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digitalemu
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Lab rats.
This is a few theoretical questions. I do not actually own any rats, nor do I intend to purchase any live rats for testing, torturing, or killing. I
just think it's cruel.
Where do real labs buy lab rats from?
and
Is buying a lab rat at say Petsmart more or less moral than through a specific lab rat supplier?
So that no one else claims rats have no application in a chemistry lab and does not meet forum requirements, I would like to point out that lab rats
have in the past been kept by chemists to detect poisonous vapor. The idea was that if the rat were to die, something poisonous was in the air and it
was time to escape the lab.
[Edited on 1-6-2011 by digitalemu]
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ScienceSquirrel
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There are specialist places that breed lab rats and sell them to places that need them. Because of animal rights activists and adverse publicity thay
tend to keep out of the public eye as far as possible. As far as I know there is no overalp between breeders of rats for the pet trade and breeders of
lab rats.
Most small mammals for the pet trade are raised on a small scale by amateurs who get them used to human handling etc.
Some places breed their own stock, besides the plain vanilla rat there are specialist strains that exhibit traits that make them useful in particular
research eg the Cohen diabetic rat;
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/50/11/2521.abst...
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mr.crow
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Poor little lab rats, they are so prone to disease and cancer. If something is going to kill you slowly its going to show up right away in a rat.
You can get normal albino rats suitable for pets. There are probably rat fanciers who sell them.
As for petsmart, it doesn't matter that much for rodents. If they one you want go for it. Don't get a dog or cat from a store though. You can easily
get a cat for free and a dog from a breeder who treats them well or from a shelter.
Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble
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The WiZard is In
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Quote: Originally posted by digitalemu  | This is a few
theoretical questions. I do not actually own any rats, nor do I intend to purchase any live rats for testing, torturing, or killing. I just think
it's cruel.
Where do real labs buy lab rats from?
and
Is buying a lab rat at say Petsmart more or less moral than
through a specific lab rat supplier?
|
You have just the right person here for you fruitloopery. I sell
my children for medical experiments.
Rememberer I being in a local pet store - side by side were two
small fish tanks. One sez. White mice for pets other
White mice for food. Obviously they were the same mice
just different tanks. Problable for people who don't have their
pets killed they have them Put down.
Until a few years back the ASPCA in NY City was required to
trurn over unclaimed dogs for use in medical experiments.
The the Carolina Biological Supply Company (they sell mostly
to schools.) had a picture of their catalogue of their
Cat room — row upon row of legs up in the air dead cats.
----
Try these on for size.
Extracted from :—
CV Legros
Translated by Bernard Miall
Fabre Poet of Science : The classic biography of one of the
greatest naturalists of the world.
Horizon Press New York 1971
I make a Tarantula** bite the leg of a young, well-fledged Sparrow,
ready to leave the nest. A drop of blood flows; the wounded spot
is surrounded by a reddish circle, changing to purple. The bird
almost immediately loses the use of its leg, which drags, with the toes doubled in;
it hops upon the other. Apart from this, the
patient does not seem to trouble much about his hurt; his
appetite is good. My daughters feed him on Flies, bread-crumb,
apricot-pulp. He is sure to get well, he will recover his strength; the
poor victim of the curiosity of science will be restored to liberty.
This is the wish, the intention of us all. Twelve hours later, the
hope of a cure increases; the invalid takes nourishment readily; he
clamours for it, if we keep him waiting. But the leg still drags. I set
this down to a temporary paralysis which will soon disappear. Two
days after, he refuses his food. Wrapping himself in his stoicism
and his rumpled feathers, the Sparrow hunches into a ball, now
motionless, now twitching. My girls take him in the hollow of their
hands and warm him with their breath. The spasms become more
frequent. A gasp proclaims that all is over. The bird is dead.
There was a certain coolness among us at the evening-meal. I
read mute reproaches, because of my experiment, in the eyes of
my home-circle; I read an unspoken accusation of cruelty all
around me. The death of the unfortunate Sparrow had saddened
the whole family. I myself was not without some remorse of
conscience: the poor result achieved seemed to me too dearly
bought. I am not made of the stuff of those who, without turning a
hair, rip up Live dogs to find out nothing in particular.
Neverthelss, I had the courage to start afresh, this time on a
Mole caught ravaging a bed of lettuces.
** The Tarantula is a Lycosa, or Wolf-spider Fabre's Tarantula, the
Black-bellied Tarantula, is identical with the Narbonne Lycosa,
under which name the description is continued in Chapters i?i. to
vi., all of which were written at a considerably later date than the
present chapter.- Translators Note.
