Acetic Acid
Hazard to Self
Posts: 95
Registered: 14-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Heating element temperatures?
What are the normal temperatures for some common heating elements? (hotplate, bunsen burner, propane torch etc)
I have a hotplate that reaches 400C, is that good?
|
|
|
redox
Hazard to Others
Posts: 268
Registered: 22-2-2011
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chalcogenetic
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Acetic Acid  | What are the normal temperatures for some common heating elements? (hotplate, bunsen burner, propane torch etc)
I have a hotplate that reaches 400C, is that good? |
400C is good, you never really need more than that. My Corning hotplate/stirrer claims to reach 500C, but I doubt that.
For a propane torch, you can expect a flame temperature between 1800-1950C, and I think the maximum is about 2000C. Butane is comparable.
Bunsen burners are usually methane (natural gas), and have similar flame temperatures as propane.
MAPP gas torches can go a bit hotter than propane, I think they burn just above 2000C in air.
These figures were if the fuel was burning in just air. Oxygen boosts the temperatures way higher. Oxy-acetylene torches burn at 3100C. This is
compared to air-acetylene which burns at 2400C.
Dicyanoacetylene, N≡C-C≡C-C≡N, burns in oxygen at 4990C!
Needless to say, this compound is quite reactive.
Do you have a torch, Acetic? I have a propane torch, and a MAPP/propane oxy-torch. I also have a tank of argon for welding purposes and as an inert
gas.
[Edited on 28-8-2011 by redox]
My quite small but growing Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RealChemLabs
Newest video: Synthesis of Chloroform
The difference between chemists and chemical engineers: Chemists use test tubes, chemical engineers use buckets. |
|
|
Acetic Acid
Hazard to Self
Posts: 95
Registered: 14-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
4990C, wow! I'm looking to get a torch, but I wanted to get a grasp on what I'm dealing with first. Aren't those temperatures high enough to mess up
glassware to an extent?
|
|
|
redox
Hazard to Others
Posts: 268
Registered: 22-2-2011
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chalcogenetic
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Acetic Acid | | 4990C, wow! I'm looking to get a torch, but I wanted to get a grasp on what I'm dealing with first. Aren't those temperatures high enough to mess up
glassware to an extent? |
It depends what kind of glass. Soda-lime can be melted quite easily with a propane torch, but it would be difficult to (maybe) soften borosilicate.
Oxy-acetylene torches are usually used to fashion pieces made of borosilicate.
It also depends on what shape/size glass you are trying to soften. Thin glass tubing is much more easily melted than, say, an Erlenmeyer flask.
You definitely should buy a torch. The torches aren't very expensive, and the fuel canisters a cheap and they last quite a long time. The oxygen
canisters empty much more quickly, as the oxygen is not liquified, only compressed.
What kind of torch were you thinking of buying? MAPP? Propane? Oxy-propane?
My propane torch has been sufficient for all of my high-temperature needs thus far, but I have the separate oxy torch just in case.
[Edited on 28-8-2011 by redox]
My quite small but growing Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RealChemLabs
Newest video: Synthesis of Chloroform
The difference between chemists and chemical engineers: Chemists use test tubes, chemical engineers use buckets. |
|
|
Acetic Acid
Hazard to Self
Posts: 95
Registered: 14-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It depends on the cost. I doubt I will need anything above a propane torch. Do I need any special equipment (welding mask, special gloves) for these
torches?
|
|
|
redox
Hazard to Others
Posts: 268
Registered: 22-2-2011
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chalcogenetic
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Acetic Acid | | It depends on the cost. I doubt I will need anything above a propane torch. Do I need any special equipment (welding mask, special gloves) for these
torches? |
No, No. Welding masks are for flames and welding that emit very bright light. A regular propane torch has only a light blue flame.
I don't think gloves are necessary, as long as you don't handle what you are heating, or you don't stick your hand in the flame.
My quite small but growing Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RealChemLabs
Newest video: Synthesis of Chloroform
The difference between chemists and chemical engineers: Chemists use test tubes, chemical engineers use buckets. |
|
|
Acetic Acid
Hazard to Self
Posts: 95
Registered: 14-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Lol ;-)
Where can I get a propane torch? What's the approximate cost? How many gas cylinders should I start with?
|
|
|
redox
Hazard to Others
Posts: 268
Registered: 22-2-2011
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chalcogenetic
|
|
Propane torches and fuel can be bought cheaply at Home Depot, Lowes, Ace Hardware, etc. They usually have quite a variety. You probably want a
BernzOmatic brand torch. A regular brass torch will be about 15$. 16.92 oz of propane is about 3$ on Home Depot's website. Needless to say, this is
quite cheap. MAPP gas is more. One gas cylinder lasts for quite a bit, as the propane is liquefied. I always have an extra, just in case mine runs out
in the middle of an experiment and I need another.
