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Poll: Zero tolerance for meth cooks kewls and other troublemakers?
Zero tolerance for threads on the malicious manufacture of explosives and drugs. --- 26 (44.07%)
Tolerance for drug & bomb related threads is acceptable as it is. --- 33 (55.93%)

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Author: Subject: Zero tolerance for meth cooks kewls and other troublemakers?
White Yeti
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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 14:37
Zero tolerance for meth cooks kewls and other troublemakers?


Is it a good idea to have a zero tolerance towards cooks and kewls?

As an amateur chemist, I get many chemicals from the hardware store or online because the chemicals are cheap. Purity is nice to have for my purposes, but not absolutely critical.

But as many of you have noticed, the shelves in hardware stores which used to house all the chemicals a chemist would ever want, are growing emptier and emptier every year. This trend has not slowed down, and from the looks of it, this will continue for years to come. Even websites are placing restrictions on what you can and can't buy, and I have to say that some restrictions are over the top.

There are some chemicals that are disappearing from the shelves for other reasons. Sulphuric acid drain cleaner is being phased out because it destroys PVC piping, household ammonia is being phased out for somewhat obvious reasons.

But there are many chemicals you just can't find anymore because they can be used to make bombs or k3wls can use them to harm themselves or others.

We like to blame the DEA or the hardware stores, but ultimately it's the troublemakers that deprive home scientists of chemicals they use for legitimate experimentation. After all, it's because of cooks and k3wls that we have to jump through hoops to obtain the simplest of chemicals.

Note: Administrators do a fantastic job on keeping this forum at a remarkable level, many thanks to all who are involved.

So is zero tolerance a good idea?
It's about time we focus our wrath on kewls rather than the DEA.




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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 15:51


Both species endanger home science hobbies; I think most all agree. High energy experiments demand a great deal, yet people have to "start" somewhere.

{Now this is a tough one....} One has to deal with the "written word". Therefore all the body language and non-verbal communications are not available. Certainly simple ignorance of subject matter is a difficult thing to isolate unless we are dealing with "spoon-feeding" aspects of science that are freely available. If no indication of attempts at personal or community harm are apparent from the written query, how would we determine what is unacceptable aside from the Forum Rules? If a chemical has dual use (phosphorus for example) How would a question be isolated as a drug-manufacturing attempt? It would be important to rule out the "UTFSE response" because that's always been a viable solution.
Let's say I love the hobby concept of microscopy photography & therefore I may synthesize very small amounts of a material that could be used as an explosive device. Yet I do not include that in my question.....I'm a harmless guy. How can a written communication infer that?

Example: How would anyone know that I am smiling as I write this because I have thought along similar lines or I am frowning from concern over what I consider serious recent problems?

From an opinion standpoint this a great deal like pornography; it's tough to define but you know it when you see it. Purely from a rhetorical perspective; how and where would you draw the line?





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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 16:50


Whew, this is a tough one.

When I first joined here I was very intolerant of any drug related questions, to the point that I was even warned by Admin that I was out of place. I don't even support the current drug prohibitions, and really have nothing against those people who want to manufacture small amounts of CNS active compounds for themselves (even though its a stupid idea, IMO) as long as they are not putting others at risk with their wares. I was intolerant because I thought it would bring bad attention to this site, which I love like my own, and to my hobby, which is already under attack.

As far as energetics, I love doing small scale research into highly energetic materials. I have found this to be a really educational and fulfilling hobby. The idea of using energetic materials to cause deliberate loss of life or destruction of property is absolutely appalling to me, But I still don't think that I should not be allowed to discuss them or learn about them here just because some unstable people might use the info to hurt people or maim themselves. The fault lies in the perpetrator, not the information. Censoring knowledge will not stop senseless violence.

And for zero tolerance. I think a stance of zero tolerance is very rarely, if never a good policy. QS is right. How do you draw the line. Just recently I was needing help acquiring a chemical for perfectly legitimate purposes, but was scared to post about it because it is widely known as a drug precursor, and I knew that if I asked here, no matter how 'scientific" my query was, I would be labeled by my fellow members as a prospective cook.

