plante1999
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Novel compounds ideas , the thread
Edit: With the commentary of Ander I decided to dedicate this thread to novel compounds ideas, not in the objective to make energetics compounds, but
simply for general novel compounds ideas.
I thinked to something today, If I mix Tcca (Trichloroisocyanuric acid,C3Cl3N3O3) with silver chlorate (AgClO3) in a water solution (making AgCl)
would it make something similar to this (I'm not very good in organic chemistry):
Thanks!!
[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]
[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]
I never asked for this.
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AndersHoveland
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I am a hypocrite for telling you this, but I think there should be a special thread in the Energetics section devoted to whacky, half-baked ideas. We
all [well, most of us] like hearing members theoretical proposals for new compounds, but no need for a new thread for each idea.
I am fairly sure your compound could not be made. It would be too oxidizing and unstable. A chlorate group cannot just be stuck onto a nitrogen atom,
sorry!
Even if your compound did exist (which it would not), it would be virtually touch sensitive. Read about ethyl perchlorate. Your compound would be even
more sensitive, because chlorate is more sensitive than perchlorate, and you are putting it on an acidic/electron-withdrawing structure to begin with.
I am not exactly sure what the reaction would be. If silver chlorate does not oxidize the TCCA, then it is quite possible some of the silver ions
would get oxidized to Ag(I,III) oxide.
You can see the sixteenth post down, if you want, to get an idea about the specifics of these type of chemistry:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14490
| Quote: |
If nitrate of silver is added to cyanurate of potassa, a white precipitate is obtained, which consists of 1 atom of cyanuric acid combined with 2 of
oxide of silver and 1 water
"Selected Primers", William Thomas Brande, (1867)
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The TCCA, if it reacts, is probably going to hydrolyse into cyanuric acid and hypochlorous acid in solution.
Cyanuric acid can be oxidized to CO2 and N2 by excess hypochlorite. "Oxidation of Cyanuric Acid with Hypochlorite", John A. Wojtowicz
Also your compound would be considered an acid anhydride of chloric acid and cyanuric acid, so it would probably hydrolyse in water.
So I have done some decent research and thinking. I think this post is the most consideration your idea is going to get.
[Edited on 22-2-2012 by AndersHoveland]
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plante1999
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I edited the title and aded a new part in the text.
Well I know (if it exist) it would be realy oxidizing and probably unstable, but it was just an idea for an novel compound... Probably I should try to
think to a novel titanium compound, I am be better in titanium chemistry than organic chemistry...
[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]
I never asked for this.
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AndersHoveland
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I would not say you are "bad" at chemistry. It is just that these sorts of things are actually very complex. Keep up the creativity!
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plante1999
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In fact, I can find a way to synthesis almost all normal inorganic compound exemple: Thiosulfate , Chloride.... Without use of any documentation, For
exemple if you say me to make CuCl I would be able without any help or If you say me to make Tetramine copper II sulfate from copper metal i will aslo
be able. But I am not able to do organic chem without help/documentation. I think I made some interressing Titanium compound that I documented here on
SM , I don't realy like organic chemistry but it seam that if I want to find a new compound it would be alot easier in Organic chemistry.
[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]
I never asked for this.
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kavu
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I have noticed a quickly passing, though common stage in almost all chemistry hobbyist: the urge to do stuff without literature. Chemistry is not
about being able to do stuff without literature, but rather using literature to help do clever new stuff that's not yet described. This does not
involve memorization but rather the ability to see and understand trends in reactivity, properties and so on. Understading and trying to rationalize
in both experimental and theoretical work is the key to success alongside with a bit of luck.
[Edited on 22-2-2012 by kavu]
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GreenD
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A sheet of nitrogen atoms - much like graphite!
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plante1999
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It would be nice to see pictures of the novel compounds ideas. It will help to understand the idea. In fact I did not say that I do not want to use
reference but simply that I do not need to check if it is a common inorganic synthesis , Generaly I want a reference for the synthesis I am planning.
[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]
[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]
[Edited on 22-2-2012 by plante1999]
I never asked for this.
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AndersHoveland
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Quote: Originally posted by kavu  | | I have noticed common stage in almost all chemistry hobbyist: the urge to do stuff without literature. Chemistry is not about being able to do stuff
without literature, |
The other extreme, of course, is would be the "armchair chemist" (me  ).
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14031
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14005
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=17012&...
[Edited on 23-2-2012 by AndersHoveland]
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Neil
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| Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland | | Quote: Originally posted by kavu | | I have noticed common stage in almost all chemistry hobbyist: the urge to do stuff without literature. Chemistry is not about being able to do stuff
without literature, |
The other extreme, of course, is would be the "armchair chemist" (me ).
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Never thought I'd see the day
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Panache
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Very sporting of you anders, i do believe you've come of age!
Too bloody right!
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AJKOER
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My speculation on mixing TCCA (Trichloroisocyanuric acid,C3Cl3N3O3) with silver chlorate (AgClO3) in a water solution is the hydrolysis of TCCA
forming HOCl and Cyanuric acid. With time/light some HCl will form either from the disproportionation of the HOCl or it decomposition:
3 HOCl --> 2 HCl + HClO3
2 HOCl --> 2 HCl + O2
However, the presence of Cyanuric acid is said to inhibit this last reaction (see http://www.tps.com.au/pools/chlorine.htm)
Any HCl formed will react with HOCl to form Chlorine:
HCl + HOCl --> H2O + Cl2 (g)
Also, the HCl may react with the AgClO3 as follows:
HCl + AgClO3 --> AgCl (s) + HClO3
The AgClO3, being a strong oxidizer, may also, per Andershoveland, decompose the Cyanuric acid into N2 and CO2 forming more AgCl and O2.
If my speculation is correct, with time you should see more of the white AgCl, the pH should decline, and perhaps some gas release (O2 , Cl2, CO2
and/or N2).
[Edited on 26-6-2012 by AJKOER]
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