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Author: Subject: 4 Students Burned At Maple Grove Junior High
LearnedAmateur
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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 11:22


Hard to beat, but for some reason I lit petrol in my sink when I was younger, probably to test the flammability and to put it out with water if things got out of hand. I only used a few mLs, but the flames almost touched the roof and the room quickly filled with light smoke (luckily the door to the garage was only a couple of metres away). Not only that, but water didn’t put it out since petrol floats on top, so I was crapping my pants trying to get it out! Not even a burned hair though, not that I had much on my arms to begin with, so I managed to get away unscathed in the slightest. Definitely one of my safety cornerstones when it came to chemistry.



In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.

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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 12:06


I used to pour rubbing alcohol on my hand and light it; if you keep it moving, you can get away with it for a few seconds before you need to extinguish it with a sharp shake. One day, trying to impress a crush of mine, I decided to scale the trick up and set fire to my arm. It worked pretty well until it came time to shake it out: flicking my arm blew out the flame near my hand, but there wasn't enough linear velocity near my elbow, and it kept reigniting. :o:o:o
suffice to say, I flailed around the yard, developed surprisingly mild burns, and didn't impress anyone.




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LearnedAmateur
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[*] posted on 11-5-2018 at 13:06


I’m sure most of us have been there, my SO occasionally refers to me as an idiot and related terms when I try to ‘impress’ her with acts like that, namely lighting various chemicals on fire (especially when I spill flammables on my jeans) knowing fair well that the materials are actually quite difficult/impossible to ignite.



In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.

It’s been a while, but I’m not dead! Updated 7/1/2020. Shout out to Aga, we got along well.
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[*] posted on 3-7-2019 at 08:42


60 million at the end of the rainbow.
"Poole conducted the experiment, known as the Rainbow, at the prestigious Manhattan school with a gallon jug of methanol."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1025771
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[*] posted on 3-7-2019 at 13:20


I'm not sure if I see outlines of safety goggles on the face of the young man in the cbs news photo. The article doesn't mention if the students, who were standing so close, were wearing goggles, so I doubt they were. Sounds like these kids were lucky that things weren't worse.
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[*] posted on 3-7-2019 at 18:32


I wonder how exactly the accident went down, how the methanol lit and all.
https://nypost.com/2019/06/10/trial-begins-for-student-disfi...
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[*] posted on 3-7-2019 at 22:09


Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  
Judging by the article, it was a whoosh bottle experiment.


Here's a working link for that video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=RNOrM8fb...

I have to admit that it was pretty impressive that the round bottom flask being heated & stirred 2ft away - remaining on the hot plate after the explosion was pretty impressive.

I'm guessing this carboy was probably used many times for this demonstration and weakened each time. Also if you set them down too hard on the floor, like dropping the last 1/2" - 1" you can create very small cracks that can't be seen - the only thing that will give it away is the sound it makes - don't ask how I know. After that you loose like 50-90% of strength and slight pressure spreads the cracks very easily.
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[*] posted on 4-7-2019 at 07:01


Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  
Judging by the article, it was a whoosh bottle experiment.


Here's a working link for that video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=RNOrM8fb...

I have to admit that it was pretty impressive that the round bottom flask being heated & stirred 2ft away - remaining on the hot plate after the explosion was pretty impressive.

I'm guessing this carboy was probably used many times for this demonstration and weakened each time. Also if you set them down too hard on the floor, like dropping the last 1/2" - 1" you can create very small cracks that can't be seen - the only thing that will give it away is the sound it makes - don't ask how I know. After that you loose like 50-90% of strength and slight pressure spreads the cracks very easily.


The article said it was a rainbow fire experiment so I imagined it was something similar to what happened at a nightclub I used to go to that served flaming hurricanes, often most popular a few days before an actual hurricane making a possible landfall in the vicinity.
The libation was topped with 151 rum and lit on fire. Unfortunately this one time the flame traveled into the bottle, ejecting the alcohol and lighting a length of the bar on fire along with some minor burns, thus causing an end to that particular variation of the drink being served.
So in a quirky sense, if this scenario was the case, you might indeed say it was a whoosh bottle effect.

