Conure
Harmless
Posts: 29
Registered: 6-2-2023
Location: Schweden
Member Is Offline
|
|
Does Mg react with carbonates?
When igniting mixtures of Mg and carbonates, the fire is more intense and colorful than Mg alone. Is this because the mixture is reacting or is it the
carbonate decomposing from the heat of burning Mg? I paricularly like the pink flames from K2CO3. SrCO3 looks nice too.
Edit:
What would be the products of the reaction, say with K2CO3? MgO+K2O+C?
[Edited on 21-3-2023 by Conure]
[Edited on 21-3-2023 by Conure]
Fire is good. Fire is life.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4278
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
Magnesium will continue to burn if you slap it between pieces of dry ice, so I imagine that yes, it would.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
Rainwater
National Hazard
Posts: 800
Registered: 22-12-2021
Member Is Offline
Mood: indisposition to activity
|
|
If you really want to know, you can list all the possible combinations of anion and cations, then ill work the thermodynamics of each reaction to see
which is more likely to form.
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
|
|
|
Morgan
International Hazard
Posts: 1660
Registered: 28-12-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I always liked that Magnesium burns nicely with Magnesium Sulfate too.
|
|
|
Conure
Harmless
Posts: 29
Registered: 6-2-2023
Location: Schweden
Member Is Offline
|
|
Here are some videos if anyone is curious. Notice that the video with Li2CO3 leaves a black pile, could it be carbon?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm7C-o0ovak
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Ebg5xqV9c
Quote: Originally posted by Rainwater  |
If you really want to know, you can list all the possible combinations of anion and cations, then ill work the thermodynamics of each reaction to see
which is more likely to form.
|
You mean like this?
2 Mg + K2CO3 = 2 MgO + C + K2O
3 Mg + K2CO3 = 3 MgO + C + 2 K
2 Mg + K2CO3 = 2 MgO + CO + 2 K
Mg + K2CO3 = MgO + CO2 + 2 K
Mg + K2CO3 = MgO + CO + K2O
[Edited on 30-3-2023 by Conure]
Fire is good. Fire is life.
|
|
|
Admagistr
Hazard to Others
Posts: 350
Registered: 4-11-2021
Location: Central Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: The dreaming alchemist
|
|
@CONURE:
Here are some videos if anyone is curious. Notice that the video with Li2CO3 leaves a black pile, could it be carbon?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm7C-o0ovak
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Ebg5xqV9c
Great YouTube channel! I believe it is carbon,the chemistry of Li and Mg is similar,although they are metals from different groups,there is a diagonal
relationship,a peculiarity of the Periodic law...
[Edited on 30-3-2023 by Admagistr]
|
|
|
Rainwater
National Hazard
Posts: 800
Registered: 22-12-2021
Member Is Offline
Mood: indisposition to activity
|
|
Yep. So at stp get
| Code: |
2 Mg + K2CO3 = 2 MgO + C + K2O| ΔH -408.9442 kJ/mol ΔS -65.2578 J mol/K ΔG -389.4875 kJ/mol
3 Mg + K2CO3 = 3 MgO + C + 2 K| ΔH -643.7500 kJ/mol ΔS -34.8151 J mol/K ΔG -633.3701.kJ/mol
2 Mg + K2CO3 = 2 MgO + CO + 2 K| ΔH -156.3142 kJ/mol ΔS 162.1802 J mol/K ΔG -204.6683 kJ/mol
Mg + K2CO3 = MgO + CO2 + 2 K| ΔH 158.6991 kJ/mol ΔS 150.0466 J mol/K ΔG 113.9627 kJ/mol
Mg + K2CO3 = MgO + CO + K2O| ΔH 78.4918 kJ/mol ΔS 99.0436 J mol/K ΔG 48.9620 kJ/mol
|
Out of those you listed, at stp 3 are thermodynamicly possible, one of which is favorable at stp.
