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GreenD
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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 10:01
Education on Illicit substances


The only way I ever see a full legalization or decriminalization of [some] illicit substances is substantial education. The track record for LSD, psilocybin, DMT, mescaline, even extacy overdoses or attributed deaths in comparison to cars, alcohol, cigarettes, bicycles, etc is not even comparable. These substances (to name a few) are not harmful physically, and in the proper set & setting can be extremely helpful, healing, and bring great learning experiences.

The EU seems to be getting the picture, they recently (within the last year) have politically motivated real scientific research into some of these substances, but more so to inform the public on these new recreational substances from Clandestine labs - see "Bath Salts" or "Bromodragonfly" etc.

ReDNet is a relatively new group of scientists, from many fields, who discuss the problems and address key issues on emergent research chemicals.

The problem lays, of course, in the bias and stigma of relating a tryptamine alkaloid to an amphetamine or vice-versa, or the misinformation which ABOUNDS in early schooling years;
LSD causes brain lesions.
MDMA can cause your body to over heat and you "fry" your brain.
Psilocybin causes brain lesions and your brain to melt. (can't believe I've heard the latter).

Without real education on what these substances do, first time users (whatever their intentions may be) can fall into a misinformed abyss, which can be catastrophic on the developing brain. This is worse, in my opinion, than giving away guns without proper training. The end result can be a young adult who thinks he/she is brain damaged, without the physical causation. It can even lead to suicides.

These unfortunate events can easily be circumvented by proper education, understanding, and wisdom. A person who is fully educated on the effects of LSD is much more likely to be content with the experience than one who is told before hand that they might go crazy and never "come back". The second situation is a self-fulfilling prophecy which has no bearing in reality until it is presented.

To explain neurotransmitters, what a "trip" is (even subjectively), and the implications there after need to be stressed continuously. It is well known that abstinence teaching can cause an uprising in sexual behavior. It should be well understood that the same applies to the illicit drug world. Curiousity is only to pe amplified when the door becomes locked.

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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 10:36


Your right these claims are absurd, but not somewhat unwarranted (except the brain melting ones, and the frying). First MDMA is not harmless, physically or psychologically--although its not that bad. The brain damaged supposedly caused by MDMA only occurs at higher doses, and tends not to be a cumulative effect. I read a study recently that suggests MDMA users are slightly more prone to depression, but only very slightly, and that the effect does not seem to be dose dependent nor cumulative. People with predispositions for psycosis can be triggered by tramatic events such as a bad trip. The flashbacks and 'perma-trip' effects appear to be purp psychological. I think people need to know the real dangers and real benefits, or else they're not going to believe either.

I have heard that you trip on shrooms because your brain bleeds on your spinal cord--how absurd.

[Edited on 2-27-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]

[Edited on 2-27-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]




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GreenD
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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 10:52


Exactly - you cannot demonize or idealize these substances. They are very important and potent tools that can be used, and just as with every complicated tool, there are detrimental and constructive ways of using them.

Dispelling this outrageous claims of serious damage, serious psychosis and serious schizophrenia need to be addressed.

It is debateable whether genetic factors predispose users to schizophrenia, whether those with psychological disorders are more prone to use (abuse) or whether these substances are the root cause. Probably a complicated combination of all three.

The mind can become so emotional, analytical, and outright gullable on these substances that nearly every event in one's life can contribute to the experience.

I once watched a man squirm on the ground (not unhappily, mind you) while completely intoxicated on LSD. He proclaimed to me (While still reaching for imaginary objects) that his brain was getting huge lesions and that was why he was tripping. I told him that was an outright false claim, but he preferred his explanation over a neurological one. I couldn't understand it.
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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 10:59


That is strange... Psycadelics while valuable and relatively safe tools, can be dangerous in the wrong hands. In my experience recreational use of LSD goes horribly wrong, while enthogenic use very rarely goes wrong atall. Albert Hoffman and the Beatles felt the exact same way. It was all part of the hippie fad, people thought they were taking these drugs for fun and wanted to be kewl like them; but of course they were not.