----
Dead. Needlessly,
John M Allen
NY Times, 9x76.
Pawling, N.Y.—I killed your cat early this morning, You know, the
small black-and-white one, sleek-furred and friendly—about three months
old, I'd say. I laid it down on the front section of yesterday, newspaper and
folded a part of the paper over its head—the white side up—and then I
took an old walking stick and I bashed the paper over the head as hard as
I could. Four times, just to make sure. It broke the old walking stick.
I though you’d want to know, because it was your cat, and you must
have loved it very much, for it always walked right in front, crisscrossing—
in a trusting, brushing sort of way, trying to get picked up and petted.
At least I thought you ought to know how it died. How two dogs in the
neighborhood, one a golden retriever, the other a red setter, had cornered
the cat by our front door, fought with it, and finally chewed through its
backbone.
Oh, it fought hard and the cat-shrieks of terror woke me up. But the
dogs were too big, your cat too small, too young. So I did all I could think
of to put it out of its misery, as it lay there on the grass, wet, bleeding,
feces protruding, from fear or bite pressure or both, its eyes open, whining
gently. I had no choice.
But you did. Every year, literally scores of summer people leave their
cats by our house—hoping, I'm sure that they'll find a way, And most of
them do, for a while. I've seen as many as 30 cats over there, left off by
their loving owners who felt, I'm sure, that a dairy farm in the foothills of
the Berkshires was a perfect spot for a cat. In a way it is. For a while. But
cats procreate, and soon there are too many. And then one day there are
none, and I've never asked the farmer what happens to them. I care, but I
don't want to know.
And maybe you didn't want to know that I bludgeoned your kitten. All
you wanted to remember was the delight your children had with it, all
summer long, as it grew from an eyes-closed fluff to hesitant staggered to
pretended hunter. I'm sure you wanted to remember it curled up on the
end of a bed, with the shaft of sunlight warming its sweet-smelling fur.
But you can't remember only that, you know. Because life is a
continuum, and we can't escape the responsibility of our acts. You
enjoyed your cat, and your kids enjoyed your cat. And somehow you were
able to divorce the enjoyment from your responsibility. You may have
taught your children love and playfulness and the wonder of nature. But
you also taught them to throw away something that wasn't convenient,
that didn't fit in with your plans, or your landlord's plans.
You taught them to pass a responsibility on to others—who were
unknowing and unwilling. You convinced yourself—because you wanted
to—that your kitten would be happy and well feed on fresh cow's milk. I'm
sure you even rationalized yourself into believing that it would be better
off, really, with all those other cats.
No, I', not talking about one cat, your cat, which must have been loved
because it didn't do to the barn but across the road to our home to play
with our children (and our three cats). And that's where the dogs bit
though its spinal column.** An where I had to bash its head in to relieve its
agony. Because you really didn't care enough. Or you wouldn't have done
it.
You wouldn't even have accepted the responsibility in the first
place. If you really had cared.
------------
** I remember years ago sitting on my stoop with a stray kitten,
two kids I had never seen before came down the block with a
large dog I had never seen before. The dog saw a cat it had
never seen before .... that quick it grabbed it and threw it up in
the air. The kids and dog ran off. Must have bitten through the
cats spine as it couldn't move its back legs. After a few minutes
of thing of a humane way to end its misery... it breathed its last
and died in my hands. The dog had a really bad case of dog-y-ie
breath. When!
Some years latter walking with my snowshoes I happen upon
two (someone's pet) dogs trying to eat a deer
alive.They ran off - and I set off for the Park Headquarters.
Shuffled back. Shortly one of the park police showed up with a .22.
The deer had breathed its last before he got there.
To quote the poet Nature red in tooth and claw.
djh
----
[The] growing good of the world is partly dependent on
unhistoric acts; and that things are not so ill with you and
me as they might be is half owing to the number who
lived faithfully a hidden life, and rest in unvisited graves.
"George Elliot" Middlemarch
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hissingnoise
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Cruelty to animals (are we not animals?) is cruelty, period . . . and beyond justification, regardless of 'purpose'!!!
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The WiZard is In
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crazyboy
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So where do you draw the line? Would you allow yourself to be bitten by mosquito to avoid killing them? Would you save a few hundred or a few thousand
rats and let tens of thousands or millions of people die of smallpox, influenza and polio?
I'm not advocating cruelty without purpose but killing animals is not inherently wrong. Unless you're a vegan you probably agree.
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digitalemu
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| Quote: Originally posted by crazyboy |
So where do you draw the line? Would you allow yourself to be bitten by mosquito to avoid killing them? Would you save a few hundred or a few thousand
rats and let tens of thousands or millions of people die of smallpox, influenza and polio?
