Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
Author: Subject: Plant killer
urenthesage
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 71
Registered: 21-2-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-10-2021 at 12:48
Plant killer


Im looking for a metal salt or complex that can act as a long term biocide for plants and mosses. Any suggestions that arent a long term concern?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
B(a)P
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 29-9-2019
Member Is Offline

Mood: Confined

[*] posted on 19-10-2021 at 15:05


Sodium chlorate will do the trick.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fery
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 700
Registered: 27-8-2019
Location: Czechoslovakia
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 19-10-2021 at 20:49


as B(a)P wrote, NaClO3 is very effective and long lasting
for short term just spray plants with vinegar (not the soil, spray plants, their leaves, in dry days, not before raining)
for getting rid of mosses use FeSO4*7H2O




If there is a heaven, it seems not to be materially based. Does chemistry exist there and if yes, how does it look like? Are there good souls well supplied with laboratory equipment, glass, chemicals and information?
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
zed
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2269
Registered: 6-9-2008
Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
Member Is Offline

Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord

[*] posted on 20-10-2021 at 00:06


CDX Plywood. Older stock is better. Got any surplus plywood? It isn't a metal salt, but it sure works.

Just lay it down, and forget about it. CDX in soil contact usta last 15 years or so. Want things to grow again?

Just remove the plywood.

The old Italian ladies usta devitalize the soil of their parking strips with Lye. Drano will do.

After treatment, the soil becomes rock hard. A concrete-like moonscape, that can be maintained in sterile

order, by an occasional sweeping.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
macckone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2129
Registered: 1-3-2013
Location: Over a mile high
Member Is Offline

Mood: Electrical

[*] posted on 20-10-2021 at 08:30


sodium chlorate is the classic.
most chlorates would work.
copper chlorate might be more effective.
copper sulfate kills roots.

edit:
copper naphthenate

[Edited on 20-10-2021 by macckone]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
draculic acid69
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1312
Registered: 2-8-2018
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 21-10-2021 at 21:30


Read somewhere recently sugar was used as a weed killer
View user's profile View All Posts By User
barbs09
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 109
Registered: 22-1-2009
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 22-10-2021 at 00:36


Roundup!!
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fyndium
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1179
Registered: 12-7-2020
Location: Not in USA
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 22-10-2021 at 02:07


Doesn't ordinary sodium chloride do the trick? Plants hate sodium, anyway.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
B(a)P
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 29-9-2019
Member Is Offline

Mood: Confined

[*] posted on 22-10-2021 at 02:26


Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium  
Doesn't ordinary sodium chloride do the trick? Plants hate sodium, anyway.


You need a lot more sodium chloride than chlorate. If you want a permanent dead patch devoid of vegetation sodium chloride could be a good option.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Antiswat
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1585
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline

Mood: dangerously practical

[*] posted on 22-10-2021 at 03:55


interesting Zed with the NaOH thing
soil contains a lot of aluminium oxide, which is soluble in NaOH
i have thought of using dirt to make cement for a while, and i suppose this might be hint that it could be pretty great idea
might also be doable to use dirt for polishing as aluminium oxide is quite hard, or even for paint removal, with high pressure air or water jet

i recall hearing plants dont like HCl either, it seems anything to skew the pH might work, maybe calcium hydroxide can do too?
or maybe dig down some detcord and have a go with it




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fyndium
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1179
Registered: 12-7-2020
Location: Not in USA
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 23-10-2021 at 02:28


Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  

You need a lot more sodium chloride than chlorate. If you want a permanent dead patch devoid of vegetation sodium chloride could be a good option.


Since sodium chlorate is completely banned in Europe nowadays and it would cost tons to make a little, meanwhile sodium chloride is available dirt cheap in large bags, I wouldn't mind compensating. Some areas, like gravel yards are places where you don't want any plants, so longer term devoidness would be desirable. It would quickly drain off by rainwater, so likely it needs to be reapplied once or twice a year, perhaps.

[Edited on 23-10-2021 by Fyndium]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
phlogiston
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1350
Registered: 26-4-2008
Location: Neon Thorium Erbium Lanthanum Neodymium Sulphur
Member Is Offline

Mood: pyrophoric

[*] posted on 23-10-2021 at 11:49


Considering the high solubility of sodium chlorate, why does it last so long? Wouldn't rain wash it away pretty quickly?

