Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  ..  3    5  
Author: Subject: Violuric acid salts (fantastic colors and variety)
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-3-2021 at 06:48


Lithium violurate

received_3396237413810175.jpeg - 258kB




A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-3-2021 at 07:29


Gallium violurate. It has more light colour than indium violurate.


received_465626811159132.jpeg - 41kB




A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-3-2021 at 07:35


Quote: Originally posted by Bezaleel  



Indium

It seems that indium is chemically too basic to easily form a salt with violuric acid. My estimate is that this will count all the more for Re, Mo and W. I decided that I will not make the uranyl salt, because of the precautions necessary to safely work with it. I consider cerium, which is interesting because it is a coloured RE and also has a stable +IV oxidation state, and aluminium.

I did it easily, dissolving the carbonate in acid




A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
RustyShackleford
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 125
Registered: 10-12-2020
Location: Northern Europe
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-3-2021 at 08:01


Since there have now been so many metal salts made, i put together a periodic table . There is still a lot of them to be made :)
group 1 is complete!
for group 2 only beryllium is missing.




nedladdning.png - 4MB

[Edited on 27-3-2021 by RustyShackleford]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-3-2021 at 08:23


Perfect. I have beryllium i will make it



A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-3-2021 at 09:11


Mercury(I) violurate. I used mercury(I) nitrate. I used excess nitrate. The required amount was dissolved in the acid and the excess crystals stayed undissolved. Then a pink suspension was formed, I poured it into another flask and filtered it.


PicsArt_03-27-09.05.36.png - 1.1MB




A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-3-2021 at 09:29


Divide the hydrate plate and for example bivalent mercury is inserted there. Or think of something else. I really like periodic table idea.



A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bezaleel
National Hazard
****




Posts: 392
Registered: 28-2-2009
Member Is Offline

Mood: transitional

[*] posted on 27-3-2021 at 16:01


Quote: Originally posted by vano  
Quote: Originally posted by Bezaleel  

Indium

It seems that indium is chemically too basic to easily form a salt with violuric acid. My estimate is that this will count all the more for Re, Mo and W. I decided that I will not make the uranyl salt, because of the precautions necessary to safely work with it. I consider cerium, which is interesting because it is a coloured RE and also has a stable +IV oxidation state, and aluminium.

I did it easily, dissolving the carbonate in acid

I find it odd to say the least that the carbonate dissolves easily, whereas the hydroxide takes quite some time to fully dissolve. In particular, my hydroxide was not heated and was always in a liquid, so it never dried. It should be easily reacting.
Quote: Originally posted by RustyShackleford  
Shame that the indium didnt form a solid, the solution looks real nice though. Also im quite suprised the Sm and Pr are so similar in color, from all the other salts i woulve expected a bigger difference. They both look quite nice though, thank you for taking the time to produce the salts and post pictures!

It did form a solid. Two, actually. After filtering off the excess of indium hydroxide, the solution first gave a crop of bright red coloured crystals, while the solution turned from purple-blue to a deep dark blue.
IMG_3674_adj.JPG - 375kB

At one point I noticed that no more crystals appeared, although more of the liquid had evaporated. I then poured off the blue liquid and continued to evaporate the dark blue liquid over NaOH (as before). When almost no liquid had remained, dark blue crystals formed. When standing longer in the desiccator, they turned off-white, like the colour of violuric acid itself. On standing outside the desiccator for a few days, the dark blue colour came back. The photo below shows the red and blue compounds I obtained.
IMG_3704_adj.JPG - 314kB

I was unsure whether the blue or red compound maybe was ammonium violurate, since I used ammonia to make the indium hydroxide. To double check, I took the indium hydroxide which had not dissolved in the experiment. It was rinsed on a filter, until almost all of the colour from the dark blue liquid had washed out. A spatula tip of violuric acid was added to the washed hydroxide and water was added to obtain a purple solution. After stirring on a 70C hotplate for 1 hour, the colour had darkened to a more intense purple. The mixture was poured into a pointed flask to let the residue settle.
IMG_3695_det_adj.JPG - 156kB

The purple liquid was evaporated in a desiccator over NaOH, as usual. To my surprise, this time also red crystals and a blue solution were obtained, just as in the first experiment.
IMG_3730_adj.JPG - 316kB