I'm not advocating cruelty without purpose but killing animals is not inherently wrong. Unless you're a vegan you probably agree.
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Myself, I do not think killing animals is inherently wrong as I definitely cannot go a summer without those BBQ hot dogs, burgers, and ribs.
Speaking or rats...... Wonder what hot dogs are made of? It may not only be cow and hog parts 
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smuv
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It is important to consider that rodents used for animal testing are different beasts than those you buy from a pet store. Namely, most rodents used
for test purposes are MEAN! According to friends who routinely do animal testing, 'Sacrificing' rats is pretty easy when day in and day out they try
to scratch and bite you.
"Titanium tetrachloride…You sly temptress." --Walter Bishop
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hissingnoise
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Well, unnecessary cruelty, then . . .
I'm a meateater but I'd like to think the animals are killed humanely!
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Neil
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Rats and mice for many pet stores come from the same places that breed rats and mice for laboratories.
As far as I know almost all rats and mice for laboratory use as well as the pet trade come from Malaysia, unless there is some special local rat
breeder.
The only difference between a "feeder rat" and a pet rat is about three dollars .
There are some rats which are not "feeder rats" under normal consideration; they try to avoid feeding reptiles soft furred rats for the same reason
they try to avoid feeding reptiles ice burg lettuce.
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ScienceSquirrel
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There are fancy rats which have special colours and markings and normally come from specialist breeders.
http://www.nfrs.org/varietiesshaded.html
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LanthanumK
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I searched on Google Products and couldn't find any lab rats for sale.
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cyanureeves
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i thought munchausen was the name of disease that the tarantula experimenter suffered from but munchausen is like a hypochondriac. isnt there a
medical name for people who cause pain just so they can play nurse? sort of like volunteer firemen starting fires and then heroically putting them
out. james caan plays a victim of a sick lady suffering from that disease i'm talking about.i've been mistakenly calling it munchausen.
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Neil
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You mean masochism? Or maybe a Somatoform disorder?
Munchhausen does seem to fit your current understanding.
As for ordering lab rats, get in touch with local snake breeders or pet stores.
At any point now someone is going to point out this is a chemistry forum and not a biology forum. In the old days Vulture would swoop in with
vengeance, and Oh how ironic that would be...
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digitalemu
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Couldn't find any on eBay or Amazon either.
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digitalemu
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| Quote: Originally posted by Neil | You mean masochism? Or maybe a Somatoform disorder?
Munchhausen does seem to fit your current understanding.
As for ordering lab rats, get in touch with local snake breeders or pet stores.
At any point now someone is going to point out this is a chemistry forum and not a biology forum. In the old days Vulture would swoop in with
vengeance, and Oh how ironic that would be... |
It is a chemistry forum however I must point out that lab rats have in the past been kept by chemists to detect poisonous vapor. The idea was that if
the rat were to die, something poisonous was in the air and it was time to escape the lab. So, while lab rats are mainly used in biological
applications, the lab rat still could be considered a chemistry "apparatus" so to speak thus meeting the criteria to be included in the "Reagents and
Apparatus Acquisition" forum.
[Edited on 1-6-2011 by digitalemu]
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by Neil | Rats and mice for many pet stores come from the same places that breed rats and mice for laboratories.
As far as I know almost all rats and mice for laboratory use as well as the pet trade come from Malaysia, unless there is some special local rat
breeder.
The only difference between a "feeder rat" and a pet rat is about three dollars.
There are some rats which are not "feeder rats" under normal consideration; they try to avoid feeding reptiles soft furred rats for the same reason
they try to avoid feeding reptiles ice burg lettuce. |
You can buy frozen mice and rats for snake food. Frozen ones
are preferred as they cannot injure the snake, assuming you remember to defrost them.
Byda baby mice "pinkies" are used as frog food among
other animals.
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Neil
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@digitalemu: Sorry mate, I guess your google is broken. It must be suffering from excessive hypotheticalism http://www.rodentpro.com/
And no offense but wtf?
| Quote: |
It is a chemistry forum however I must point out that lab rats have in the past been kept by chemists to detect poisonous vapor. The idea was that if
the rat were to die, something poisonous was in the air and it was time to escape the lab. So, while lab rats are mainly used in biological
applications, the lab rat still could be considered a chemistry "apparatus" so to speak thus meeting the criteria to be included in the "Reagents and
Apparatus Acquisition" forum. |
| Quote: |
This is a few theoretical questions. I do not actually own any rats, nor do I intend to purchase any live rats for testing, torturing, or killing. I
just think it's cruel.Where do real labs buy lab rats from?andIs buying a lab rat at say Petsmart more or less moral than through a specific lab rat
supplier?So that no one else claims rats have no application in a chemistry lab and does not meet forum requirements, I would like to point out that
lab rats have in the past been kept by chemists to detect poisonous vapor. The idea was that if the rat were to die, something poisonous was in the
air and it was time to escape the lab. |
If you have no intention to use rats in a lab then no, no they are not apparatus. If you do have an intention to use them then still no. They are not
an "apparatus".