[Edited on 23-10-2021 by phlogiston]




-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
View user's profile View All Posts By User
katyushaslab
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 81
Registered: 19-1-2021
Member Is Offline

Mood: precipitating

[*] posted on 23-10-2021 at 13:00


Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium  


Since sodium chlorate is completely banned in Europe nowadays and it would cost tons to make a little, meanwhile sodium chloride is available dirt cheap in large bags, I wouldn't mind compensating.

[Edited on 23-10-2021 by Fyndium]


Producing lots of sodium chlorate from sodium chloride is pretty cheap? Just run some current through it for a few days to a week, keeping it warm, and it will form chlorate.

If you don't care about the product being clean enough for further synthetic use or pyrotechnic use, you don't even have to be particularly careful about current control, electrodes, etc. A couple of graphite welding rods will do the trick just fine.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
draculic acid69
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1312
Registered: 2-8-2018
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 25-10-2021 at 04:53


Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium  
Quote: Originally posted by B(a)P  

You need a lot more sodium chloride than chlorate. If you want a permanent dead patch devoid of vegetation sodium chloride could be a good option.


Since sodium chlorate is completely banned in Europe nowadays and it would cost tons to make a little, meanwhile sodium chloride is available dirt cheap in large bags, I wouldn't mind compensating. Some areas, like gravel yards are places where you don't want any plants, so longer term devoidness would be desirable. It would quickly drain off by rainwater, so likely it needs to be reapplied once or twice a year, perhaps.

[Edited on 23-10-2021 by Fyndium]


I tried using nacl to kill some seeds and it worked but exactly as pointed out above
it doesn't last as it washes away.weeds are growing back right where the salt was applied a month or two later.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bedlasky
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 956
Registered: 15-4-2019
Location: In Turgon's hidden city
Member Is Offline

Mood: Unavailable

[*] posted on 25-10-2021 at 05:46


Sodium chlorate is available in a 40 % mixture with NaCl.



View user's profile View All Posts By User
katyushaslab
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 81
Registered: 19-1-2021
Member Is Offline

Mood: precipitating

[*] posted on 25-10-2021 at 08:22


Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky  
Sodium chlorate is available in a 40 % mixture with NaCl.


Unfortunately those weedkillers have been outlawed for quite some time in the EU :(
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fery
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 700
Registered: 27-8-2019
Location: Czechoslovakia
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 25-10-2021 at 10:42


katyushaslab - as Bedlasky wrote, 39,9% NaClO3 + 60,1 % NaCl is legal
no restriction in selling, see this:
https://www.funchem.cz/www-funchem-cz/eshop/1-1-ANORGANICKE-...
in comparison with pure NaClO3 which is restricted (concentration 40% and more is restricted)
https://www.funchem.cz/www-funchem-cz/eshop/1-1-ANORGANICKE-...
When I was small boy my good grandma sometimes bought a 1 kg can of Travex which was approx 50:50 mixture of NaClO3:NaCl
She also used CaC2 to get rid of rodents digging tunnels in her garden (the active product was phosphine), that was another cool compound for my chemistry experiments. Naphthalene balls into pockets of coats in the wardrobe. Happy childhood.




If there is a heaven, it seems not to be materially based. Does chemistry exist there and if yes, how does it look like? Are there good souls well supplied with laboratory equipment, glass, chemicals and information?
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
katyushaslab
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 81
Registered: 19-1-2021
Member Is Offline

Mood: precipitating

[*] posted on 25-10-2021 at 23:06


The argument to relocate to .cz keeps looking more and more compelling every time I look at it! Not an option for the foreseeable though, and the language is bloody hard.

Does that site (funchem) sell to the rest of the EU? Looks super useful.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fery
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 700
Registered: 27-8-2019
Location: Czechoslovakia
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 26-10-2021 at 04:29


Hi katyushaslab, funchem is a company in Czech republic but it sells also to the neighboring Slovak republic. They have a bank account also in EUR currency. I was buying from them more than 2 years ago, maybe 3y, or 4... time passes quickly. You can probably sent them an email with your question. The email addresses are available at this page:
https://www.funchem.cz/www-funchem-cz/2-O-NAS
there are these 2 emails:
funchem@funchem.cz
ucetni@funchem.cz
IIRC whenever I sent an email to the first address they always answered only from the second one.




