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thunderfvck
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Battery acid
I just got some car batteries from a friend of mine and I'm planning on concentrating the H2SO4 inside them. I am sick of my disgusting drain
cleaner. It is disgraceful.
I am concerned about the lead/other impurities, however. When I drained the batteries (used batteries), you wouldn't believe the mess it was.
BLACK as night, so much garbage is in there. However, I filtered a bit of it with some coffee filters and the resulting liquid was pretty clear
looking. So I can get rid of the color, thank god (a problem I wasn't able to solve in the drain cleaner). So, what kind of impurities are we
talking about here? Are these impurities extremely BAD, do I risk screwing up further experiments as a result?
I know I am probably better off buying the electrolyte directly from an auto parts dealer, however this is more exciting. Besides, I had gone to
Canadian Tire and they just kind of scoffed at me. I haven't tried anywhere else but I'm sure I could find it. Anyways, I assume this
electrolyte refill would be pure H2SO4, well dilute anyway?
After spending a good half hour trying to pry open three of the batteries I had gotten, I wonder, why do they sell refill if it's almost
impossible to open the batteries? How are you supposed to get the electrolyte inside without tearing the lid off?
Thanks a bundle.
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Esplosivo
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Lead impurities are very few. We are talking about a very small quantity of lead sulphate in solution (lead sulphate is very very slightly soluble in
water, and even less soluble in sulphuric acid) and some lead (IV) oxide (PbO2) which passed during filtration. The black solid you filtered off is
mostly PbO2 - if you collect it and decide to use that for any experiment just wash it in water and filter a couple of times.
Some battries, like the ones I have at home, have screw openings at the top from where sulphuric acid may be added. In Malta I have seen only a few of
these sealed battries, most of which are used for power supplies such as for USPs (old ones).
Out of point but lead (IV) oxide can be used to carry out many reactions, so don't throw it away. It can be heated to form PbO. PbSO4 can be made
by passing SO2 gas through PbO2, and also by mixing PbO2 with sulphuric acid (-ie if next time you want sulphuric acid out of your battries, charge
them first - this will give you a better 'yield' ). PbO2 can also be used to produce chlorine by reaction with HCl, together with other
reactions.
[Edited on 3-4-2004 by Esplosivo]
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Mumbles
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Were the batteries recharged or just left uncharged?
If charged the impurities should be manageable. If uncharged the Acid would be pretty weak, and probably not worth concentrating. It addition to
that it would be decently contaminated.
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Quantum
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How did the auto store owner scoff at you? I would try and look clean and neat and if that dosn't work then just yell at them that your going to
a diffrent store that wants to *gasp* make money.
What if, what is isn\'t true?
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tom haggen
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First of all when you go to an auto parts store you have to show a little intelligence. Going in there asking for electrolyte isn't going to get
you anywhere. All that shit is, is water with some type of electrolyte in it (NaCl, KCl). You must ask for battery acid. If they flip you any shit
just tell them that your going to be anodizing some aluminum. There are countless applications for using H2SO4 in the shop besides making explosives.
I think your crazy for wasting all that time filtering acid out of a battery. You were better off recharging those batteries so you could have a 12v
power source lying around.
[Edited on 4-4-2004 by tom haggen]
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thunderfvck
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I don't know whether or not they were charged. A friend of mine had them lying around his house so I assume they're uncharged.
The guy at Canadian Tire looked at me strangley and told me that if I needed to have my battery refilled I'd have to bring it in and they'd
do it for five dollars. He told me they don't sell battery acid and in stating this he made it seem like it was ridiculous to ask about it. Like,
who the hell sells battery acid? That's the impression I got from the guy. I guess I should do some more searching.
I should add that when I asked many of my friends about obtaining battery acid, they all had no idea about it, as though it isn't even for sale.
And these people are car fanatics, you'd think they'd have seen this before. Could it be possible that it just isn't available here in
Quebec?
Yes, so assuming these batteries are uncharged and I have mega impurities. I filter it using coffee filters until the solution is clear. How massively
contaminated is this solution? Will it pose a threat to any future experiments? How might one go about purifying this, if it is at all possible?
Once I get my scale (I've been waiting about three weeks - those fuckers) I'll be able to tell all of you how concentrated this solution is.
Thanks.
[Edited on 4-4-2004 by thunderfvck]
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unionised
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There is a lot to be said for keeping chlorides out of lead acid batteries.
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tom haggen
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Thunder, I'm telling you, don't even tell them that your wanting to refill your battery. That is ridiculous and its a waste of time to do
so. Thats probably why they were playing games. Find a new store and tell them that your going to be anodizing some aluminum. A lot of auto parts
stores infact don't sell sulphuric acid. I've had good results with NAPA.
[Edited on 4-4-2004 by tom haggen]
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thunderfvck
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Well I want to Auto Parts Pincourt, my local auto parts supplier, and YES!!