"Poole conducted the experiment, known as the Rainbow, at the prestigious Manhattan school with a gallon jug of methanol. She intended to show how salts change color when exposed to methanol."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1025771

Another account
"In “After the Rainbow” Calais describes how she was standing in the first row as matches were dropped into each little dish. When one flame began to dim, Calais’s teacher reached for a gallon-sized bottle of methanol. She began to pour the liquid on the open flame, and it exploded. “And because I was right in front, I got the brunt of it, “Calais recalls. “I remember thinking, ‘I’m on fire. Oh, my gosh, I’m on fire.’”
https://www.csb.gov/csb-releases-safety-message-on-preventin...


[Edited on 4-7-2019 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 4-7-2019 at 08:15


Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
reading the comments is depressing, kids are taught to be gutless whiners from day one it seems.

No wonder we're int he state we are! as a kid I been shocked set on fire hit by stuff, you shake it off, get patched up and keep going, and yet they said they where all hysterical and crying and huddled? WTF?

Are schools covered in foam now days with safe spaces at every corner and crisis councilor should a finger nail break?

Only one kid has a reason to be annoyed and that's the one still in hospital the rest should be told to get a grip and continue on with a big stamp saying "Welcome to life, it doesn't get any easier from here"

This should be used as a learning event of why it is important to not panick and have a plan of action!


Yeah, if that happened when I was in school (mid 90's) I think a lot of us would have been looking around in shock/disbelief/WTF looks, others would be laughing (a shock type laughing) that they were still alive and uninjured, some saying things like "I don't think it was supposed to do that" or "was that supposed to happen?", and then there might be one or two who cried out of fear - we always had to wear kid gloves around them couldn't hurt their precious feelings.
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[*] posted on 4-7-2019 at 08:22


Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Reminds me of a similar incident in 2006, where a methanol fire/explosion injured school students: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6vR0BdRCNY


Wow, that teacher was a total F'in idiot! I am not one to support sueing but that teacher should have lost her job (forever) and the district sued. Pouring fuel on an open flame from a non-controlled spout inside a building w/ no fume hood. Lots of problems with that.

This is a similar incident to the OP but it's in China and they are trying to add fuel to a table side hot plate (flame heated) by pouring liquid into it - it's pretty bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELhgXeZMHsA
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[*] posted on 4-7-2019 at 08:38


I'm wondering if it could have been one of these. Some might call it a "woosh" jar, it works on similar principle but it's more like a pulse jet. Here's some video of it being done in a glass jar - which breaks - and I could see liquid being spewed out doing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_WYUTtrYiA
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[*] posted on 4-7-2019 at 08:43


Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
I wonder how exactly the accident went down, how the methanol lit and all.
https://nypost.com/2019/06/10/trial-begins-for-student-disfi...


This is really messed up b/c the EXACT same thing happened a year prior in Ohio, same experiment, same mistake. The girl in the video ended up being put in a coma for 2 months!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6vR0BdRCNY

Something doesn't smell right here. I can't believe a teacher at a "prestegious" Manhattan high school wouldn't hear about a major classroom accident in her field, doing experiments that she did. I think something is off.
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[*] posted on 4-7-2019 at 08:53


Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  
Judging by the article, it was a whoosh bottle experiment.


Here's a working link for that video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=RNOrM8fb...

I have to admit that it was pretty impressive that the round bottom flask being heated & stirred 2ft away - remaining on the hot plate after the explosion was pretty impressive.

I'm guessing this carboy was probably used many times for this demonstration and weakened each time. Also if you set them down too hard on the floor, like dropping the last 1/2" - 1" you can create very small cracks that can't be seen - the only thing that will give it away is the sound it makes - don't ask how I know. After that you loose like 50-90% of strength and slight pressure spreads the cracks very easily.


