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Phthalic Acid
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Sulphuric Acid in Australia
Hi everyone, thought I better introduce myself since this is my first post (I've been lurking for a while though). I'm 19 years old and work at a
sheet metal workshop (stanless steel, aluminium and whatever else). Chemistry was the only subject at school I was actually passionate about, and
funnily enough the only one whose marks reflected that. I took a chem paper at uni as an elective (I was actually doing Management Studies) but
decided uni wasn't for me. I just moved over to Australia from NZ and decided I'd like to do a bit of home chemistry as a hobby =) This brings me to
the reason for this post...
I just went on a two hour mission to look for a few things I need to complete my lab. For the life of me I couldn't find anything at Bunnings
(Australia's Home Depot I guess) that even had a small amount of H2SO4! Not only that but the only DCM and Toluene I could find was 60% max and with
who knows what added to it... So I decided to cut my losses and buy some battery acid and boil it down (which I was hoping to avoid.) The guy at
SuperCheap Auto kindly informed me that H2SO4 is illegal to sell to individuals in Australia unless they buy a battery with it (and even then it's
only a 1L bottle!)
So finally getting to the point of this post, how do you other Aussies get your H2SO4 and what other chemicals are banned/restricted/illegal or
otherwise hard to source? It seems like things are pretty strict over here...
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | The guy at SuperCheap Auto kindly informed me that H2SO4 is illegal to sell to individuals in Australia unless they buy a battery with it (and even
then it's only a 1L bottle!). |
Tell them you're into wind-generation using a stack of lead-acid batteries for storage after familiarising yourself with some technical terms of the
process . . .
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Phthalic Acid
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I'd still have to buy the batteries though haha so it wouldn't be very efficient! Unless I register as a business I can't buy it without buying
batteries too, no matter what story I come up with...
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Synthettek
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Quote: Originally posted by Phthalic Acid  | | I'd still have to buy the batteries though haha so it wouldn't be very efficient! Unless I register as a business I can't buy it without buying
batteries too, no matter what story I come up with... |
So then I guess you already know the solution. You need to buy some batteries.
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hissingnoise
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Yes, telling lies convincingly is a 'learned' art . . .
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hissingnoise
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But seriously, I can buy cheap, clear drain-cleaner @ 85% - the dark stuff is 93% but the contaminants put me off!
Boiling off 12% water is easy . . .
Isn't it available in Oz?
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Phthalic Acid
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| Quote: Originally posted by Synthettek | | Quote: Originally posted by Phthalic Acid | | I'd still have to buy the batteries though haha so it wouldn't be very efficient! Unless I register as a business I can't buy it without buying
batteries too, no matter what story I come up with... |
So then I guess you already know the solution. You need to buy some batteries. |
I'm not willing to buy several car batteries for a few liters of 30% H2SO4... Come on now if you aren't going to give me anything constructive then
don't post at all.
Anyway, no hissingnoise it isn't available here. At all. I guess I'll have to make it then... I think I'll try my hand at the electrolysis of Copper
Sulphate. I am not very experienced with electrochem (apart from a few experiments at high school) but I understand the theory quite well. Can anyone
point me in the direction of any material regarding current/voltage required for this process? I imagine the voltage needed would have to be equal to
or greater than the difference between the redox potentials of: 2H2O -> 4H+ + O2 (anode) and Cu2+ -> Cu (cathode) which is -0.89v. So putting in
a voltage above 0.89v should do the trick right? Is there any advantage to putting more voltage in? Does the current just affect the rate of
reduction/oxidation?
If anyone can shed some light on this it would be greatly appreciated!
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plante1999
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Use 2-4 carbon rod from lantern battery satured sol. of CuSO4 4 Volt Dc 2amp.
Two patern for the electrode is usefull , first ( the less efficient patern) 1 anode at 1 inch from 1 cathode , the more efficient principle is 3
anode in a equidistan triangle shape and in the center , a cathode.
Current also affect the corosion rate of the anode.
