creating massive stress for small and large businesses over the entire world, creating unemployment, cancelling events, etc.
So I can't imagine not giving people the chance of taking it if they want it. Given that healthcare workers and older/sicker people are the main
priority now, I think that there will plenty of data from vaccinating them before it will be readily available for otherwise healthy and younger
people. So there will be plenty of time to see how it does in others if you want to wait and see. But given that about 300,000 people have already
died of this, their is very little chance of any serious side effects coming close to that number. If you look at the numbers, data, medical
knowledge, taking the vaccine is really a simple decision to do. I've read almost every bit of data available, and even the worst vaccine (which I
am in the trial for) still appears to prevent serious covid in most cases, have few serious side effects, and work well within about 2 weeks.
People do need to be aware that in any clinical trial on 44,000 people, there will be some issues, just like studying any group of 44,000 people for
months. And since they tried to recruit people with existing health issues, older people, and essential workers likely to get Covid, there are
almost certain to be people who get sick, die, or catch covid. Same way when they vaccinate people in bursing homes, there will be some who get sick
or die, just like people do almost every day in nursing homes, where the average stay is about 6 months. So the media is likely to make a fuss, but
the real data is looking for excess deathes, which there are a lot of these days.
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Morgan
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I saw something in the news on TV about India and some people there complaining the big corporations use their people for drug testing, maybe because
it's less liability who knows ...
Whatever the case, it's sometimes true drug companies hide side effects or under report them and overstate their effectiveness while downplaying the
dangers. When something too deleterious becomes apparent, it's taken off the market. i'm chagrined sometimes watching drug commercials in the US where
serious side effects include death as they ramble on about liver and kidney failure, seizures, or other bizarre life threatening situations, the cure
worse than the disease.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/india-needs-more-tra...
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/12/malicious-and-miscon...
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outer_limits
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| Quote: |
So I can't imagine not giving people the chance of taking it if they want it. |
The problem is that many people will be probably forced to do it, as vaccination will become mandatory and some services will be not available for
those who refused.
Karlos mentioned "Pandemrix" which totally changed life of some young people.
At the time when this vaccine was released Health Minister of my country refused to use it as the clinical trials were not completed and the producer
can't guarantee that using it is safe. And this is the case with Pfizer vaccine now. It's completely new, there is almost no safety information (as
the research is not completed yet) and what's worse - if you will encounter any serious side effects you will be alone and nobody will help you (at
least in my country).
So, from the perspective of mid 30s healthy man - when I will get infected (I am not sure if I didn't already...) the risk of complications is not
very significant and probably I wouldn't need even any medical help. When I would take the vaccine which is not really tested I can develop some
serious problems which could probably ruin my life and the only one who takes all the responsibility is me.
Those are not only my thoughts, there are many medical professionals who think in a same way.
If they will introduce any kind of discrimination for all that refused this one particular vaccination I would rather find the doctor who will dump it
down the drain and give me (as well as my family) the certification.
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karlos³
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Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits  |
Those are not only my thoughts, there are many medical professionals who think in a same way.
If they will introduce any kind of discrimination for all that refused this one particular vaccination I would rather find the doctor who will dump it
down the drain and give me (as well as my family) the certification.
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My thoughts exactly too.
They are already discussing to keep people without a vaccination ID from entering supermarkets...
I am thinking of either having luck with my personal doctor who is a very integer person, or going to some shady doctor, maybe even offering money
I never thought that such a situation would ever occur in my life but suddenly it is all dystopian to an extent I never would have imagined.
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Tsjerk
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| Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ |
Lets not forget that thalidomide was well researched and tested in animals before it hit the market, over years, and not rushed at all.... and it
still resulted in such a desastrous scenario. |
Testing procedures have changed drastically since and because of the thalidomide disaster. I can't recall the details but they were enclosed in a
college I was given in my biology years. The testing of thalidomide was done on many species but one, which would have showed the side effects before
any human trails.
The thalidomide disaster gave a huge amount of insight in both biological mechanisms and testing procedures.
Let's not forget the thalidomide testing was done about 70 years ago.
[Edited on 13-12-2020 by Tsjerk]
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Tsjerk
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Please also remind all that the vaccine puts into your body is either something the (any) virus would put into your body, but without the pathogenic
parts, or something that is part of any vaccin already tested on millions and millions of people.
As far as I know there is no vaccine that has ever caused serious side effects.
[Edited on 13-12-2020 by Tsjerk]
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karlos³
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Yet, but mRNA vaccines are something completely new.
I wouldn't trust them until they are widespread in use and shown to be harmless.
After a period of like, at least two years.
Nobody wants a second pandemrix-like accident happening.
I really don't know, as someone being affected by narcolepsia I wouldn't sort this under non-serious side effects :/
And how many swedes got affected, was it 7.000 people who reported those side effects?