The article said it was a rainbow fire experiment so I imagined it was something similar to what happened at a nightclub I used to go to that served flaming hurricanes, often most popular a few days before an actual hurricane making a possible landfall in the vicinity.
The libation was topped with 151 rum and lit on fire. Unfortunately this one time the flame traveled into the bottle, ejecting the alcohol and lighting a length of the bar on fire along with some minor burns, thus causing an end to that particular variation of the drink being served.
So in a quirky sense, if this scenario was the case, you might indeed say it was a whoosh bottle effect.

"Poole conducted the experiment, known as the Rainbow, at the prestigious Manhattan school with a gallon jug of methanol. She intended to show how salts change color when exposed to methanol."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1025771

Another account
"In “After the Rainbow” Calais describes how she was standing in the first row as matches were dropped into each little dish. When one flame began to dim, Calais’s teacher reached for a gallon-sized bottle of methanol. She began to pour the liquid on the open flame, and it exploded. “And because I was right in front, I got the brunt of it, “Calais recalls. “I remember thinking, ‘I’m on fire. Oh, my gosh, I’m on fire.’”
https://www.csb.gov/csb-releases-safety-message-on-preventin...


[Edited on 4-7-2019 by Morgan]


WTF. They release a video about this specific incidnet and then it happens 2x in about 11-12 months time! It sounds like it just spread idiocracy instead of stopping it.


I would think that using some kind of salt would be much better than using liquid. Maybe soak a piece of cotton rope/wick in a solution of the salt and then light the wicks?

Would the cotton effect the color of the flame? I'm guessing it would add yellow/orange to the flame if the alcohol had dried (leaving a salt impregnated wick), but with an alcohol burner that has the salt mixed in, it should burn the color of the salt, right?
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[*] posted on 4-7-2019 at 09:37


The rainbow just keeps on giving.

"City educators, parents and students were sickened Thursday to hear an Upper West Side teacher found a pot of cash and a cushy job at the end of a rainbow experiment that burned two students."
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/promotion-out...

Late to class ...
"Education Department investigators determined months after the tragedy that Poole caused the fireball by pouring the jug of methanol directly onto dishes that had just been on fire. Witnesses testified she attempted to restart the demonstration involving methanol, mineral salts and multi-colored flames for students arriving late to class."
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-alonzo-yanes-verdict...

Little dishes of methanol and colorant salts would hardly be of much danger but pouring from a gallon jug of methanol into a lit dish or having the gallon jug anywhere near the demonstration is a whoosh bottle waiting to happen.

If you want an impressive 5 meter long fireball/whoosh bottle, you can run a paintball tank jam jar style with some methanol for several seconds until it flames out from overheating throwing off the fuel/air ratio and then relight the vessel which will produce a very tall flame from the unburnt evaporating methanol. Then tilt the flaming bottle sideways which flashes the remaining methanol in the bottom of the bottle into steam.
The force of the sudden vaporization can be felt as thrust in your gloved hand and the enormous fireball is so sudden it's like a flashbulb with a pulse of heat that strikes your body when it happens, along with an attention getting sound.
The paintball tank has a 3/8 inch diameter plumbing pipe snorkel about 6 inches long that is also very hot and helps pressurize the ejection.

Something like this only glass will crack of course before getting really hot.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=d5MBb3qauQs

Or this, just light the tip with a lighter because the remaining hot fuel after it flames out is still evaporating very fast, and when tilted the methanol hits the very hot snorkel exhaust tube. The burst of energy is here and gone like an apparition, everything mixed and consumed like guncotton lit and dropped from the hand.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=uaf21ZwcbgE



[Edited on 4-7-2019 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 5-1-2022 at 09:12


The ongoing saga of improper methodology.

Video: A new TikTok trend is sending kids to the hospital
https://youtu.be/672mHmsiw8g

https://patch.com/connecticut/easthaven/boy-12-burn-center-a...

https://www.courant.com/breaking-news/hc-br-ct-tik-tok-whoos...

[Edited on 5-1-2022 by Morgan]
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[*] posted on 5-1-2022 at 09:29


Remember everybody don't watch or raise your children, let Social Media do it then blame them when your child gets injured.