My quite small but growing Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RealChemLabs
Newest video: Synthesis of Chloroform
The difference between chemists and chemical engineers: Chemists use test tubes, chemical engineers use buckets. |
|
|
Acetic Acid
Hazard to Self
Posts: 95
Registered: 14-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Should I get a torch where it is trigger-activated, or automatically held on?
|
|
|
redox
Hazard to Others
Posts: 268
Registered: 22-2-2011
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chalcogenetic
|
|
My torch does not have a trigger, I just bought one of those neat-o flint sparker things. A trigger would probably be helpful and convenient. You
definitely want a torch that stays on, you don't want to have to hold it all the time. 
Here's a picture of the sparker I'm talking about.
[Edited on 28-8-2011 by redox]
My quite small but growing Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RealChemLabs
Newest video: Synthesis of Chloroform
The difference between chemists and chemical engineers: Chemists use test tubes, chemical engineers use buckets. |
|
|
Acetic Acid
Hazard to Self
Posts: 95
Registered: 14-8-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Omg... reminds me of last year when I was trying to light a bunsen burner in AP Chemistry. This was near the beginning of the year, and for the life
of me I couldn't ignite it. I always had to ask my teacher to light it for me, and it was not until the end of the year that I realized that my lab
station carried a broken striker. >.<
Yes I wouldn't mind using one of those to light a torch, but on another note, what kind of fire extinguisher is best? I've been lacking one for far
too long now. 
|
|
|
redox
Hazard to Others
Posts: 268
Registered: 22-2-2011
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chalcogenetic
|
|
IIRC, I have an A-B-C fire extinguisher, which covers combustible materials, flammable liquids, gases, and electrical fires. I then also have a bucket
of sand, which would qualify as a "D" extinguisher, as it could put out burning metals, such as magnesium or titanium. Other inert compounds would
also work.
I would suggest a similar set-up for you.
My quite small but growing Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RealChemLabs
Newest video: Synthesis of Chloroform
The difference between chemists and chemical engineers: Chemists use test tubes, chemical engineers use buckets. |
|
|
Neil
National Hazard
Posts: 556
Registered: 19-3-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
MAPP gas has not been available for several years. When it ceased to be produced
Bernzomatic and other distributors stopped selling their "Brazing fuel" product and started selling it as MAP PRO/ MaP/MAPP/MAPP PRO, etc but it is
not the original MAPP gas.
The original MAPP burned much hotter, faster etc all together a much better fuel then the crap they replaced it with, the old brazing fuel/new MAPP is
nothing more then dirty propylene.
A number of stores (such as Canadian tire) still claim to sell the methylacetylene-propadiene propane version of MAPP (the real stuff) but they do
not.
MAP PRO/MAPP gasses work better for a number of things because they have a huge volume of heat (as well as being hotter), a copper joint that can not
be lead/tin sweated with propane can easily be sweated with the other gasses.
Without using oxygen I can braze a copper joint with MAPP (I stocked up) that I can not get hot enough to sweat with lead/tin using propane. The
propylene gas in the same use can get the joint hot enough to use lead or even silver but not a brazing rod.
Using MAP PRO in a propane torch not rated for it can kill the torch in short order - spend more get a good torch with a knob to control your flame
size, trigger starts are just something to break, in my experience.
If you plan on making things with your torch a cheap pencil style screw on propane torch is great. you can silver soldier most joints very well but
they have no wind resistance and so are useless outside.
I have a number of torches and each gets it's own use. A plumbing style MAPP/propane torch is great for heating crucibles and simple brazing, a
propane pencil torch excels at silver work, a oxy/fuel torch brazes very well and welds okay, a blow pipe does wonders for heating small things with a
kerosene lamp flame and so on.
A oxy/propane/MAP PRO torch is useful but if you think you are going to be using it a lot consider the cost of a couple disposable cans of O2 will
quickly weigh you down VS spending the money and getting a portable acetylene/O2 unit with refillable bottles.