I got 20 L of 35% H2SO4 for $20!
Amazing deal. AMAZING. Thanks Tom, for pushing me to get off my ass. I am now ecstatic. TWENTY LITERS! I'll be able to make like 6 L of high
purity H2SO4, enough for ages. Excellent.
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thunderfvck
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Now to purify it...
I've done my reading on the subject. Seems pretty straight forward, however I have a couple of questions..
So I boil the stuff. Alright, wait until I see the thick white fumes and then stop. Correct? Or do I let it fume out for awhile to ensure that
it's 98%?
I am using a huge 6 liter flat bottomed flask to do the boiling. Is this bad? The flask is pyrex, blah, so I guess it can withstand the temperatures.
However I read something about steam exploding? I don't know, this doesn't sound right. But the flask has a fairly narrow top so I can
imagine the steam inside would get quite hot and concentrated. Anyway, is there any problem with using this? The flask is half full...
People have said that heating directly on the hot plate is bad. Well how bad is this? I have read that sand should be used or a high boiling oil. I do
not have access to this at the moment, what kind of risks am I taking by just heating directly on the hot plate?
It is being stirred, BTW, no boiling stones though...I guess I should smash a mug or something...
Thanks guys.
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tom haggen
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You only have to worry about steam explosions if your distilling H2SO4. I think. but your just concentrating so you shouldn't have to worry.
Just check the weight of your acid against a density chart to determine concentration. You'll have to heat it well past the point that it starts
fuming. It will put off massive amounts of acid vapors. It's a process that could potentially draw a lot of attention to your "lab"
But if you don't have any illegal explosives lying around you shouldn't have much to worry about. I put my flask directly on a hot coil all
the time, thats not to say that it is safe. But I stand back while the water boils out of my acid, and its out in the garage. So if the worst case
scenerio were to happen (the flask cracking during concetration) I would be prepared. Just keep in mind that if you were to splash boiling hot H2SO4
on your skin it will burn through it immediately. By the way did they question you when you bought your acid this time?
[Edited on 5-4-2004 by tom haggen]
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thunderfvck
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Nope. No questions asked. Worked wonderfully. Last time I go to Canadian Tire.
It looks like this is going to take a long time...It's been going for four hours, it took two hours just to start boiling. Man.
It had the density written on the box. It coressponds to 35%. However I'm going to bring some to my drug dealer friend and use his scale to
double check. Chemistry is fun.
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Quantum
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I got a cheap but good scale. It can hold 100g and is 0.1g accurate. Cost = 28$
This guy sells them cheap and he is funny:
http://www.oldwillknott.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/37104.2.4710613738612779157/triton_miniscale.html
What if, what is isn\'t true?
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tom haggen
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I have a density chart for sulphuric acid if you want me to email you a copy.
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thunderfvck
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Nono. I ordered a scale. 0.01 g resolution for $50. I'm just waiting for it to come, it's been three goddamned weeks.
I don't need a sulphuric acid density chart, I've found one. But thanks for offering.
Okay, well I tried checking the mass percentage of H2SO4 in the sample, and I got 74%? Wrong. Definitely not right.
It took 7.5 g of NaHCO3 to neutralize 11.8 g of the acid. I added water halfway because the mixture was getting nicely gooped. Could this have caused
something to go awrong?
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Quantum
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Wow! 0.01g you say? Please provide a link.
I really want to get some battery acid myself. After making 5 liters of sulfuric but finding out that the yeild couldn't be more than 10ml I got
pissed as my mood shows. I will need to get a cheap hotplate from walmart as the only source of portable heat I have is a colman that burns costly
fuel. Strong sulfuric is a staple to the home chemist. Making sulfates, making nitric, drying things out and a whole host of other uses abound! I will
not pay 7$ for 1 piss poor liter of nasty ass black as night second hand etheopian rejected drain cleaner! 15$ for 20L resulting in 6liters of the
good stuff(sounds a bit like drugs ) sounds a lot better to my ears.
What if, what is isn\'t true?
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tom haggen
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I used to have a scale that weighed down to .01 grams back in my younger stupid days. It was design for weighing gun powder. It dissappeared like all
things not earned honestly.
[Edited on 6-4-2004 by tom haggen]
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Mendeleev
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I boiled down drain cleaner directly on a hot plate. It worked just fine for about 6 times or so, but then I noticed cracks in the beaker recently.
They say you can put it directly onto a hot plate or burner, but apparently you can't. I will be writing those assholes, I want my fucking
beaker replaced. I don't mind drain cleaner on occasion, it works just fine for distilling nitric, however I try to use the clear sufuric from
NAPA unless I will be distilling something out of it. The advantage of drain cleaner is that you just pick it off the shelf in the hardware store.