I think we should continue with the way things are going. Scientifically versed and higher level discussions about CNS active compounds should be allowed, but pruned of "cookery," and discussions about energetics should be allowed as long as it is discussed in a safe, sane, and scientific manner (and avoiding 'practical application"). I feel that a lot of the problems with cooks and kewls have really thinned out as of late and I thoroughly enjoy and learn a lot from the vast majority of the content on SciMad. I think we should all do our best to keep an open mind and view each discussion/thread on its own merits. If I think a user has intentions of making energetics to use against people, animals, or property I will report it immediately. Likewise, if a user is asking for spoonfeeding on a controlled substance, or seems only interested in getting high or rich and has no interest in the chemistry then I will report it as well.

PS, in regards to your poll, there is a stern difference between 'energetic materials" and "bombs." In my mind, a bomb is a device employing energetic materials for the sole purpose of hurting people and/or destroying property. Any discussion of "bombs" should be removed promptly.




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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 17:01


Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  
Purely from a rhetorical perspective; how and where would you draw the line?


Recently, it seems like some users have asked if certain syntheses will yield a drug or a precursor to a drug rather than asking how to make it. Now, this is just my personal opinion, and many people might disagree, but I think that these people know that blatantly asking an obviously suspicious question about how to make drug precursors (or certain explosives) is not going to get them anywhere.

It seems that these questions are disguised as "would this reaction pathway work?" rather than "how do you make....?".

Where would you draw the line, well that's up to personal interpretation. But when you ask:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=18385
His intentions are a little suspicious to say the least. Notice that the OP did not in any way shape or form say that he was not interested in actually making the compound.

Personally, if I were to post something like that, I would at least say that I wanted to know solely out of curiosity, and that I had no intention of actually trying out the synthesis.




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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 17:27


Why, in the last year, have there been so many new members (registered within six months) that want to make changes to how the forum is run? It's not your forum.



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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 18:06


Entropy will sit this one out. Been there, done that.

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=12...




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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 18:27


Zero-tolerance policies are crutches that support (the lazy and/or gutless) those who would like to avoid having to make tough choices that might be held against them (while sounding "official" or acting in some "sanctioned" manner).

Pitiful... This would be especially so on a site that professes free-thought and scientific profundity.

Always author your laws to allow exception and take the time required to consider each case individually. For example, consider the case of a new (k3wl) member making an unattractive first post vs. a habitual, incorrigible "problem child": One should get a "slap-on-the-wrist/ego-->given-correct-direction", the other should have the "door-hit-their-ass-on-the-way-out."

I'd keep it the same,

O3


[Edited on 5-1-2012 by Ozone]




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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 19:18


We already chase off the people asking for spoonfeeding and "recipes" for common black market drugs. Getting any stricter would involve ostracizing an increasing range of interesting chemistry that lacks obvious black market incentives.

The DEA reported over 11000 drug lab seizures in 2010. The vast majority of these labs are tiny low-skill operations using over the counter decongestant pills as feedstock to make methamphetamine. We don't even have 11000 registered members here. Getting less tolerant here is spitting into the ocean as far as changing the condition of society or government regulations, and it has a significant downside of discouraging participation and encouraging a witch hunt mentality.

As far as the specific post you objected to, asking about 3,4-MD-Phenmetrazine, I think it perfectly illustrates why getting stricter here is unnecessary:

1) The proposed synthetic scheme already relied on DEA-listed chemicals (piperonal, nitroethane). There is no new threat to chemical availability in the proposed synthesis.

2) The proposed synthetic scheme is unworkable, so obviously it has not been tried.

3) The proposed product's activity was unknown and likely overestimated by the original reaction-scheme writer, so obviously it has not been tried.

4) Combining 2 and 3, it is apparent that the writer is dabbling in somewhat misinformed paper chemistry and pharmacology.

5) Why dabble in paper pharmacology at all, if the writer's goal is criminal profit? There are already drugs with established market demand and comparable or simpler syntheses. It seems to me that the writer must be more curious about chemistry and pharmacology than in making a quick dollar if he writes about this obscure compound. I think that discouraging such curiosity makes Sciencemadness poorer and the larger world no better off.




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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 19:45


Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
. Censoring knowledge will not stop senseless violence.