Keep a few extra flints for your striker or use a lighter/matches to light a candle or some other flame source and use that flame source as a pilot
light, lighting a torch with a lighter or matches is bad practice.
Anytime anything you are heating is near white heat consider wearing a shade 4 or 5 lens regardless of your flame source, your eyes will thank you.
|
|
|
Endimion17
International Hazard
Posts: 1468
Registered: 17-7-2011
Location: shores of a solar sea
Member Is Offline
Mood: speeding through time at the rate of 1 second per second
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by redox | 400C is good, you never really need more than that. My Corning hotplate/stirrer claims to reach 500C, but I doubt that.
For a propane torch, you can expect a flame temperature between 1800-1950C, and I think the maximum is about 2000C. Butane is comparable.
Bunsen burners are usually methane (natural gas), and have similar flame temperatures as propane.
MAPP gas torches can go a bit hotter than propane, I think they burn just above 2000C in air.
These figures were if the fuel was burning in just air. Oxygen boosts the temperatures way higher. Oxy-acetylene torches burn at 3100C. This is
compared to air-acetylene which burns at 2400C.
Dicyanoacetylene, N≡C-C≡C-C≡N, burns in oxygen at 4990C!
Needless to say, this compound is quite reactive.
Do you have a torch, Acetic? I have a propane torch, and a MAPP/propane oxy-torch. I also have a tank of argon for welding purposes and as an inert
gas. |
Maybe you live in an oxygen enriched enviroment  , but propane (propane-butane)
torches and Bunsen burners don't reach those temperatures where I live.
Pure propane is rather rare, and is usually sold as a mixture of propane and butane. These torches claim the highest temperature of 1750 °C, and that's really the peak with no practical value. I've got one of those and it can
really blast some serious bluish-violet flame.
Bunsen burners are just devices which can be used with propane-butane or methane. I connect mine to PB tank and it can give a deep blue, almost violet
flame. Very, very hot, but not very usable as the heat output is low.
Cited temperatures of best flames in Bunsen burners are 1500 °C, 1560 °C, 1570 °C, but those are ideal conditions and measurements of small parts
of those flames.
I'd say that in normal conditions, with PB and with air valves fully opened, the usable portion of the flame is quite lower than 1500 °C.
Your estimates of 2000 °C are blown out of every proportion, even for LP torches that suck surrounding air. If that was the case I'd have no problems
with flameworking, and I do.
|
|
|
redox
Hazard to Others
Posts: 268
Registered: 22-2-2011
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chalcogenetic
|
|
That's all my figures were, estimates. Evidently they were a couple hundred degrees too high.
My quite small but growing Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RealChemLabs
Newest video: Synthesis of Chloroform
The difference between chemists and chemical engineers: Chemists use test tubes, chemical engineers use buckets. |
|
|
Wizzard
Hazard to Others
Posts: 337
Registered: 22-3-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I have a hard time getting glass to really liquify with my standard Propane torch, at full blast... I dont think I'm doing anything wrong, just some
feedback here on propane 
|
|
|
redox
Hazard to Others
Posts: 268
Registered: 22-2-2011
Location: The Land of Milk and Honey
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chalcogenetic
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Wizzard | | I have a hard time getting glass to really liquify with my standard Propane torch, at full blast... I dont think I'm doing anything wrong, just some
feedback here on propane |
Glass liquefies at a very high temperature, but could you get it to soften or melt slightly?
My quite small but growing Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RealChemLabs
Newest video: Synthesis of Chloroform
The difference between chemists and chemical engineers: Chemists use test tubes, chemical engineers use buckets. |
|
|
Wizzard
Hazard to Others
Posts: 337
Registered: 22-3-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Barely enough to work with, and impossible with anything larger than 1/2". I have trouble even doing thick-walled 1/2" tube. I'm looking for cold
syrup consistence, getting cold silly putty.
|
|
|
simba
Hazard to Others
Posts: 175
Registered: 20-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by redox |
Dicyanoacetylene, N≡C-C≡C-C≡N, burns in oxygen at 4990C!
Needless to say, this compound is quite reactive.
|
wow, I will be making diamonds with my barbecue charcoal when torches of this come out! 
|
|
|
Neil
National Hazard
Posts: 556
Registered: 19-3-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I can get borosilicate to soften/join with one of these and I can get soda/silica glasses to liquify/flow like molasses
Is your torch a pencil flame or a plumbers soldiering flame?
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