I don't believe that either the red or the blue compound is an ammonium compound, but I haven't done any testing.
Quote: Originally posted by vano  
Thanks. This is indium violurate. Brown- dark red colour. I used indium carbonate. Carbonates are better.
[Edited on 27-3-2021 by vano]

Could it be that you have a mix of the red and blue solids I got? Is your sample anhydrous?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bezaleel
National Hazard
****




Posts: 392
Registered: 28-2-2009
Member Is Offline

Mood: transitional

[*] posted on 27-3-2021 at 16:15


Quote: Originally posted by RustyShackleford  
Since there have now been so many metal salts made, i put together a periodic table . There is still a lot of them to be made :)
group 1 is complete!
for group 2 only beryllium is missing.
[Edited on 27-3-2021 by RustyShackleford]

Nice work! :)
Maybe it's a good idea to write the element symbols into the pictures.

The europium solution is not representative. It was made from EuCl3, which inhibits formation of larger amounts of Eu-violurate. I regained some violuric acid from the failed Pr synth. If you wish, I can make the Eu salt from Eu2(CO3)3, or I can try Ce or Er, whichever you prefer.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-3-2021 at 22:02


I had indium nitrate solution and i made carbonate from it. Also some metals for example indium produce hydroxyindates and this is why I prefer carbobate. I also avoided the presence of other cations in the solution as much as possible



A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 30-3-2021 at 03:47


Beryllium violurate.

1)Solution was green
2) hydrated salt was yellow
3) anhydrous is brown
4) When I finished synthesis, I decided to wash the flask, but when I poured water it turned purple. It's pretty weird.

received_135842071808916.jpeg - 157kB received_920649712034662.jpeg - 142kB received_444734296750483.jpeg - 140kB received_560091088240420.jpeg - 184kB




A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 30-3-2021 at 07:53



Silver violurate. Solution and anhydrous. I think red particles are hydrates.

PicsArt_03-30-07.49.33.jpg - 324kB received_878483599379459.jpeg - 189kB




A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Texium
Administrator
********




Posts: 3429
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline

Mood: Triturated

[*] posted on 30-3-2021 at 08:40


Quote: Originally posted by vano  
Beryllium violurate.

1)Solution was green
2) hydrated salt was yellow
3) anhydrous is brown
4) When I finished synthesis, I decided to wash the flask, but when I poured water it turned purple. It's pretty weird.
Beryllium is a strange element. It doesn’t follow the same trend as other alkaline earth metals. Its compounds are covalent rather than ionic, and readily undergo hydrolysis. Most, if not all, of the pictures that you posted are probably not “beryllium violurate” in the sense that you’re describing.



Come check out the Official Sciencemadness Wiki
They're not really active right now, but here's my YouTube channel and my blog.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 30-3-2021 at 09:06


Yes you are right. I think 4 is hydrolyzed compound.



A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bedlasky
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 769
Registered: 15-4-2019
Location: Angband
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 30-3-2021 at 09:07


Quote: Originally posted by vano  
Beryllium violurate.

1)Solution was green
2) hydrated salt was yellow
3) anhydrous is brown
4) When I finished synthesis, I decided to wash the flask, but when I poured water it turned purple. It's pretty weird.



I think that green and yellow colours are due to some complex formation. Hydrated salt is purple according to behavior in point 4.

Quote: Originally posted by vano  

Silver violurate. Solution and anhydrous. I think red particles are hydrates.



How can you be so sure that silver salt is anhydrous? Red colour can be caused by different particle size.




If you are interested in aqueous inorganic chemistry look at https://colourchem.wordpress.com/main-page/

"An old friend once told me something that gave me great comfort. Something he had read. He said that Mozart, Beethoven and Chopin never died. They simply became music." Dr. Robert Ford, Westworld
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 30-3-2021 at 09:12


Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  


How can you be so sure that silver salt is anhydrous? Red colour can be caused by different particle size.


The color changed and faded. We have talked about the size and color of the particles before, in this case the red particles were on the walls of the flask, while the dark bottom, i.e. the red, lost less water.




A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 30-3-2021 at 09:16


Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  


I think that green and yellow colours are due to some complex formation. Hydrated salt is purple according to behavior in point 4.