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GreenD
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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 11:55


The revelations can be very confronting. . . If one is told, and predisposed to the idea of insanity, they will believe that what they are seeing is not in fact an extension of their reality, or a different perspective, but more unfortunately they will believe that they are going insane.

That is a very uncomfortable feeling, and without proper education and guidance, finding your way out of that cyclical reasoning is very difficult, and the further one is subjected to it, the harder it is to see any kind of truth (anywhere; "what is real?")

In a controlled, experienced, and guided environment, it is very difficult to be thrown into a negative experience. Hence, people pay thousands of dollars to go see Shamans in their villages, or go to religious institutions which hold the right to entheogenic ceremony, or simply ask an experienced friend to "trip - sit".

When one buys some LSD out of curiousity and takes it at a rave, the ignorance as to what is truly happening, and about to happen... well. There are plenty of reports of that. Of course, to my surprise, there is probably an equal amount of k3wls that enjoy it.

[Edited on 27-2-2012 by GreenD]
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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 12:02


I've said it before (though maybe not on this forum), let people do what they want with their own bodies and mind. As long as one minds it's own business and dosen't hurt anyone in the process (of procuring or using drugs) let people do what they want, the explorers of drugs tend to do it regardless of what the law dictates anyways.

Portugal has done some revolutionary things about its stand on the subject, I'm sure anyone that cares would/could read up on it.
In Norway we even have our capitol streets lined with heroin/meth/amphetamine junkies, left to do their business without the police interfering at all (not a good thing IMO though).


But if the freedom to use drugs are to be realized alot needs to be figured out, like who will supply, will the government monpolize (like alcohol in Norway), rationing and so on. Additionally who would pay for the people who will be damaged and unable to support themselves after drug induced damages (in Norway everone pays for the support of the sick/unable, self induced or not) ... Some will "multiplex" the different legalized drugs (and certainly with still illegal drugs) and potentially get damaged.


There are as you say the needs for education beforehand but also genuine reseach (not fear mongering conclusions which mostly exists today) to establish the potential effects, be them bad or "enlightening" for the different substances.

But in the end it boils down to the amount of freedom one is "supposed" to have, as I am certain that there will be less violence, less drug induced damages, less crime and so on if certain drugs were legalized.



And why restrict our fourth primal drive: Animals on Psychedelics: Survival of the Trippiest





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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 13:22


Cool article, it got me through Spanish class--bookmarked for future reference



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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 19:53


none of these arguements really matter when you consider the real motivations behind drug prohibition.
it's to keep costs high, be able to seize assets without due process, incarcerate and enslave people to work for 17 cents an hour.
the CIA has been bringing in drugs for decades.
Recently, after Pat tilman was fragged by "friendly fire" because he was writting home about protecting poppy fields and heroin shipments, the armed forces went public and announced on CNN they were protecting the poppy and bringing it to you, here is the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXTZKlnL0U0&feature=relat...
So in summary they grow the opium, they ship it to you, and they jail you for using it to make you work for 17 cents an hour making you guessed it, military hardware.




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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 21:56


The right to religious freedom could bring about legalization much faster than fighting outdated/fabricated science and education with new science and education. Supreme court already ruled in favor of DMT. Proving medical benefit will require much more effort and time than proving sacramental utility. They are not so different anyway...




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http://citizenworks.org/corp/dg/s2r1.pdf
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GreenD
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[*] posted on 28-2-2012 at 07:50


Jon, you remind me of someone! Thats all fine and dandy, but opium isn't what I'm talking about. There ain't too much to tell about opiates.

You take them, you feel good, you want to take them again. Everyone knows they damage - there is purely an addiction problem there which is out of the realm of purely educational help.