No accountability these days, I am afraid for my children's future.
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[*] posted on 5-1-2022 at 09:32


wow it's weird how much media loves adding "challenge" to almost anything. no one ever called it a challenge

[Edited on 5-1-2022 by karolus28]




Hi, please read about exif data.
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[*] posted on 5-1-2022 at 11:26


Quote:
It is not clear if the students suffered chemical burns or were burned by fire.

one line later
Quote:
“My face was actually on fire,” said Neuberger.

freaking geniuses at the local news these days




[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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[*] posted on 5-1-2022 at 12:12


Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  
Quote:
It is not clear if the students suffered chemical burns or were burned by fire.

one line later
Quote:
“My face was actually on fire,” said Neuberger.

freaking geniuses at the local news these days


Most journalism degrees (assuming the reporter had a degree) do not require chemistry, they usually opt for a 'general science for the liberal arts', and frankly I wouldn't trust a 15 year old with a statement like that as absolute truth without knowing more. We know it was ethanol and a boric acid or sodium borate so that rules out chemical burns because those will not cause chemical burns. My guess is that none of the kids were severely injured based on the reporting. The teacher is likely to get a remedial course in fire safety.

A safer experiment is a 'tea candle' or burning match on a piece of foil and a bowl of isopropyl alcohol.
Put them about a foot apart and wait with everyone three feet back.
Best done in an area with no wind and concrete floor. But a lab bench will work.

It is an excellent demonstration of how vapors can travel and ignite.

[Edited on 5-1-2022 by macckone]
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[*] posted on 5-1-2022 at 12:25


A lot of people fail to understand that setting off an explosion in a vessel of flammable liquid can:

a) force the liquid out of the vessel.

b) ignite it as it comes out.



I’m still slightly pissed at those people who say you need to use a massive excess (10’s, 100’s of ml liquid for a 19 liter bottle) so you’ll get a richer mixture and less violent reaction. A quick look at the vapor pressure for methanol, ethanol, and 2 propanol shows that this doesn’t help.

I’d suggest they start using natural gas/propane for these demonstrations but I get this feeling someone would “be safe” by trying to feed a few kilos of it into the bottle and would instead get a huge fireball igniting outside of it…

[Edited on 6-1-2022 by Vomaturge]




I now have a YouTube channel. So far just electronics and basic High Voltage experimentation, but I'll hopefully have some chemistry videos soon.
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[*] posted on 5-1-2022 at 12:55


Quote: Originally posted by Vomaturge  
A lot of people fail to understand that setting off an explosion in a vessel of flammable liquid can:

a) force the liquid out of the vessel.

b) ignite it as it comes out.



I’m still slightly pissed at those people who say you need to use a massive excess (10’s, 100’s of ml liquid for a 19 liter bottle) so you’ll get a richer mixture and less violent reaction. A quick look at the vapor pressure for methanol, ethanol, and 2 propanol shows that this doesn’t work.

I’d suggest they start using natural gas/propane for these demonstrations but I get this feeling someone would “be safe” by trying to feed a few kilos of it into the bottle and would instead get a huge fireball igniting outside of it…


UEL of Isopropanol is 12%, vapor pressure is 33mm Hg, which is about 4.3%
UEL of Ethanol is 19%, vapor pressure is 44mm Hg or 5.8%.

A clear champage bottle works a lot better than a carboy.
If you use a carboy, use a polycarbonate one. If it explodes at least you don't have to deal with the shrapnel. It is also better in tension than glass.
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[*] posted on 5-1-2022 at 13:52


Setting a fire in a partially filled container that contains flammable liquid is always a very likely recipe for a disaster. No matter what is the outcome, it is undesirable, unless done in a controlled environment, remotely and directed by people who know what happens.

UE/LEL apply mostly in theory and statistics. Gases and aerosols are in constant motion, and unless the environment is a hermetically sealed, things will go wrong. Inert gas systems rely on large margins, they lower the oxygen content in the tanks very low, if I remember correctly, under 4% or something maximum.