Whatever the case, have fun under your bridge.
@Wizard; Some snakes refuse to take frozen food only taking freshly killed.
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digitalemu
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RodentPro only sells frozen rats, no live rats. And no my "google" is not broken. Though Google does have a lot of information, it does not hold all
the answers in the universe.
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Wizzard
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Google does hold all the universe's answers, somewhere- The problem is knowing how to ask for them 
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peach
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That'd be Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome.
| Quote: | | Children who are subject to MBPS are typically preschool age, although there have been reported cases in kids up to 16 years old, and there are equal
numbers of boys and girls. About 98% of the perpetrators are female. |
[Edited on 1-6-2011 by peach]
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Panache
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| Quote: Originally posted by Neil |
If you have no intention to use rats in a lab then no, no they are not apparatus. If you do have an intention to use them then still no. They are not
an "apparatus".
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Omg pwnt! (as an aside god i love that expression, i cannot think of another from 'normal english' that conveys the sentiment as effectively.
An elegant two sentences mr neil.
However i detect a small fissure in your argument, as the subject of the forum is 'reagents and apparatus aquisition', if perchance your reference
read something.....
Eye of newt, wing of bat, one entire rat.....?.
So all it requires for rebuff is the purchase of a pointy hat, a broom stick and a huge asymmetric mole on the end of your nose.
Back on topic, hmmmm, well sort of, anyway, reading this thread has lead me to the imagining of an excellent joke something like...
When God gets its right, the match made in heaven!
Little Lolita was always sick, and her poor loving parents despaired, however the rot had begun in her brain and the hypochondria would not release
its tenacles from her, by age eight barely a day was spent out of bed.
However a miracle prevailed!
A new nurse, employed by her parents came repleat with undiagnosed Munchausen by Proxy syndrome. She gave the little child what she always wanted and
was loved to death.
The miracle you ask, what was the miracle?
Why the miracle was that anyone believed in god in the first place.
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Panache
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As for the spectrum of cruelty from swatting a mosquito, to eating meat to punching your eight month old doberman unconscious because you're
impressing your mates (news item a couple of years back here, one of the mates gf's reported him, eight month suspended sentence, first offence, only
twenty two, apparently impressionable young man, dog was found a new home, difficult feelings it still gives me), being honest withoneself is rarely
easy. We ae sentient, we are a plague by any definition, we are self serving unlike any other species, we are seven billion, we believe that each
human life is utmostly important.
I cannot balance how i feel about what i and we humans do, with the fact that i and we humans do it.I can only shrug my shoulders and admit to
hypocrisy, abject hypocrisy. I can in no way feel anything but shit about it.
Rationalising however, no sweat, i can justify all my personal actions, but life is not played out entirely in the brain space of rationalising.
So i just shake my head and try not to think a out how much i truly love cows, their huge noses, their curiosity, their cud chewing, whilst truly
loving the crispy sweet soft medium rare rib eye on my plate.
I want to clarify there is no intended mirth within this post.
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fledarmus
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This is another social issue with a very wide field of beliefs and a constantly changing view of what is considered ethical or acceptable. The beliefs
are as diverse as "animals are people too", in which case it is perfectle acceptable to injure or even kill people to prevent injury to animals, to
"all things were put on the earth for our benefit, but we must care for it" under which philosophy eating meat and testing drugs on animals are
perfectly acceptable as long as we try to be humane about the ways we treat them, to "nothing is more important than a human life" which justifies any
testing that might potentially be useful, to "it's my livelihood", which justifies wholesale slaughter of predator species and pests, to "what the
heck, it's only an animal" which justifies... well, almost anything. At one time, any predator capable of taking down even a relatively young or ill
person was hunted to extinction anywhere that humans lived, and that was acceptable behavior. Now, large sections of desirable real estate with
harvestable resources are declared off limits for development due to the presence of a small population of relatively obscure animals.
The question "why would we get so upset about ____ when we still ____" applied to anything in this discussion is a completely useless discussion. The
groups of similar minded people on any particular topic are so diverse that even the concept of "we" isn't particularly helpful.
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