McKenna had a good analogy here;
"I met a guy once and had asked what his favorite substance was. He said DMT - 'that stuff is my favorite stuff'. I asked him when he had last taken it. '1973' This encounter was last year (1997). I see no danger of abuse in this molecule"

The war on DRUGS (cocaine, opiates, and marijuana) -all plant derived mind you - are politically and economically fueled - you are perfectly correct. And I'm sure there are plenty of dark secrets in America's closet regarding these. But LSD, DMT, Mescaline, and the newer MDx and now NBo's are something that no dumb cartels can be pushing with the intensity and sheer volume that the prior group can be manufactured in. Therefore, the government isn't going to get involved in their direct manufacture in the way you're describing.

Cocaine, MJ, and opium are money banks. These other ones are not. There is just not enough volume for an entire government to get involved in.

And for anyone in the future, spare me the "they want to keep us stupid" I think that is an easy, but ignorant view of the situation.

[Edited on 28-2-2012 by GreenD]
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[*] posted on 28-2-2012 at 07:59


Easy and ignorant--but it may have some legitimate realities hidden within. When I think about the 'War on Drugs', I think of 1984 by George Orwell--ever read it? Every year I see us one year closer to the year 1984 ;)



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[*] posted on 29-2-2012 at 09:02


"Easy and ignorant, legitimate realities"
I think this is exactly the point. I think that it is very easy to see it as a purposeful exploitation/surpression of the people, but I highly doubt that there is some evil cult running washington that gets together and they all scream "We need to surpress the masses! Don't let them take drugs, cause they make everyone super smart to our planzsz!"

Except, well - this one is pretty much devilish, and right in plain sight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyjnEm8DZkI


1984 - no - I almost watched the movie last night, is the film any good?

I instead watched . . . wow I don't remember. Where is my memory! Oh yes I watched a film on Hugo Chavez. Was less about Hugo Chavez and more about the bias and stigma presented in American (and south american) media.

"I know the american news outlets say horrible things about me. I'd be more worried if they spoke good things"
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[*] posted on 29-2-2012 at 11:48


Its simple GreenD its a religous thing.

Jesus made water into wine so its pritty hard for the governments to argue against alcohol.

The rest is just escaping from reality and not owning up to your own short commings in life.

So a heap of people armed with a damb book that time and time again is proven false chase capture
and charge people with the beliefe that they are doing the right thing.

They are not to blame they have a book you see.

Then once charged you go to a place were they sware on a book that has been proven false multiple times
to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

They then continue to lie there fucking arses off till they have made the room believe that you wished to
escape your responsibilities as a human and wish to subvert the rest of the world to do the same.

Then you go to Narcotics Anonymous and find out that apparently you need to be a drug user to learn about
"spirtuality"

ie: giving into god that you are unable to control your addictions and that he and only he can take them from you.

And this group was ment to be run by other drug users.

If we keep turning on our selves like that no wonder there fucking winning.

Still they have all the cannons and in reality were just fodder.

I think we play till we can play no more then hope that the next generation sees the truth in things
and doesnt rely on a book that contradicts itself time and time again.

I read in the paper today that they are trying to take the christian sylubis out of public schools were I live.
They wish to teach more than one religion as they think this harms our children.

There is still hope for the future :)

You will also notice might I add that alcohol is illegal in fully
muslim countries.

Jesus did no such thing for them so they cant even escape
there realities with a beer.

Fucking hippocrites does my head in it does.

lets burn some more coal I say hell after all is a place on earth.


[Edited on 29-2-2012 by Ephoton]




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[*] posted on 29-2-2012 at 15:09


I've never seen the movie, but Ive heard its a piece of shit--and that it doesn't follow to original plot well, nor the details.



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[*] posted on 29-2-2012 at 15:17


Hehe, it is really amazing that all the shortcomings of the human race can be linked to religion...



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[*] posted on 29-2-2012 at 15:27


1984, great book. Read it. The movie is kinda lame...



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[*] posted on 29-2-2012 at 15:41


1984 is one of my favorites; I feel like the movie would be enjoyable, but would ruin the book--not that I've seen it.