I would really call this a serious issue... a life disturbing one, and I hope not to step any boundaries, but possibly life ruining one even.
And those who suffer from that suddenly first require to get a specific treatment and doctors who accept this are rare.
Being tired and never feeling like getting enough sleep on EVERY morning is really not something I would call not serious :/
[Edited on 13-12-2020 by karlos³]
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outer_limits
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| Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ |
Yet, but mRNA vaccines are something completely new.
I wouldn't trust them until they are widespread in use and shown to be harmless.
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Using a well known IT words - they will do the tests on production.
Which means literally that the whole vaccinated population will be their test group, despite those who participated in clinical trials.
2 or 3 years minimum, I totally agree with karlos.
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Tsjerk
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I didn't know about the pandemrix side effects yet... They suck. Apparently the real flu would give the same narcolepsy side effect.
Although mRNA vaccins are new, mRNA drugs aren't.
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macckone
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Tsjerk,
The statement that no vaccine has ever caused serious side effects is clearly false.
Live weakened viruses can cause disease and the polio vaccine has caused outbreaks.
Vaccines primarily cause immune over response.
The dengue fever vaccine in particular can only be given after the person has had dengue fever once or it can lead to a life threating reaction when
exposed to the live virus.
Some vaccines contain things that cause allergic reactions in some people. anaphalaxis and death are pretty serious.
The ebola vaccine can cause fetal abnormalities in pregnant women.
The list of potential problems that can happen with a vaccine is endless.
The new covid vaccines have shown the potential for triggering autoimmune syndrome.
Of course the virus has shown that potential as well as have many other viruses.
But that means some people will be very negatively impacted.
The real question is if it is safer for the vast majority of people.
The pfizer covid vaccine is not yet approved for pregnant women or children in the US.
It has shown a lower incident of immune issues than the moderna vaccine.
Considering the virus kills upwards of 4% of people, and only a handful of serious side effects out of 30+ thousand people, both vaccines are
considerably safer than the virus.
The misconception that children don't die or that only people with risk factors die is clearly false.
Additionally a large percentage of covid victims experience life threating long term issues.
A coworker that had the virus now has both kidney and liver damage.
The kidney damage is recovering but his liver issues are worsening 4 months later.
[Edited on 14-12-2020 by macckone]
[Edited on 14-12-2020 by macckone]
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paulll
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"The misconception that children don't die or that only people with risk factors die is clearly false."
I'd add to that, that,"young, perfectly healthy," people would be well-advised not to get in a vehicle accident or tangle with gravity or be the
victim of violent crime for the foreseeable future, because the safety net that you're used to having available to you is fouled-up and unavailable.
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outer_limits
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https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/pfizers-ceo-hasnt-gotten-his...
He claims he's healthy 59 and doesn't need the vaccine. The governments and airlines want to vaccinate everyone.
He could say that he got it or get the vaccine in public, even if it will be sodium chloride solution (assuming that he's so honest and really don't
want to cut the line).
It be a risky move as it could be compromised.
Now he made a great move - he won't get the vaccine because of other people's needs.
I don't trust people, especially when there is a lot of money
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wg48temp9
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What is in the vaccine that causes an allergic reaction in some people?
Thought the vaccine was an oil emulsion with the oil containing the RNA. I guess the allergic reaction could be to the RNA or oil but that seems
unlikely.
I am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.
Thank goodness for Fleming and the fungi.
Old codger' lives matters, wear a mask and help save them.
Be aware of demagoguery, keep your frontal lobes fully engaged.
I don't know who invented mRNA vaccines but they should get a fancy medal and I hope they made a shed load of money from it.
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Dr.Bob
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If you are allergic to mRNA you would be very sick, as your body makes it comstantly. Likely there is some compoent of the liquid that the mRNA is
dissolved in. There are risks to every single thing you do or don't do. A meteor could come kill you any time, a drunk could run you down, etc.
But scientificly evaluating risk is something that people do very poorly.
For older people or people with health issues, Covid can be very serious. For children or young people, it is pretty rare to cause serious issues,
which is why they avoided testing it in children at first. (This is the opposite of many childhood diseases that can kill children but are not so bad
for adults.) So people under 16 won't be vaccinated for a while. And pregnent women are rarely tested for anything, so they just need to get a shot
before getting pregnent or wait until after the baby is born. But if the people around them vaccinate, then they will be much safer, since most
covid come from friends and family.
I'm perfectly happy to let people opt out of vaccination, at least until everyone who wants it gets it. After that, it will be a while before the
vaccine gets full approval, and it is doubtful that companies and schools can mandate any vaccine under emergency use, other then a few small groups.
But I do think that in the future, if you want to travel internationally, take a cruise, or many other activities, you may eventually need to get it,
at least until it gets under control. Also, about 20% of the US has likely been exposed to Covid already, so we may find that herd immuinity comes
easier now, since they will have some immunity already.