At NAPA, they remember your face after you ask for sulfuric refills several times(and you do have to ask for it, it's in the back). I hate
fucking suspicious assholes. I had a guy at home depot ask me if I was building a bomb because I bought an oxygen tank. Stupid gestapo fuckface...
[Edited on 6-4-2004 by Mendeleev]
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thunderfvck
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http://scales.net/mn_prods/myriad_scale/myriad50_summ.php
It's only a little piece, one of those portable scales. However it's 0.01 g, and quite frankly I don't care how small it is. Most
jeweller's scales for at least $100 on ebay, so this is a great deal.
Quantum, you should really get a hotplate via ebay. I'm telling you man, CHEAP. The one I have is a piece, the stirring mechanism doesn't
work until the 4th setting (this can and must be repaired) hwever I only paid about $70 for it.
Mendeleev, what kind of beaker did you use? How serious are the cracks?
I'm getting pretty sick of using my 6 liter FB flask. It's taking the better half of the century to boil off all that water. It has been
running since 4 pm yesterday, it is now 1230pm of the NEXT DAY and I've lost about a liter of water. It's because of the small opening I
have on my flask, it doesn't allow much water to leave the flask. So I believe I will put it in nice glass pot when I get back from school, and
boil the living hell out of it.
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Saerynide
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| Quote: | Originally posted by thunderfvck
Mendeleev, what kind of beaker did you use? How serious are the cracks?
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My pryrex beaker died on a gas stove. It was only on there for about 10 min too
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thunderfvck
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I went to the store yesterday in hope of finding some glassware I could use. I found pretty much nothing except a Pyrex measuring cup (1 L) that
looked pretty decent. The glass was THICK. Anyways, so I bought it and brought it home, and the first thing I do is remove the Pryex
sticker..."Not for lab or stovertop use" is written underneath it, well son of a bitch!
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Saerynide
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What kinda pyrex glass dies that easily??
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vulture
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Strange. I only have borosilicate 3.3 glass, be it from Schott or Normag. This will stand up to pretty abusive spot heating on a ceramic
hotplate/stirrer.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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thunderfvck
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Fuck me.
You know what just fucking happened? Oh am I fucking PISSED FUCKING OFF.
I wanted to check the temperature of the goddamned H2SO4, but the level of it was way low and I couldn't get the thermometer in there with the
clamp I have. So I used my shirt to protect me from the heat while I lowered the thermometer. When I was raising it out of the fucking thing, the
motherfucker slipped and hit the bottom of the glass. My heart stopped. NO. NO!! THen nothing, I was thinking, okay, I'm alright, thank god. Then
I see mercury pouring its ugly head out of the fucker and all onto the bottom of the flask. I now have murcury in my concentrated hot sulphuric acid.
So there's definitely going to be a reaction going on. So my once pure H2SO4 is now contaminated. And I can't stand for this. So I stopped
the heat, removed the flask. DUmped the hot H2SO4 in a bucket and recovered the murcury. There was some yellow shit inside the flask and this only fed
my fury. I first took my keys and threw them across the room, knocking some movies over the shelf. I broke part of my keychain. Then I took the
thermometer and also threw that across the room to vanquish the evil forever. Now there's probably murcury lying in my basement in those damned
little beads of death. Fuck. THe stupid things you do when angry...
And this is the SECOND thermometer I've broken. The first time was completely retarded as I shocked the glass in cold water, it cracked and I was
miserable. Now I broke the SECOND fucking one, AND I fucked my H2SO4. I've been concentrating the H2SO4 for about two days now, it takes forever
in that flask. I am so angry. Like seriously, I am really, very unhappy right now. Now I have to order yet a THIRD thermometer, AND start all over
again with the H2SO4.
Or maybe not, what do you guys think? Should I ditch all the acid or what? How contaminated is it? It seems to have formed a yellow precipitate, so if
I filter it, would I be okay?
I'm such a fucking stupid fucking retard.
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BromicAcid
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How concentrated was your acid at this point? Production of either the mercurous sulfate or the mercuric sulfate is temperature and acid strength
dependent. If you managed to get the mercurous sulfate it is almost insoluble in cold concentrated sulfuric acid according to Hawley's Condensed
Chemical Dictionary (Note, mercurous sulfate is listed as being white to yellow in color). However the mercuric sulfate is readily soluble
supposedly. You could always do a quantitative test to determine the extent of mercury contamination.
The only one that I know of though is bubbling H2S through the mix, preferably in a small test tube. The sulfide would precipitate out hopefully.
I would be more concerned about the mercury spill. Not that I have some inherent fear of the stuff, but in that the EPA could very well designate
your house a Superfund site, they have done it before over one thermometer. I believe it cost the owner of the house in upwards of $40,000 for clean
up.
[Edited on 4/8/2004 by BromicAcid]
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