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[*] posted on 2-3-2012 at 04:13


All I read here between the lines is a bunch of dopeheads that would like to fuckup their brains with no legal risks.
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[*] posted on 2-3-2012 at 04:39


Quote: Originally posted by a_bab  
All I read here between the lines is a bunch of dopeheads that would like to fuckup their brains with no legal risks.


All I read between the lines here is a person content with being ruled and raped with no will of its own...

Sorry for that but you had it coming...

What I or anyone else chose to do to their brains or body is of no ones business, and that most if not all drug legislations and laws are imposed based upon economical reasons are absolutly not a reason at all to restrict anything..




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[*] posted on 2-3-2012 at 06:17


The official line being ─ don't do drugs!
OK, drugs mightn't fuck you up but the jail-time we'll give you will!




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[*] posted on 2-3-2012 at 09:47


Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent  
The official line being ─ don't do drugs!
OK, drugs mightn't fuck you up but the jail-time we'll give you will!


A miserable truth. Especially with psychedelics, to my knowledge all the common ones are scheduled I, i.e. felony possession. :(

Quote: Originally posted by a_bab  
All I read here between the lines is a bunch of dopeheads that would like to fuckup their brains with no legal risks.


I can see your not well educated. Besides the medical facts that there is no reason to believe psychedelics have no lasting physical impact, few people who take psychedelics regularly (if you can call it that) are doing it to get a 'buzz'. It's not about getting high, or having fun, or forgetting your reality. On the contrary, psychedelics are all about facing reality in a new light, a brighter light. Visual hallucinations of any kind are not random or spontaneous, they are expressions of ones self. This is so true that it is not unheard of to take large amounts of LSD and achieve no effect, while the same person may later take a very small amount and get to Lv 5 (total loss of visual reality). 'Tripping' is to dreaming as dihydrogen monoxide is to water.

[Edited on 3-2-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]




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[*] posted on 2-3-2012 at 10:09


"bunch of dope heads that would like to fuckup their brains"

Well that right there just goes to show how much you really know, how much research you've actually done, and how brainwashed you are. But there will always be one, and nothing can ever be said to change these people's minds!

I wonder if you ever drink alcohol or use prescription medication? And if you say you don't, there is still the bulk of Americans and humans in all other countries that do, and everyone knows how fucking harmful that disgusting solvent is, and all the damage from over-prescribed medications.
I cannot believe that on a science forum we still have people making stupid comments like that, if you gathered data and looked at this issue without a bias it's easy to compare one against the other and see how blind you are.

A_bab is part of the reason this thread was created.

And again it comes back to why you care so much what people would like to do to their consciousness.



[Edited on 2-3-2012 by Magic Muzzlet]
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[*] posted on 2-3-2012 at 10:14


I wonder if he will respond...



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[*] posted on 5-3-2012 at 00:15


Well, nobody knows for sure what education I have got and I do drink alcohol sometimes. Coincidentally I have a chronic disease that needs meds with nasty side effects. Some of my friends enjoy a good joint occasionally and I can see in some (very few) others the weed side effects: memory loss, lack of attention, inability to finish a project. And I'm talking just weed here. Well, it is clearly visible I hate mind altering drugs.

All of you that are so keen to fuck up your brains do it - but there are risks beyond the legal trouble. It's your life after all.

LSD does turn you into a vegetable, eventually. Read some facts. Oh, let me guess: all those papers and studies are actually government crap, meant to brainwash an already retarded nation.

The facts are like this: you are the child willing to play with the hot oven, while the government is above you, ready to slap your hand.
Even in Netherlands some people believe that what looks like a mild drug, it also causes loss of ability to socialize, paranoia and other related issues, all in teenagers. Government want us to work efficiently, rather then be stoned. Government does not want us to turn into zombies due to meth abuse, and it surely does now want to deal with the heart attacks caused by cocaine, paranoia followed by gory events caused by MDA as discussed before etc.