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ordenblitz
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I appreciate the folks that are wary of taking this new unproven vaccine because for every one of you, I get moved up a little farther in the line.
Thank you!
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wg48temp9
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I have found the list of excipients in the vaccine. From www.gov.uk:
ALC-0315 = (4-hydroxybutyl) azanediyl)bis (hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate)
ALC-0159 = 2-[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide
1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine
cholesterol
potassium chloride
potassium dihydrogen phosphate
sodium chloride
disodium hydrogen phosphate dihydrate
sucrose
water
Apparently the ALC-0315 and ALC-1559 are synthetic lipids (oil) so I guess it could be the oil that that triggers the allergic reaction in a few
(<1 in 1,000) people.
Dr Bob@ yes I have lots of RNA in my body but I doubt and hope the sequence is not the same as the RNA in the vaccine. I also know a woman who is
allergic to her own mitocondria. As most of her mitochondria are inside her cells and therefore hidden from her immune system its not a big problem
for her.
I will be taking the vaccine unfortunately it will probably not be available to me for a several months.
I am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.
Thank goodness for Fleming and the fungi.
Old codger' lives matters, wear a mask and help save them.
Be aware of demagoguery, keep your frontal lobes fully engaged.
I don't know who invented mRNA vaccines but they should get a fancy medal and I hope they made a shed load of money from it.
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Tsjerk
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Those are some special lipids, they allow for fusion of the lipid bilayer of the nano-particles (liposomes) the mRNA is packaged in and the lipid
bilayer of our cells. Only that way you can get the mRNA into the cell.
I now also understand the question Karlos asked somewhere around here, he asked why there was luciferase in these vaccins. There indeed was luciferase
and luciferase encoding mRNA used in experiments around the lipids to be used. Luciferase is a nice marker protein, as it catalyses a light emitting
reaction, and there are very specific antibodies against luciferase, allowing for northern blots. I can also imaging there are luciferase antibody
antibodies.
Attachment: COVID-19_mRNA_Vaccine_BNT162b2__UKPAR___PFIZER_BIONTECH__15Dec2020.pdf (2.4MB)
This file has been downloaded 485 times
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zed
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Covid vaccine? Yeah, I got a shot, and I'm damned glad I did.
My State in the USA, has had less COVID deaths than a lot of other States, but we have had just plenty of hospitalizations and deaths. Moreover,
plenty of people have suffered from permanent lung damage, and other complications.
Currently, the State is reporting about 500 new infections per day. Everyday, approximately 20 people die.
Usually, about half of the reported new cases and deaths, are in Portland, and I live in Portland.
I also have a lot of miles on me. Meaning.... I'm not young. And, not being privy to the kind of care members of congress get, if I got really
sick, it could go very badly.
Do I like getting vaccinations? F*** NO!
Did I get one? F*** YES!
Nothing to it. Put on a mask. Drive through the vaccination site with your paperwork.
Roll down your car window, present your shoulder, and Bingo! You're vaccinated!
You are sent to a waiting area, for observation, and provided you don't have an allergic reaction, thirty minutes later, you are back on the road.
There was a sore spot on my shoulder for a few days. I experienced no other problems, and no observable side-effects.
In a few weeks, I'm going back for a second shot. World, here I come!
I've had enough of being cooped up.
P.S....... Oh yeah. I was the Pfizer Vaccine.
[Edited on 10-4-2021 by zed]
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MadHatter
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Pfizer
Zed, got my 2nd shot of Pfizer vaccine
yesterday. Like the 1st shot my shoulder
is a little tender but that'll pass.
From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
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WGTR
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I got the Janssen single shot, and I’m glad that is over with. My parents also got it, and in a couple of weeks we can spend more time together
without worrying about things.
I had more side effects than the usual person, I think. I felt pretty good for a few hours, then became extremely tired, like I was on
antihistamines. This lasted a few days. The day after the shot, I developed body aches and mild fever that lasted for a day or so. I slept 24 hours
that day.
It’s possible that I already had COVID before and was asymptomatic. I spent time with a neighbor one month ago who tested positive that next
morning. We spent maybe a hour sitting next to each other about 2 feet apart. I never had any symptoms and tested negative at the time. Either I
was asymptomatic and had a false negative test, or already had the illness before and was immune.
I wonder if you have already had the illness, if you get the vaccine are you more likely to get side effects? Like anything else, I imagine that the
answer is, “it depends”.
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violet sin
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My second shot of moderna was on Wednesday.
My shoulder hurt, but it was on lunch time and there were more warehouse duties before the day was over. Each time I had 4 hrs of stacking and packing
boxes from pallets. No headache etc. beyond my allergies with the field grass drying out here.
I'd say ouch if you pushed the spot of the shot.. really, no complaints here.
My mother doesn't want the shot and my son it going back to school in person. He started 1st grade online and fingers crossed, never has to deal with
this again. One can hope anyhow.
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