Personaly when I start making chemistry , my first source of HSO4- was sodium bisulfate for pool ph down and after 2-3 week or so i make it from NaNO3
+ S , search for ''lead chamber process''.
hope it will help you.
[Edited on 11-8-2011 by plante1999]
I never asked for this.
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bquirky
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I wouldn't take legal advice from 'the guy' at supercheap auto.
you can buy it in 2l flasks from sigma chemicals they have a outlet in balcatta wa that ive purchaced over the counter from
but there a national company
just walk in and say 'hi id like some h2s04' it cost me about $30 last time i picked some up.
if your not comfortable not having a 'proper' reason tell them that you recondition batterys and want the concentrate so you can 'fine tune' the
concentration of the cells
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Phthalic Acid
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Thanks for the info plante1999! You seem to have a lot of experience with H2SO4, which method did you find was the highest yielding/easiest/cheapest?
The lead chamber process is really interesting, I'm reading over the "H2SO4 by the Lead Chamber Process - success" thread right now. Just for the
experience I might try both =)
bquirky, that's a good point. Do you think the laws may be different between states (I'm in QLD btw) or is chemical control a federal thing? Thanks
for the advice on the cover story haha but I've never had a problem with things like that =) Is there anything else you can think of that I should
know about over here regarding chemicals etc.?
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plante1999
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Do you have charcoal and a place to make 1.5 feet pile of it , or you have only a 50 ml beaker for making it?
Wath I want to said is there is many way for H2SO4 but some need extreme temp , apparatus.... If you can specify your requirement to me it will be
more simple expl: cheap.
Substitute to H2SO4
NaHSO4 , Sodium hydrogen sulfate , Pool Ph down
Process to make H2SO4:
heat to 700 degree C NaHSO4 and spray water vappor in the gas that will form , H2SO4 will condance note , it will heat strongly.
electrolisis of CuSO4
Burning sulfur and passing the gas in 3% H2O2
burning sulfur With NaNO3
Metabisulfate + bisulfate and the SO2 produce pass in H2O2
dry distill FeSO4
Persulfate hydrolisis and passing SO2 in the sol of hydrolised Persulfate.
And manny other process that I have tested but my two favorite are
NaHSO4 as an substitute and NaNO3 + S
[Edited on 11-8-2011 by plante1999]
[Edited on 11-8-2011 by plante1999]
I never asked for this.
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#maverick#
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metabisulfite + hcl creates SO2 and you pass that thru h2o2 and get H2SO4 the
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Mixell
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What about burning sulfur to get the SO2?
You can even try and make it via the SO3 route (vanadium pentoxide is available on ebay), although its quite complicated and the yield can be quite
poor.
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MrHomeScientist
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What are the details on this? Are you saying you can distill sulfuric acid from iron(II) sulfate? If you've got a reference I'd love to read about it,
as I have quite a bit of FeSO4 "waste".
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plante1999
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Simply make a google search :
FeSO4 dry distill H2SO4
It was the first process for sulfuric acid production.
I tested it and it worked good , but you need to heat with a 700 degree Celcius torch.
I never asked for this.
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hissingnoise
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On heating hydrated ferrous sulphate (green vitriol), impure sulphuric acid will come over, but heating the ferric compound will produce a mix of
SO<sub>2</sub> and SO<sub>3</sub> which can be led into conc. H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> to produce
oleum.
Using water to absorb SO<sub>3</sub> will produce a troublesome acid mist . . .
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Neil
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I'd check around a bit more if I were you.
The web says sulphuric is banned in Au as a food additive but I could find no encompassing ban.
Cleaning Sulphuric acid sometimes gets banned when people pass "sulphate bans". That happened to the area where I live, all it meant was that the
retail places didn't carry it. If I wanted it I had to drive over to a different county or look in the business parks.
Mind you most of the hardware stores started carrying a sketchy Quebec drain opener which is sulphuric and has no MSDS... but I digress...
Try calling up a cleaning supply wholesaler. Instead of buying car batteries have a big pile of rusty steel that you need to pickle...
