ZHANGNIUBI
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Some tips about 5-ATZ nitrate
Hey, my friends, I found http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8144 in the forum. It is wonderful and amazing!
but no one seems to pay more attention to 5-ATZ nitrate.
here, I want to show some explosion experiments my friends did in China and correct something incorrect in that article..
my friends in China found that 5-ATZ+NO3-is really a powerful explosive, which may be better than RDX.we detonated some 5-ATZNO3.
the first picture is about HMTD vs 5-ATNO3.
we detonated equal mass HMTD and 5-ATNO3 on the glasses. the left side is HMTD and the right side is 5-ATNO3.we can easily find that 5-ATNO3 is much
more powerful than HMTD.
the second picture is about 9gram 5-ATNO3. My friend detonated tha explosive on marble. The detonator destoried it...
with a VoD of 8900m/s, and density of 1.847g/cm^3(I believe 5-ATNO3 has a better performance than RDX), more insensitive than TNT.We should pay more
attention on 5-atno3.
the other thing is about the structure of 5-ATNO3, now, from the paper I collected, we found the correct sturcture is as the third document shows.
the structure of 5-ATNO3 --[CN4H-NH3]+[NO3]-is not exactly right. the correct one should be [CN4H2-NH2]+[NO3]-
thanks!!
Attachment: 5-ATZ nitrate (193kB)
This file has been downloaded 1138 times
[Edited on 27-6-2011 by ZHANGNIUBI]
[Edited on 27-6-2011 by ZHANGNIUBI]
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ZHANGNIUBI
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explosion experiments.
here is the pictures
I am sorry for only one picture.
this is about HMTD(left)vs5-ATNO3(right)
5-ATNO3 is much more powerful than HMTD
[Edited on 27-6-2011 by ZHANGNIUBI]
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AndersHoveland
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Yes, 5-amino-tetrazole nitrate is very powerful, and less sensitive than many other typical explosives of comparable power. This demonstates that
aromatic heterocyclic nitrogen-containing compounds show excellent potential for power and stability. Despite smaller molecular sizes, such compounds
have higher densities because of intermolecular hydrogen bonding (this also contributes to lower sensitivities). The NH groups in the ring also
stabilize the molecule by serving as electron-donors. Unlike most nitramines (such as RDX) have symmetry, tetrazoles are much more polar molecules,
leading to closer molecular packing, and thus density.
My personal opinion is that triazoles (and triazolo-derivitives) hold more promise than tetrazoles, as there is room for an additional side groups,
but unfortunately triazoles are much more complex to prepare.
An actual structure of CN4H2=NH2[+] NO3[-] is not at all surprising, as many other tetrazole compounds are known to have this structure.
I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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ZHANGNIUBI
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I think people can use 5-ATZNO3 to replace PETN,ETN and some sensitive explosive to have fun safely.
5-ATis not that hard to synthsize and in China we can buy 5-AT online.(with a price of appox.45dollars/500g)
hence, the work is much easier.
I am not sure if it is possible(to make 5-ATZNO3 a common homemade explosive). But I really look forward to it.
and I still have some pictures about explosion experiment. may be I ll publish them later. if i get how to do that..
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Rosco Bodine
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Has anyone tested 5-ATZClO4 to see if the perchlorate salt is not hygroscopic
and to see if it is more easily initiated than the nitrate salt 5-ATZNO3 ?
The perchlorate may also be more powerful than the nitrate.
US3663553 Di-Silver Aminotetrazole Perchlorate would be a possible initiator for 5-ATZClO4 which would have perfect chemical compatibility.
Of course more mundane guanidine perchlorate or methylamine perchlorate, would be better economy for use as a secondary explosive or base charge while
the 5-ATZ
would be better economy being utilized to make an initiator.
Attachment: US3663553 Di-Silver Aminotetrazole Perchlorate.pdf (101kB)
This file has been downloaded 643 times
[Edited on 29-6-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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ZHANGNIUBI
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Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  | Has anyone tested 5-ATZClO4 to see if the perchlorate salt is not hygroscopic
and to see if it is more easily initiated than the nitrate salt 5-ATZNO3 ?
The perchlorate may also be more powerful than the nitrate.
US3663553 Di-Silver Aminotetrazole Perchlorate would be a possible initiator for 5-ATZClO4 which would have perfect chemical compatibility.
Of course more mundane guanidine perchlorate or methylamine perchlorate, would be better economy for use as a secondary explosive or base charge while
the 5-ATZ
would be better economy being utilized to make an initiator.
[Edited on 29-6-2011 by Rosco Bodine] |
Actually, we tried what you say, we synthsized the 5-ATCLO4,and finally found it possible to dissovle in cold water.I guess 5-ATCLO4 is hygroscopic..
and we also tested if 5-ATCLO4 is suitable to be a primary explosive(as the paper said), we failed to detonate it by fire(and , you know, it can be a
insensitive primary explosive as the paper said,so it may be much easier to be initiated than 5-ATNO3).
also, I tried the primary explosive you said, it could easily detonated when heating or on fire..but the paper I got said it is a weak primary. I
synthsized approx.5gram in China, I didn;t have time to test it...and now I am here...
well, I still think , 5-atNO3 is powerful than 5-ATCLO4, just like guanidine perchlorate , which has a VoD of less than 8000, is not as powerful as
guanidine nitrate, which has a vod of 8300+.and at the same time much more insensitive...