The recent explosion of "bath salts" and the aftermath only shows the disgusting fact that some are able to do whatever it takes to perceive the things differently, even with the cost of life.

This is a science forum indeed, but knowing some organic chemistry and being able to cook your next dream is not science at all. It surely can give you a feeling of being superior, smarter then the average Joe who has now idea about the magic behind the crap he pays lots of money for, but it's not science at all. It's just some backyard, usually dangerous chemistry.

Let me explain myself: I like chemistry just like anyone here. I hate that the mere possession of some chems could get you in trouble because I'm not like the retards who commit suicide with toxic or corrosive chems. I also hate all of the restrictions and the fact that the laws are getting tighter and tighter. I wish I lived 100 years ago, when there was no restriction to anything and people were probably happier than now.

Just think like this about me: I'm a guy who hates drugs period. And the government too. That doesn't makes me neither stupid nor brainwashed. It's a preference thing really. You with your dopes are the ones who made MOST of the interesting chems unavailable to the regular home chemist.

And BTW, I was right about all of you. Let me rephrase this thread: "I enjoy being a bee; too bad it's so risky"


[Edited on 5-3-2012 by a_bab]
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[*] posted on 5-3-2012 at 06:08


I dont know if this is bait or not but .....

if you want to give ya sources away (this may not be you a_bab) what do you expect.

not all people who make things that are active give them to teenagers.

the problem is not the compounds but rather who is able to aquire
the chemicals and the compounds them selves.

a hobby is not a comercial enterprise this is were things get mixed up I think.

give easy to follow instructions rather than the science behind reactions and give the sources for OTC chemicals away and
we have the problem you describe.

I dont hate active compounds but I do agree I hate people hurting
them selves and others wial thinking there better than other people.

better it be kept to those who actualy seek it for them selves than
open the doors to mass production and chemical lock down via
releasing step by step instruction with open source policies.

not all of us wish teenagers to get into drugs they have neither
understood nore earned the right to take.

not all of us are fried by there own creations.

chemistry is a whole and as such it requires a moral education to
go with it.

we could learn a lot from our russian brothers and sisters as they
are able to keep this view of morality and responsiblity very easily
with a few rules.

no sources unsubstuted amphets or opiods.

anyone making compounds in excess of personal hobby levels banned.

it is impossible to seperate any form of chemistry from the other
as they all inter relate.

to protect one type of chemistry is to protect the other.

morals and following a working pidagram I beleive are the ways
to ending this problem of our knowllage being missused and the
governments being upset with the online chemistry movement.

it was not the bee's who started and continued the bath salt
phenomenia it was cheap arse chemical companies in the top
east poor block of europe.

AMT 5MeoDMT methylone ect were never the aim of bee's for
mass production.

dont blame failed economies on hobbiest psychonautes please
it does not help any hobbiest.

I can still respect though your dislike too drugs they have caused
a lot of trouble due to under educated people using them and
the wrong drugs being available to these people.

why should some one who can make something for them selves
not be allowed to do this.

It is no different than any other kind of personal freedom.
It is when the compounds start to gain a monetery value that
the problem occures if you ask me.

Still we both talk in ideals and fantasies, neither one of us
will get what we wish so I think it is only possible to work
together as fellow home chemists and try and protect the
whole of chemistry from sanction and be more responsible
with what we let out into the open internet.

thanx for the heads up hissingnoise.

still with a statement like that you should not be happy
with what they make you do.

they may not fuck you up but we will is only a reflection of
my statement on religon. after all the people who follow the
"truth" book are always right :(

GreenD some people dont come back
from LSD or go crazy and do things that they would
never do otherwise this one is not a myth.

I dont think that making illicit compounds is the way for
a lot of us.

But I think the battle to be able to synthesis something at home
is the same as the battle for the person doing the synthesis
being able to do what the wish with it so long as it doesnt
hurt others or our environment.




[Edited on 5-3-2012 by Ephoton]




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