I have not done a thermite reaction in a while, and im all out of potassium. Might give that a go
[Edited on 30-3-2023 by Rainwater]
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
|
|
|
Conure
Harmless
Posts: 29
Registered: 6-2-2023
Location: Schweden
Member Is Offline
|
|
Nice to see that someone appreciates my videos. I'm going to test carbonates with Ca next time. Although I have no more Li2CO3.
| Quote: Originally posted by Rainwater |
Yep. So at stp get
| Code: |
2 Mg + K2CO3 = 2 MgO + C + K2O| ΔH -408.9442 kJ/mol ΔS -65.2578 J mol/K ΔG -389.4875 kJ/mol
3 Mg + K2CO3 = 3 MgO + C + 2 K| ΔH -643.7500 kJ/mol ΔS -34.8151 J mol/K ΔG -633.3701.kJ/mol
2 Mg + K2CO3 = 2 MgO + CO + 2 K| ΔH -156.3142 kJ/mol ΔS 162.1802 J mol/K ΔG -204.6683 kJ/mol
Mg + K2CO3 = MgO + CO2 + 2 K| ΔH 158.6991 kJ/mol ΔS 150.0466 J mol/K ΔG 113.9627 kJ/mol
Mg + K2CO3 = MgO + CO + K2O| ΔH 78.4918 kJ/mol ΔS 99.0436 J mol/K ΔG 48.9620 kJ/mol
|
Out of those you listed, at stp 3 are thermodynamicly possible, one of which is favorable at stp.
I have not done a thermite reaction in a while, and im all out of potassium. Might give that a go
[Edited on 30-3-2023 by Rainwater] |
Enthalpy of formation and such is above my chemistry level.  I guess lowest number
means most likely formula. Do you do the calculations manually or is there some website where you can just paste a chemical formula?
[Edited on 31-3-2023 by Conure]
[Edited on 31-3-2023 by Conure]
[Edited on 31-3-2023 by Conure]
[Edited on 31-3-2023 by Conure]
Fire is good. Fire is life.
|
|
|
Admagistr
Hazard to Others
Posts: 350
Registered: 4-11-2021
Location: Central Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: The dreaming alchemist
|
|
@Conure:Nice to see that someone appreciates my videos. I'm going to test carbonates with Ca next time. Although I have no more
Li2CO3.
I like the fact that your channel is very lively and dynamic, no one who I watches adds 5 videos in one day, that's great!Please show more how the
products of the reactions look like, if they can be used, for example the metals formed by the reaction. If you add a product to the reaction,for
example,when you are doing reacts with aluminium,you add Al2O3,the reaction time is significantly longer,you can observe it better and the products
are more separated when the mixture is hot longer...You can use these exothermic reactions as a heat source to realize endotermic reactions,for
example,I am experimenting with melting a mixture of Al2O3 and Cr2O3 and trying to make rubies in many ways...Greetings to Sweden
Good luck with the next experiments,looking forward to the videos!
[Edited on 31-3-2023 by Admagistr]
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5104
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Have you ruled our carbides etc?
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Conure |
Enthalpy of formation and such is above my chemistry level. I guess lowest number
means most likely formula. Do you do the calculations manually or is there some website where you can just paste a chemical formula?
|
Rainwater loves parading these Standard Enthalpies of Reaction (SER), without seemingly realising how irrelevant they often are.
In chemistry we have a saying: 'thermodynamics does not equate kinetics'.
A simple example shows this. We all know that coal burns fiercely and with much heat (enthalpy) released. But does a lump of coal spontaneously
combust at room temperature, considering its strongly negative SER? Does it f*ck!
We need to light that fire, literally with some heat source like a match, lighter, gas burner or similar.
So it is also with those reactions involving Mg: they need to be lit, Thermite-style, in order to proceed, regardless of their SER.
[Edited on 31-3-2023 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4516
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
And these are indeed thermite-style reactions being discussed, so the SERs are quite relevant in this context even if they aren’t the end-all
be-all.