.


could not have put it a better way!!

i collect elements of the periodic table and i like the chemical challenges of isolating and creating different chemicals and re-testing analytical processes.
I have seen my hobby going downhill eversince the 90's and at a steeper rate since 9/11...
and i understand the reason of a crackdown.

but i think there is a dumbing down of people going on as well, science and math score in the US are at its lowest point since the 30's ! education does not allowed , encourage, or promote science enough (in my view)
TV programming are lame ,stupid, uninteresting, low and down right retarded..

so what do we have left as home scientist?
i have my books , and this forum. thats it.

i dont know ANYONE in my area who cares about astronomy ,physics and chemistry like i do.

i may be a bit naive but i voted NO .
i beleive someone who doesnt care about the science can be easily spoted .and i wouldnt hesitate to report him or her .
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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 19:50


Those who vote to not talk about drugs should never take any medication, not even aspirin because all those horrible drugs that is keeping your entire family alive and healthy spawned from people sitting around talking about drugs. The dumbing down of the population is what caused you to click the first option.




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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 19:55


read the question in the green frame
No ! keep it as it is is what i meant

[Edited on 5-1-2012 by neptunium]
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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 20:04


I totally agree with Bot0nist here. I don't like to see threads in which I can tell the end goal is to make drugs for use and when I was new here almost reported threads before I knew some of this talk was acceptable. But many of us are using these compounds for legitimate purpose and it is not worth it to sacrifice our discussion when in reality it will not prevent anyone from making bad choices. I think we do a good job to discourage those asking for recipes, so I vote to keep it as is.



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entropy51
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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 20:46


Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
We already chase off the people asking for spoonfeeding and "recipes" for common black market drugs.
Not to mention that Science Madness performs a valuable public service. By attracting the undesirable element we provide a focal point for the DEA to collect IP addresses of those that need attention. You did know that the government scoops up all the internet traffic and filters out the nuggets of information that serves its purposes, didn't you?

https://www.eff.org/issues/nsa-spying
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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 21:09


yeti, last i checked your youtube description it was so cloak and dagger it made you sound like a k3wl. Before you worry about SM going down hill, spend a day or two reading through detritus. there has always been a influx of K3wls and wanna be breaking bad meth heads. The K3wls ether grow up, get booted/flamed or vanish after discussing how much AP they were going to shove down the pants. I have issues with the discussion of some of the stuff that is discussed but I will happily fight to maintain the status quo because once you start censoring yourself you might as well shove a pound of AP down your pants and take up base jumping.

wrath should not be focused on K3wls or the DEA. it should be focused on that which empowers both - ignorance. science madness is so seductive because it is one of the true bastions of free speach and free knowledge. fuck ignorance, go SM. take a gander at member online some time and look at how many guests are constantly reading it. I think the lines drawn by the admins are perfectly reasonable, education is endorsed stupid is flamed.
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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 21:11


Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
We already chase off the people asking for spoonfeeding and "recipes" for common black market drugs.
Not to mention that Science Madness performs a valuable public service. By attracting the undesirable element we provide a focal point for the DEA to collect IP addresses of those that need attention. You did know that the government scoops up all the internet traffic and filters out the nuggets of information that serves its purposes, didn't you?

https://www.eff.org/issues/nsa-spying


not to mention swedish authorities after our darling Xanax went out of his way to get arrested... and likely many other countries. just keep your nose clean and your eyes open.
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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 22:01


I think making pharmacologically active substances as a hobby to ingest, smoke, or inject into ones body is a terrible idea. But despite having difficulty understanding why people do this, I have come to develop a degree of respect for some of them who truely have an interest in chemistry. I have very ambiguous feelings about "The Hive" and Rhodium's Archives. On the one hand, I strongly object to the end purpose, but on the other hand, one has to appreciate the improvised organic chemistry.

Perhaps learning about other peoples views can help us widen our own understandings, and be just a little more open-minded about things we might otherwise not have given any positive consideration to.

[Edited on 5-1-2012 by AndersHoveland]
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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 22:03


Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
We already chase off the people asking for spoonfeeding and "recipes" for common black market drugs.
Not to mention that Science Madness performs a valuable public service. By attracting the undesirable element we provide a focal point for the DEA to collect IP addresses of those that need attention. You did know that the government scoops up all the internet traffic and filters out the nuggets of information that serves its purposes, didn't you?

https://www.eff.org/issues/nsa-spying


The internet traffic dragnet is the reason that this site is also accessible via https. Of course, I don't know how many people would know enough about the internet to choose the secure protocol but not know enough to find common drug information via search engine instead of forum questions.




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[*] posted on 5-1-2012 at 00:20


Quote: Originally posted by White Yeti  
We like to blame the DEA or the hardware stores, but ultimately it's the troublemakers that deprive home scientists of chemicals they use for legitimate experimentation. After all, it's because of cooks and k3wls that we have to jump through hoops to obtain the simplest of chemicals.