If there is a heaven, it seems not to be materially based. Does chemistry exist there and if yes, how does it look like? Are there good souls well supplied with laboratory equipment, glass, chemicals and information?
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
AJKOER
Radically Dubious
*****




Posts: 2999
Registered: 7-5-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 1-12-2021 at 08:11


OK, while chlorates work here, be aware that they are also the center of law suits for cancer in people as a result of exposure during application (see, for example, https://www.klinespecter.com/roundup-cancer-lawsuits.html?gc... ).

Advice, AVOID. Do use compounds that are more people friendly (meaning possibly don't kill you also in the long run).

Note, copper salts are more people friendly at low concentrations but also highly effective here (and perhaps overly so, capable of killing trees including your neighbors from water runoff).

My advice, make a copper salts in a galvanic reaction with a carbon source, copper metal, sea salt, dilute 3% H2O2 and lemon juice. Jump start the reaction for a few minutes in a microwave. Intense coloration will become apparent for your copper citrate/ascorbate mix.

I would extensively dilute the mixture and cautiously apply to areas where rain induced runoff will not cause a major concern.

Note: Small animals, fish, worms,..., are likely to be impacted (as in killed,...). Also, application of Baking Soda (NaHCO3) could form an insoluble copper carbonate that may mitigate/reduce the toxicity of the copper mixture if deemed necessary.

In summary, in my opinion (noting that I have not actually used it in practice in a garden setting, only for insect control), an inexpensive powerful but mostly people friendly agent that must be applied prudently and an associated possible remedy to mitigate effects. I suspect also that the copper salts can cause the incidental killing of shrubs

[Edited on 1-12-2021 by AJKOER]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Tsjerk
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2744
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mood

[*] posted on 2-12-2021 at 02:29


You are confusing chlorate with glyphospate.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
AJKOER
Radically Dubious
*****




Posts: 2999
Registered: 7-5-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-12-2021 at 03:33


Yes, thanks, the alluded to lawsuit relates to ROUNDUP, as mentioned in this thread, with claimed problematic active and allegedly 'inert' ingredients as well.

Here is a reference more precisely on NaClO3, "Acute renal toxicity of sodium chlorate: Redox imbalance, enhanced DNA damage, metabolic alterations and inhibition of brush border membrane enzymes in rats" at https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30144278/ .

Potentially people unfriendly, in my opinion.

My advice remains: avoid exposure.

[Edited on 2-12-2021 by AJKOER]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Sulaiman
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 3220
Registered: 8-2-2015
Location: UK ... on extended Holiday in Malaysia
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 2-12-2021 at 03:42


For large areas I would not want copper salts as they are too long lasting,
and toxic to many lifeforms.
I would not use any heavy metal salts.

For my gravel drive glyphosate works on most weeds, but needs two or three applications per year.
Acids did very little, (except maybe neutralising themselves by dissolving a little gravel ;)
sodium and/or potassium hydroxide really keep the weeds down for a long time, and have a small cumulative effect.

I've been away from my house for over two years now and photos show some weeds have grown in/through the gravel.

to clear an area of weeds I have used black plastic sheets to deprive the soil of water and reduce sunlight.
100% effective and eco-friendly (except that the plastic is not really re-usable)

[Edited on 2-12-2021 by Sulaiman]




CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
View user's profile View All Posts By User
AJKOER
Radically Dubious
*****




Posts: 2999
Registered: 7-5-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-12-2021 at 04:01


Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
For large areas I would not want copper salts as they are too long lasting,
and toxic to many lifeforms.
I would not use any heavy metal salts.
.....
[Edited on 2-12-2021 by Sulaiman]


NEW RECIPE

Perhaps a long strip of exposed copper wire (or copper coins) placed over the treatment area?

To expedite results, add a mix of vinegar, dilute H2O2 and sea salt together with crushed charcoal onto the copper source.

When issued resolved, as you pull up the wire, add Baking Soda.

This path likely constitutes a slower/moderated transition of copper ions and a targeted treatment to basic copper carbonate upon project completion.

As such. this process may offer more treatment control over, say, a quick administration of a soluble copper salt (which otherwise could be created rapidly in a microwave assisted process with the cited agents).

[Edited on 2-12-2021 by AJKOER]
View user's profile View All Posts By User

  Go To Top