Once again with the unnecessary aggression from you…
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If any disagreement on what is supposed to be a site ABOUT SCIENCE now counts as 'aggression' then so be it.
|
|
|
Rainwater
National Hazard
Posts: 800
Registered: 22-12-2021
Member Is Offline
Mood: indisposition to activity
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Rainwater loves parading these Standard Enthalpies of Reaction (SER), without seemingly realising how irrelevant they often are.
|
Blogfast is correct in that mixing these 2 reagents together, will not cause this reaction to occure. To elaborate, the reagents need to be mixed very
well and activation energy added into the system. This happens best when 1 or more are in a liquid or gas state.
but that would be better phrased as, rainwater forgot again, to mentioning how thermodynamics is one part of a bigger concept and not a direct answer.
Any unknown reaction can be written down, and calculated to see if it will happen under given conditions. If the delta G is negative, its is possible.
Does not mean it will work, but possible.
If the delta G is positive, not happening
Most books teach the reactivity series, and most of the time that is enough to predict the outcome in aqueous solution, but what do you look for when
their is no aqueous solution?
thermodynamics.
Here is the a excel spread sheet i used
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=15...
If you have questions about it, please use the link above as to keep topics properly sorted
[Edited on 31-3-2023 by Rainwater]
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4516
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
It’s possible to disagree without being rude. It
shouldn’t be that hard.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
There was no rudeness, except in your eyes. It might also be better to allow the subject of perceived rudeness to respond him/herself.
@rainwater: thanks; read and noted.
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6229
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: Unmoved
Member Is Offline
Mood: Organised
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
There was no rudeness, except in your eyes. It might also be better to allow the subject of perceived rudeness to respond him/herself.
@rainwater: thanks; read and noted. |
Well, blogfast, your expertise on these reactions is appreciated but the
swearing was un-needed in this context. i believe that was what Tex was referring to.
|
|
|
arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1761
Registered: 3-2-2014
Location: On a Big Blue Marble hurtling through space
Member Is Offline
Mood: украї́нська
|
|
Everybody,
Let's all take a breath and go our respective corners. Please.
Traffic here has gotten sparse enough without needless incivility.
Thank You.
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2694
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
Rainwater's use of "standard temperature and pressure" to analyze the behavior of a burning mixture is obviously
wrong.
But sometimes reviewing the obvious can be an inspiration to creative thinking. Without glancing at the enthalpies I would have forgotten that it is
favorable for some reason for magnesium to reduce potassium. This would likely explain the colorful behavior noted by OP, since potassium is much more
volatile than Mg and may mix more effectively with air, as well as producing its own flame colors. Potassium flame e.g.:
[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
|
|
|
Conure
Harmless
Posts: 29
Registered: 6-2-2023
Location: Schweden
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Admagistr | @Conure:Nice to see that someone appreciates my videos. I'm going to test carbonates with Ca next time. Although I have no more
Li2CO3.
I like the fact that your channel is very lively and dynamic, no one who I watches adds 5 videos in one day, that's great!Please show more how the
products of the reactions look like, if they can be used, for example the metals formed by the reaction. If you add a product to the reaction,for
example,when you are doing reacts with aluminium,you add Al2O3,the reaction time is significantly longer,you can observe it better and the products
are more separated when the mixture is hot longer...You can use these exothermic reactions as a heat source to realize endotermic reactions,for
example,I am experimenting with melting a mixture of Al2O3 and Cr2O3 and trying to make rubies in many ways...Greetings to Sweden
Good luck with the next experiments,looking forward to the videos!
[Edited on 31-3-2023 by Admagistr] |
I'm too lazy to play around with the products. I did mix some KClO4 with the black and white remains and tried to light it to no avail. I was hoping
the black stuff wluld be graphite and ignite. I might try adding Al2O3 to slow down reactions.
Fire is good. Fire is life.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