I might be a party pooper, but I think burning solvents is blasphemy. Use them to purify compounds from black goo and recrystallize them. That's useful, and productive. Also, when doing pyrotechnic demonstrations, you only don't have to be chemist to know what the label says, you also have to be pyrotechnician or an energetics expert to understand how they behave when you lit them up. Perhaps you could demonstrate new chemists how labs blow up when you boil some flammable solvent in an open pot, and make them respect those things better and be more careful due to fear of the consequences they've witnessed.

Back in the days, I would wanna make energetics to get a bang bang. Nowadays I'd only make them to perfect the synthesis and recrystallize them out in their purest form ever.
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[*] posted on 5-1-2022 at 23:13


Quote:
From a previous post of mine, about whoosh bottles:

[Quote]methanol will form a perfectly oxygenated mixture when it makes up 12.3% of the air by volume. To do that in a 18.9l bottle at 20C requires 3.9ml* of alcohol to vaporize. Air saturated with it at 101.3 kPa and 20C will contain 12.85% methanol. For ethanol the values are 6.54%, 3ml*, and 5.95% respectively, and for 100% isopropyl alcohol they are 4.46%, 2.7ml*, and 4.4%. For methane, propane,butane and dimethyl ether measured in gas phase, the perfect concentrations and volume for a 18.9 l container are 9.5%/1.8L, 4%/760ml, 3.1%/590ml, and 6.5%/1.23L (White Rain hairspray has DME and a bit of EtOH, and based on small scale tests 15 seconds of spraying should make a flammable mixture in that size vessel. Not sure how much is the perfect amount)


So using any of the alcohols at room temperature, you'll never get anywhere close to the upper flammable limit. Even if you saturate the air with vapor you'll still have an almost perfectly stoichiometric ratio at 20C.

The only thing you might accomplish by leaving an excess liquid phase in the bottle is this.




I now have a YouTube channel. So far just electronics and basic High Voltage experimentation, but I'll hopefully have some chemistry videos soon.
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[*] posted on 6-1-2022 at 11:20


Quote:
Quote: Originally posted by Vomaturge  
From a previous post of mine, about whoosh bottles:

[Quote]methanol will form a perfectly oxygenated mixture when it makes up 12.3% of the air by volume. To do that in a 18.9l bottle at 20C requires 3.9ml* of alcohol to vaporize. Air saturated with it at 101.3 kPa and 20C will contain 12.85% methanol. For ethanol the values are 6.54%, 3ml*, and 5.95% respectively, and for 100% isopropyl alcohol they are 4.46%, 2.7ml*, and 4.4%. For methane, propane,butane and dimethyl ether measured in gas phase, the perfect concentrations and volume for a 18.9 l container are 9.5%/1.8L, 4%/760ml, 3.1%/590ml, and 6.5%/1.23L (White Rain hairspray has DME and a bit of EtOH, and based on small scale tests 15 seconds of spraying should make a flammable mixture in that size vessel. Not sure how much is the perfect amount)


So using any of the alcohols at room temperature, you'll never get anywhere close to the upper flammable limit. Even if you saturate the air with vapor you'll still have an almost perfectly stoichiometric ratio at 20C.

The only thing you might accomplish by leaving an excess liquid phase in the bottle is this.


That sort of a thing happened at Seville Quarter, a place in town that served flaming hurricanes. A bottle of 151 rum became a whoosh bottle lighting a length of the bar and few people on fire with minor burns prompting them to discontinue the flambe libation as was noted on the local news . The drink would be served in a very tall glass with ice topped with a sugar cube and 151 rum, an orange slice on the side. Maybe put a flame arrester in the pouring spout for the more flammable spirits.

One version
https://youtu.be/KQN4Pik87q4
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[*] posted on 6-1-2022 at 11:26


Or alternatively, pour your high proof liquor, close the bottle and set it aside, then ignite your drink…



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They're not really active right now, but here's my YouTube channel and my blog.
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