Also the company that made MOFLO still lists it as a product on their website http://www.momar.com.au/content_common/pg-plumbing-drain-unb... if you ask em they may give you a list of distributors.
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cyanureeves
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go to a junk yard and tell them to sell you used battery acid. it aint like the employees there are the highest paid in the country so they'll maybe
want to make a buck. i bet you all they want is the core and i figured that if lead goes through passivation then the lead that has reacted with
sulfuric acid will be in the sediment and on the plates leaving relatively clean sulfuric acid in the carcass.
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starman
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Pthalic acid.You want "fume free",or" low fume" acid from a swimming pool supplier,Its 30% H2SO4 and reasonably clear.You may have to check around a
bit,but you are certain to find 5 and 20 litre containers.
Chemistry- The journey from the end of physics to the beginning of life.(starman)
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Panache
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they sell mo flo 98% h2so4 draincleaner at reece, tradelink and selected hardware stores, expensive though, $40.00/l. I think at reece they want you
to be an account holder, i'd say you'd know a plumber or two (being a sheety) so voila!
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boonga
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Hey Phthalic,
I'm from Melb and have also run into this problem. I obtained a few litres of battery acid from local automotive stores. Here too, they do not sell
directly to the public as it is prohibited. However, I simply told the clerk that I purchased a "dry" battery from interstate (ie; the battery was
delivered to my home without the electrolyte (H2S04/H20 mixture). This isn't abnormal, many people who purchase motor bike parts and the likes run
into this problem. I was able to purchase a 1L bottle for $12. Visiting 3-4 stores solved my problem. Concentrating it after was easy, i used the
method from this website: http://amazingrust.com/experiments/how_to/Concentrating_H2SO... You probably already know how to do it, but i find extra info is always helpful
one way or another  . After boiling, i ended up with just under 1L (about 850ml)
of concentrated acid. The density of the final liquid was around 1.83 (using a battery hydrometer) which is equivalent to a concentration of 95% give
or take...good enough for any home experiments surely.
Hope this helps,
Good luck
Boonga
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Bismuth
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If you're committed, I know you can find 20kg of 98.5% for the price of $25 in central Melbourne. Sold to even regular average day joes provided you
can come up with a reason for needing it (not exactly hard). Industrial suppliers are more than happy to help people out still. It's a rather useful
reagent, and really it's not one that comes to mind in their eyes as to being overtly suspicious. The only terms of agreement was that it has to be
transported separate to the nitric acid, ie. individual trips.
People just need to do some more looking in my opinion.
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Phthalic Acid
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Thanks a lot for all the replies and suggestions guys!
Now a few of you have said that I need to look a bit harder and stuff like that. In my defence, the point of this thread was to save me time in
tracking it down by using information that others in my situation provide (and gain some knowledge of the local/national laws).
Anyway, thanks a lot this pretty much solves my problem  I'm in QLD by the way,
Gold Coast to be exact. Anyone else from around here?
EDIT: Thanks Panache, there's a Tradelink just down the road from where I work! I'll give that a shot tomorrow (although that does sound a tad
pricey...)
[Edited on 12-8-2011 by Phthalic Acid]
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Neil
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Does anyone know why it is illegal to sell it to the public? Is it anti terror/drug/bomb making or just nanny-ism?
A good rule of thumb that has served me well in locating reagents is to type in synonyms for the reagent along with "msds" and local retail names into
google.
for example if I type in "sodium bromide, msds, Canadian tire"
I find the msds for what ever product Canadian tire sells that contains what I want.
I found KNO3, NaBr, 30%H2O2 and KOH that way. It's easier then reading every isle in the cleaning section with old women glaring at you... 
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Mixell
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If you have the ability to reach high temperatures (700C or more) you can decompose CuSO4 or any other sulfate that form an oxide of the metal and
SO3, lead the SO3 vapors into water and you can get a very concentrated sulfuric acid, or even oleum! Although its very risky and better just buy the
acid from somewhere if you manage to...
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