OneEyedPyro
Hazard to Others
Posts: 279
Registered: 7-10-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Tripple stage FAE?
We all know FAEs work by utilizing ambient oxygen, but what if a cloud of liquid oxygen was dispersed followed by the fuel and then detonated? Has
this been tried?
I'm guessing it could produce a more potent device considering most fuels in FAEs aren't as fuel dense as they could be (ethylene oxide for example)
and the fuel air cloud could be much more dense resulting in higher VoD...
|
|
|
SWIM
National Hazard
Posts: 970
Registered: 3-9-2017
Member Is Offline
|
|
Elon Musk has done this a few times.
But not on purpose.
|
|
|
MineMan
National Hazard
Posts: 998
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
One eyed. It would not be efficient. Not to mention storage of cyro. You want to use the air because it’s free, and because you can disperse it
without it igniting
|
|
|
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
Posts: 1335
Registered: 2-9-2014
Location: Technion Haifa
Member Is Offline
Mood: cool.gif
|
|
I Agree. Under combat conditions, storing such cryogenic ammunition would be almost impossible.
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite (2024)
|
|
|
OneEyedPyro
Hazard to Others
Posts: 279
Registered: 7-10-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  | | One eyed. It would not be efficient. Not to mention storage of cyro. You want to use the air because it’s free, and because you can disperse it
without it igniting |
I understand the difficulties of storing LOX and how unacceptable of a risk it would be on a large scale such as a military setting. I suppose I'm
thinking more about concept than practical application.
With that said, I can see how it could be very effective under conditions where there isn't enough space for the cloud of fuel to properly disperse
like a tunnel or small structure.
I wonder what a dense cloud of aluminum powder in a highly oxygen enriched environment would do. Preignition would likely be a problem, still fun to
think about though. 
[Edited on 30-4-2022 by OneEyedPyro]
|
|
|
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
Posts: 1335
Registered: 2-9-2014
Location: Technion Haifa
Member Is Offline
Mood: cool.gif
|
|
I know a lot of more fun things than scattering oxygen in a tunnel ...
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite (2024)
|
|
|
SWIM
National Hazard
Posts: 970
Registered: 3-9-2017
Member Is Offline
|
|
Your posts kick ass, L of L.
Wish I had the balls to get into energetics, but for me the challenge is making my projects not explode and I haven't always succeeded at that.
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
Making a tripple stage FAE would be very hard and probably pointless/counterproductive...
A FAE is composed of a dispersable combustible fuel with high combustion temperature, intermediary ignition/flash point (thus volatility) and
intermediary flamability. It can be a fine powder or liquid.
It is based on the observation of plant explosion that are dealing with fine dust (like flour, suggar, wood, aluminium, magnesium,... that sometimes
explode with very great violence (detonate) or initiate severe fire... also inspired by diesel droplets compression with air into a motor.
So the FAE bomb contains a tinier high explosive bomb (ideally with a low oxygen content and a low explosion temperature) to rupture the fuel
container surrounding it and disperse it all arround in a fog like cloud then a second tinier explosive with a high explosion temperature and pressure
wave compress and set the dispersed cloud in fire and reach detonating rate ... the timing, design and dimensions are very important...adding an extra
very big pure oxygen container will simply add to the design complexity and timing complexity... yielding premature or postmature explosion.
For example TNT detonated to disperse a very big Al/Mg powder drum or a Al/Mg foam soaked with TNT... with a delayed ignition device.
The aim of a FAE is to get more power out of a defined volume/weight of fuel bomb by getting the oxidizer on site and thus not inside the bomb.... no
transport of the oxidizer weight... your proposition goes against this and there is no benefit over a conventionnal large bomb with a usual explosive.
Imagine you have a bomb of 1000kg (1 ton) ... this bomb is made of a balanced explosive that is a CHNO one...
Let us imagine two extremes cases with no N inside thus the CHO explosives family ...one with only hydrogen and one with only carbon inside as fuels
thus a HO and a CO explosives and oxygen balanced explosive.
The result of the detonation will be H2O on one side and CO2 on the other one (could be CO but it would burn further into CO2 and not be oxygen
balanced thus displaying a lower than maximum output).
H2 + 1/2O2 --> H2O (2g H2 + 16g O2 provide 18g H2O)
C+ O2 --> CO2 (12g C + 32g O2 provide 44g CO2)
You see that in the first case your fuel is only 1/9 of the weight of the bomb and 8/9 is the oxidizer weight; in the second example the fuel is about
1/4 of the bomb weight and the oxidizer accounts for 3/4.
As a rule the amount of oxidizer in an oxygen balanced explosive is larger than the fuel.
This means that if you have a 1 ton bomb with only the fuel and that you don't have to get the oxidiser embarqued (found on site during explosion) it
is as if you had a 4 to 9 times bigger bomb for 4-9 times less launch energy
Of course assuming you have fine tunned the design, dimensions, delay between first and second explosion...
All that benefit is anihilated with an extra O2 tank.
Also the FAE works as a thermobaric weapon by an explosion heat expansion at first ... and implosion effect because the fuel scavenge the oxygen (1/5)
of air... if the detonation product trap the oxygen and maybe the nitrogen as solids it can generate a very strong suck back effect in the cooling
detonation zone...
Typically Aluminium and/or Magnesium can form solid oxides and nitrides...those solids have densities much higher than gases (thus taking about 1000
times less volume by weight).
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
Posts: 1335
Registered: 2-9-2014
Location: Technion Haifa
Member Is Offline
Mood: cool.gif
|
|
Ingenious calculation. Oxygen in the canon charge is a like carrying wood to the forest ....
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite (2024)
|
|
|
MineMan
National Hazard
Posts: 998
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If LL and Phil Z get married that is one wedding I want to attend. The energetic child’s born from that Union I can’t wait to adopt.
|
|
|
Fantasma4500
International Hazard
Posts: 1677
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline
Mood: dangerously practical
|
|
just a large propane tank set off with some knowledge has very extreme destruction potential
i really cant remember even the approximates but a large propane tank ruptured and then set off with know-how on how to do this - the destruction
potential is relative to many tonnes
i read a PDF on it, its difficult to pull off, and very few militants have been instructed properly in it
i do believe if 2 large tanks would be ruptured- maybe the propane one at higher altitude, it would work- how much more efficiency? thats a good
question. likely the timing would be less significant- but how realistic would it be? iirc propane requires 5-6 parts oxygen per part propane
|
|
|
MineMan
National Hazard
Posts: 998
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | just a large propane tank set off with some knowledge has very extreme destruction potential
i really cant remember even the approximates but a large propane tank ruptured and then set off with know-how on how to do this - the destruction
potential is relative to many tonnes
i read a PDF on it, its difficult to pull off, and very few militants have been instructed properly in it
i do believe if 2 large tanks would be ruptured- maybe the propane one at higher altitude, it would work- how much more efficiency? thats a good
question. likely the timing would be less significant- but how realistic would it be? iirc propane requires 5-6 parts oxygen per part propane
|
I suppose one could be detonated a certain distance from the other and the shockwave could collide. Timing is very easy with high speed cameras and
electronic detonators.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