[Edited on 29-6-2011 by ZHANGNIUBI]
[Edited on 29-6-2011 by ZHANGNIUBI]
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Rosco Bodine
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There was nothing I found in the paper about 5-ATZClO4
The perchlorates should be more powerful salts than the nitrates
and more easily initiated. Your information about guanidine nitrate
and guanidine perchlorate is not correct. The perchlorates are more
powerful for guanidine and for methylamine and for other amines.
The only real concern there is unknown sensitivity to moisture.
For some things the nitrate may be non-hygroscopic but the
perchlorate may be hygroscopic .....or it may be just the opposite.
Or both perchlorate and nitrate may be non-hygroscopic or
both may be hygroscopic. There seems to be no prediction possible.
Also solubility has nothing to do with whether or not a compound
is hygroscopic. There are many highly soluble compounds which
are even so not at all hygroscopic ....in spite of being highly soluble.
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ZHANGNIUBI
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine | There was nothing I found in the paper about 5-ATZClO4
The perchlorates should be more powerful salts than the nitrates
and more easily initiated. Your information about guanidine nitrate
and guanidine perchlorate is not correct. The perchlorates are more
powerful for guanidine and for methylamine and for other amines.
The only real concern there is unknown sensitivity to moisture.
For some things the nitrate may be non-hygroscopic but the
perchlorate may be hygroscopic .....or it may be just the opposite.
Or both perchlorate and nitrate may be non-hygroscopic or
both may be hygroscopic. There seems to be no prediction possible.
Also solubility has nothing to do with whether or not a compound
is hygroscopic. There are many highly soluble compounds which
are even so not at all hygroscopic ....in spite of being highly soluble. |
Well, you are right ,thank you for sharing your knowledge.
but I wanna point out that mostly perchlorate salt is more sensitive than its nirtrate salt.
and I will tell my Chinese friends to test if 5-ATCLO4 is hygroscopic or not..and tell you the result later
I look forward to it too, 5-ATCLO4 is a safe and powerful primary explosive(also second explosive). I have a paper which mentioned it, but it is a
Chinese paper...
[Edited on 29-6-2011 by ZHANGNIUBI]
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AndersHoveland
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Amine perchlorates are typically less soluble and less hygroscopic than amine nitrates. But simply because it is not hygroscopic does not mean it will
not form a hydrate, where the water is bound in solid form.
[Edited on 30-6-2011 by AndersHoveland]
I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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detonator
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5-ATNO3 explosion pressure 35.7GPa,it is also better than RDX(p=34.7GPa)[This data comes from the Chinese literature.]
I calculated the 5-ATNO3 explosion heat,Q=4417kJ/kg,The results unsatisfactory ,the explosion heat than I thought it 5000kJ/kg.
[Edited on 3-7-2011 by detonator]
[Edited on 3-7-2011 by detonator]
[Edited on 3-7-2011 by detonator]
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dangerous amateur
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Is 5-AT NO3 fuse sensitive?
Where did you get that information?
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ZHANGNIUBI
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the data is from the paper I gave(calculated).
I don't about the first question...but 5-ATCLO4, a primary explosive, may be fuse sensitive. we didnt test that ever.
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UICalculus
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There is something wrong with the data of 5-ATN.
The debate on aminotetrazolium nitrate (ATNO3) has been going on for many years. One side is based on the theoretical calculations in the literature.
It is believed that the ATNO3 detonation rate can reach 8900m/s [1], and the detonation performance should exceed the traditional high such as RDX and
PETN. Performance explosives; one party based on their own test results, that ATNO3 is far less than RDX, PETN, only with PA. The two sides have been
slobbering for many years and even occasionally become personal attacks against individuals.
I am limited to the test conditions, mostly partial theory. But I think that theory should be based on reality. When theory and practice conflict, we
must pay attention to theoretical defects and then propose new theories. This is the step in scientific research.
Both the Kamlet-Jabos empirical formula and the BKW and BKWN equations of state follow the following principle in calculating the detonation
parameters of energetic materials: the oxygen in the energetic material reacts with hydrogen to form water, then excess oxygen and carbon. Carbon
monoxide is generated and excess oxygen is generated to generate carbon dioxide. According to this principle, the decomposition equation of ATNO3 can
be listed:
CH4O3N6→2H2O+CO+3N2
After knowing the density and generating enthalpy, the five detonation parameters of detonation speed, explosion pressure, explosion heat, explosion
capacity and explosion temperature can be easily calculated. Among them, the density measured by X-ray diffraction method was 1.847 g/cm3, and the
formation of ruthenium was larger in each literature. The calculated value given by Denffer [1] is +87 kJ/mol, and the combustion heat is calculated
to be -6002 ± 200 J/g according to the oxygen bomb calorimetry method, and the conversion enthalpy is -74 kJ/mol. The combustion heat given by Du
Zhiming [2] is -812.19 kJ/mol, which is converted to 153 kJ/mol. Although the measured enthalpy of the two measurements is 79 kJ/mol, the accuracy is
better than the calculated value.