I think its hydrolyzed. I may try to make hydrate in the future as well. This time bivalent mercury and cadmium are in the queue.




A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 30-3-2021 at 10:43


Mercury(II) violurate. I used mercury oxide.


received_475910340268772.jpeg - 215kB




A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 31-3-2021 at 09:43
Just dilute solution of the acid


There were acid particles on the walls of the package. I added water and got this color, then poured it into a vial. The color is well visible on a white background. I think the sharp change in color during hydrolysis is also caused by this.

received_1176326226136615.jpeg - 252kB received_487190279134709.jpeg - 351kB




A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
RustyShackleford
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 125
Registered: 10-12-2020
Location: Northern Europe
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 1-4-2021 at 07:48


Strange, I just tested dissolving some of the very same batch i sent you and its an almost completely clear solution, slight hint of pink (likely some residual sodium contamination). Perhaps you used a metal spoon or a contaminated plastic one at some point, or maybe the baggie i sent had some contaminant dust on the inside.

IMG_20210401_173534.jpg - 730kB

Also here is the updated perodic table of violurate salt.
Thank you Vano for your tremendous contribution!



periodic.png - 4.3MB

[Edited on 1-4-2021 by RustyShackleford]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 1-4-2021 at 09:07


Thank you! It was a good experience. I have never used metal spoon. I always pour the powder directly from the package onto a sheet of paper. If this was caused by the plastic, since it was inside for a long time, then it is interesting. I rule out the presence of sodium ions in the solution as I have not used any sodium compounds.

Did you spill silver nitrate on your hand?

[Edited on 1-4-2021 by vano]




A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
RustyShackleford
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 125
Registered: 10-12-2020
Location: Northern Europe
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 1-4-2021 at 09:12


Quote: Originally posted by vano  

Did you spill silver nitrate on your hand?

yes haha, ive been purifying some teeth amalgam powder recently, i think i touched the inside of the beaker while washing it.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 1-4-2021 at 09:28


:D. Once almost half of my hands became black, in the past I was very fond of separating pure silver from alloys. You know there are ways, but from personal experience it takes about 4 hours to put your hand in the water to remove the black layer from the skin.



A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bezaleel
National Hazard
****




Posts: 392
Registered: 28-2-2009
Member Is Offline

Mood: transitional

[*] posted on 1-4-2021 at 16:17


Quote: Originally posted by RustyShackleford  
Strange, I just tested dissolving some of the very same batch i sent you and its an almost completely clear solution, slight hint of pink (likely some residual sodium contamination). Perhaps you used a metal spoon or a contaminated plastic one at some point, or maybe the baggie i sent had some contaminant dust on the inside.
I consistently get the same results. I use a nickel spatula, but I can hardly believe that nickel oxide would indeed react with the violuric acid.

Quote: Originally posted by RustyShackleford  
Also here is the updated perodic table of violurate salt.
Thank you Vano for your tremendous contribution!
[Edited on 1-4-2021 by RustyShackleford]
Great - thanks Rusty!

In the meantime I prepared aluminium violurate, which is another medium red compound, and reddish pink in solution (photos to follow).

I also retested the indium compounds I obtained and it gave me the same results as before. First a crop of red crystals is deposited and after this has stopped and the solution is left to crystallise in a separate beaker, a crop of blue crystals is formed. On re-dissolving these red and blue compounds, the same red and blue compounds are formed, so they do not exists in equilibrium with each other. Together with the red compound, some violuric acid also seems to crystallise out. My guess is that I obtained basic indium compounds and that vano has obtained the normal, non-basic indium violurate.

IMG_3775_adj_detail.JPG - 132kB IMG_3772_adj_detail.JPG - 219kB
View user's profile View All Posts By User
vano
National Hazard
****




Posts: 437
Registered: 22-3-2019
Location: Georgia, Kutaisi
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 1-4-2021 at 19:52


Nice work Bezaleel



A narrow road cannot keep back Death, nor a rocky one; by him all are levelled, weak and strong-hearted; in the end the earth unites in one place youth and greybeard. Better a glorious death than shameful life!
—The Knight in the Panther's Skin
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  ..  3    5  

  Go To Top