CharlesWood
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 15-4-2017
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Conversion of Manganese Sulphate to Acetate
The basic reaction (from the Crystal People) is
2CH3COOH + MnSO4 = Mn(CH3COO)2↓ + H2SO4
They seem to not bother with the H2SO4 and crystallize directly using low temperature. I assume leaving reasonably strong sulphuric Acid behind?
Do I get any advantage by adding CaCO3 to the mix to neutralise the H2SO4?
Will the potential presence of Ca(CH3COO)2 cause problems in getting pure Mn(CH3COO)2 by fractional crystalization?
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 473
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
Dude just react manganese sulfate with sodium carbonate or bicarbonate to get manganese carbonate. Then filter off the manganese carbonate then react
with acetic acid. The yield is higher using this.
|
|
|
njl
National Hazard
Posts: 609
Registered: 26-11-2019
Location: under the sycamore tree
Member Is Offline
Mood: ambivalent
|
|
Maybe even direct reaction with sodium or calcium acetate would work although these might leave contaminated manganese acetate.
Reflux condenser?? I barely know her!
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4508
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  | | Dude just react manganese sulfate with sodium carbonate or bicarbonate to get manganese carbonate. Then filter off the manganese carbonate then react
with acetic acid. The yield is higher using this. |
Agreed. And you won’t need to use an excess of
concentrated acetic acid. Going through the carbonate is far more efficient and practical. You can also make extra carbonate to save and use to make
other manganese salts with ease.
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1693
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
On the other hand such precipitated compounds can be hard to work with in larger amounts. Which in turn makes it hard to wash out the sodium. So the
direct route sounds very interesting if you want large amounts of pure product.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
|
|
|
SplendidAcylation
Hazard to Others
Posts: 196
Registered: 28-10-2018
Location: Starving in some deep mystery
Member Is Offline
Mood: No one I think is in my tree.
|
|
I feel like a bit of an idiot here, but can someone explain how this reaction is even possible?
The equilibrium should lie so far to the left as to make this unfeasible, or am I missing something obvious? 
|
|
|
Bedlasky
International Hazard
Posts: 1219
Registered: 15-4-2019
Location: Period 5, group 6
Member Is Offline
Mood: Volatile
|
|
I tried to make mangense(II) acetate once via MnSO4 and Na2CO3, but it turned brown during evaporation of water.
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6218
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: Unmoved
Member Is Offline
Mood: Organised
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by SplendidAcylation | I feel like a bit of an idiot here, but can someone explain how this reaction is even possible?
The equilibrium should lie so far to the left as to make this unfeasible, or am I missing something obvious? |
That was my thought too. But I guess, if manganese (II) acetate is extremely insoluble (I have not looked it up), then it would precipitate and be
removed from the equilibrium. But is it really insoluble?? I am going to be a bit skeptical here.
| Quote: Originally posted by Bedlasky | | I tried to make mangense(II) acetate once via MnSO4 and Na2CO3, but it turned brown during evaporation of water. |
Desiccation via vacuum is probably a better option. Mn(II) does tend to oxidise if oxygen is present.
|
|
|
SplendidAcylation
Hazard to Others
Posts: 196
Registered: 28-10-2018
Location: Starving in some deep mystery
Member Is Offline
Mood: No one I think is in my tree.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1 | | Quote: Originally posted by SplendidAcylation | I feel like a bit of an idiot here, but can someone explain how this reaction is even possible?
The equilibrium should lie so far to the left as to make this unfeasible, or am I missing something obvious? |
That was my thought too. But I guess, if manganese (II) acetate is extremely insoluble (I have not looked it up), then it would precipitate and be
removed from the equilibrium. But is it really insoluble?? I am going to be a bit skeptical here.
|
Manganese acetate actually seems to be more soluble than the sulfate! 
Although the data are not exactly at the same temperature:
Manganese acetate: 700g/L at 20c (tetrahydrate)
Manganese sulfate: 700g/L at 70c
So it seems like manganese acetate is a good bit more soluble...
Anyway, even if it were insoluble, would that actually push the equilibrium forward?
If you think about, for instance, magnesium carbonate, it is an insoluble salt of a weak acid, yet its insolubility doesn't prevent it from reacting
with sulfuric acid, the opposite also applies, bubbling CO2 into a solution of magnesium sulfate isn't going to produce a precipitate of magnesium
carbonate...
In this case, the volatile nature of CO2 seems to indicate that possibly the escape of CO2 is what pushes the neutralization reaction forward, but you
could come up with another example where the acid isn't so volatile, such as, for instance:
3MgSO4 (aq) + 2H3PO4 (aq) ----> 3H2SO4 (aq) + Mg3(PO4)2 (s)
I'm pretty sure this wouldn't take place either, because the acid-base equilibrium tends to predominate, and sulfuric acid is a much stronger acid
than phosphoric acid.
If this reaction did take place, it'd be a nice way of making sulfuric acid!
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1693
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
According to this the solubility of the sulfate is a bit weird: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table#M
It doesn't list the acetate however, so no real conclusion.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
|
|
|
Bedlasky
International Hazard
Posts: 1219
Registered: 15-4-2019
Location: Period 5, group 6
Member Is Offline
Mood: Volatile
|
|
Mn(II) acetate is well soluble.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5102
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It might be possible in glacial acetic acid, if the Mn salt isn't soluble in that .
But I would still ppt the hydroxide or carbonate and then dissolve that in acetic acid.
If you really need to remove Na afterwards, you can recrystalise the stuff.
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1693
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
The source specifies 70% or glacial acid, I have a feeling that just might work.
And I have to stress that large precipitation reactions suck the big felota. Any more than a few grams at the time and you're looking at a bucket of
unworkable slugdge. You really need some solubility in order to grow dense particles that can be filtered.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