Actually, ultimately it's because of obedient people like YOU. You can't really fault the DEA - it's a cancerous institution that does everything to stay in power. Kind of a state in a state and a huge shame for a constitutional democracy. And there will always be irresponsible people hurting themselves. But people like YOU who are OK with installing a nanny/police state are the root of the problem. You get what you deserve.

Quote:
The internet traffic dragnet is the reason that this site is also accessible via https.

Of course https doesn't help against time based traffic analysis. But this should not be the topic of this thread. In any case, the good cooks will prevail. :)
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[*] posted on 5-1-2012 at 02:34


Quote: Originally posted by turd  
Of course https doesn't help against time based traffic analysis


Time to go darknet :D? I've played a bit inside of TOR and i2p, I'd say moving there would REALLY filter people out :P

Just kidding of course. Like you said, not the topic of the thread.

We won't be able to stop cooks by being more strict. But the point isn't always to stop cooks, but also to not bring that kind of attention to SM. We don't really wanna be known as a drug/bomb forum. I think our current method of handling things is a good balance of discouraging kewls and druggies while not censoring our conversations.

I also have to say I agree with turd that we should not put up with the DEA in the first place, as the U.S. is really slipping in the democracy/freedom department.




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[*] posted on 5-1-2012 at 02:42


WTF! How can an 18 post thread just pop up like this, overnight?
I had to check the opener for the date, thinking it was a continuing old thread.
Oh yeah, fuck the DEA and fuck prohibition!
And that's something that can't be said often enough!

P
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[*] posted on 5-1-2012 at 05:00


As many have mentioned, the mods on SciMad are doing an excellent job. I would have less patience probably, but that's just me. I always enjoy to go in the detritus folder to see the latest batch of deranged "scientists" in there! LOL :D

Most impontantly, weeding out the obvious twits, who are usually quite easy to spot, is a priority. It's also a question of attitude. There is a level of diplomacy and protocol that must be respected and some hot-headed nitwits with a pyrophoric personality and a post count of 2 or 3 tend to ignite and get confrontational at the slightest bit of criticism. Sorry but no one here needs to put up with that crap.

Patience with the young ones in need of guidance, many here might have had a first few akward posts before they got a hang of things 'round here. We need not adapt to anyone, they have to adapt to our community! Now please don't take this comment out of contect, I simply mean by this that a "good" new member will feel it's way around and get to know how people tick around here and use the search engine before posting.

We all remember this "PHDchemist" who was either an excellent and crafted troll, or a dangerously disturbed individual, that's the kind of people that I direct most of my wrath at. They waste our time, they attract unneeded attention to this forum and they have no concept of protocol or respect. People who get into trouble right after their very few posts could be put in a "probation area" where their subsequent posts need to be approved by mods. That would quickly weed out the drivel, but sadly, would probably mean more work for the already busy mods...

My dad always said be polite, be nice to people, have a good heart and you can accomplish anything. That should be the motto for new members here at SciMad.

Robert




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[*] posted on 5-1-2012 at 06:42


Quote:
Most impontantly, weeding out the obvious twits, who are usually quite easy to spot, is a priority.

Yes, but problems easily arise when someone, unfamiliar with English, makes what appears to be a daft post.
They may then misunderstand the responses to the post, get upset, and start shooting from the hip, creating a spiral of negative feedback!
The thread is then detritused, or worse, the poster is banned . . .
But, of course, the patience we show them depends on the particular mood we're in at the time.
I remember (vaguely now) the intolerance and stupidity of Rogue Science!
I was banned indefinitely on my first post - no reason given!

[edit] Quite how Mega deduced I was a pretentious prick from two short sentences will ever remain a mystery?

P



[Edited on 5-1-2012 by Pulverulescent]
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[*] posted on 5-1-2012 at 06:51


I haven't seen anyone with poor english get lambasted here, they tend to get helped. most of the non-english speakers write with better grammer then some of the newer english speakers...
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[*] posted on 5-1-2012 at 10:22


Personally, I'd rather see a crackdown on a certain member (you know who I mean) who constantly posts wildly inaccurate information and reaction schemes he seems to have pulled directly out of his ass.



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[*] posted on 5-1-2012 at 10:48


Ah! But how severe a crackdown, that is the question?

P
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