Substituting the above data into the Kamlet-Jabos empirical formula.
Table 1 Detonation parameter values of ATNO3 when different enthalpy is generated
273509
Using the measured data to calculate, in the ideal state, the performance of ATNO3 can not exceed the traditional explosives such as RDX, PETN. But it
is stronger than PA, but the explosion decomposition method of ATNO3 does not follow the principle described above [2], but is decomposed into N2, CO,
CH4, CO2. These products will change the explosion capacity and the explosion heat, thus affecting Detonation speed and explosion pressure. The
following formula is analyzed to illustrate the effect of product changes on detonation performance.
CH4O3N6→CO2+CO+N2+CH4
The CH4 formation enthalpy is -74.8 kJ/mol, containing 5 atoms, and 10 g of CH4 per kg of ATNO3 loses 530 kJ/kg of explosive heat, and the loss of 14
L/kg is lost. The production of 10 g of CO2 per kg of ATNO3 can provide an explosion of 282.5 kJ/kg, with only a loss of 2.5 L/kg. Explosion reaction
is a very complicated process. In fact, the calculation of CH4 and CO2 can only indicate an influence trend, that is, the production of CH4 will
weaken the detonation performance of explosives, while CO2 will enhance the detonation performance of explosives and affect the simulation results.
The accuracy.
The detailed content of the decomposition products is not given in the literature, but it is estimated that the components have certain reference
significance according to the conservation of mass.
The literature gives the following conditions available:
1. The sample weighs 1 g.
2. The volumes of N2, CO, CH4 and CO2 were 65.085%, 13.716%, 2.214% and 5.559%, respectively.
The number of C atoms is fixed and used for data analysis.
The amount of C atoms in the sample: 1/148/12 = 0.00676 mol
The amount of H atoms in the sample: 0.00676*4 = 0.02702 mol
The amount of O atoms in the sample: 0.00676*3 = 0.02027 mol
The amount of N atoms in the sample: 0.00676*6 =0.04054 mol
Assuming that C in the sample is completely converted to CO, CH4, CO2:
The amount of CO: 0.00676*13.716/(13.716+2.214+5.559)=0.00431 mol
The amount of CH4: 0.00676*2.214/(13.716+2.214+5.559)=0.00070 mol
Amount of CO2: 0.00676*5.559/(13.716+2.214+5.559)=0.00175 mol
That is, the product contains H: 0.00070*4=0.00280 mol
Contains O: 0.00431+2*0.00175=0.00781 mol
Suppose redundant H generates H2O
The product contains H2O: (0.02702-0.00280)/2=0.01211 mol
O in the product: 0.00781 + 0.01211 = 0.01992 mol
This is almost identical to the 0.02027 mol O in the sample, verifying that the two hypotheses are true.
The above results can be obtained by the decomposition equation of ATNO3:
CH4O3N6→0.259CO2+0.638CO+3N2+0.103CH4+1.794H2O
The data of Table 2 was calculated by selecting the generation 焓-74 kJ/mol into the Kamlet-Jabos empirical formula.
Table 2 Corrected ATNO3 detonation parameter values
Compared with before the correction, there was a slight decrease in the detonation speed, explosion pressure and explosion capacity, and the explosion
heat increased. However, too low an explosion affects the detonation of the ATNO3, making it difficult to achieve an ideal detonation or hydrodynamic
detonation. Similar to the crystal density of ammonium nitrate, the detonation velocity of 6485 m/s can be calculated, even at 1 g/cm3, it can still
reach 4600 m/s. The detonation of ATNO3 may follow a mixed reaction mechanism in which the detonation reaction zone is thicker. When the shock wave is
introduced into the column, the high temperature gas formed by the reaction at the hot spot first diffuses to other parts, causing a subsequent
reaction. The compression of the small-diameter ATNO3 to a higher density may result in a detonation rate drop or even a detonation phenomenon,
because the excessive density hinders the diffusion of the decomposition products, the reaction rate is lowered, the reaction zone is further
thickened, and the detonation velocity is correspondingly reduced. This is consistent with actual observations.
//from https://www.kechuang.org/t/81344 , translated by Google.
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Microtek
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When you say that your hypothesis is consistent with actual observations, does this mean that you have experimental results? If that is the case, it
would be very interesting to see how you have set up the experiments, and how you measure the detonation parameters (I would suppose that you do it
indirectly by measuring plate dent or sand crushing ability, although some people here have used an oscilloscope to measure detonation velocity
directly). I would also be very interested in what those observations actually are.
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UICalculus
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It is proved by experiment.
Details:https://www.kechuang.org/t/81344
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Microtek
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Unfortunately, I cannot access that page.
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wessonsmith
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You have to register and give a phone number, no thanks.
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UICalculus
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You may need to pass its 'B' exam to have the access. This forum has a lot of precious resorces.
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