killswitch
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Nitrocaffeine
Caffeine (IUPAC name 1,3,7-trimethyl-1H-purine-2,6(3H,7H)-dione 3,7-dihydro-1,3,7-trimethyl-1H-purine-2,6-dione) contains carbonyl groups and
heterocyclic rings containing nitrogen.
Now, my knowledge of chemistry is rather deficient in these areas and you have better things to do with your time than comprehensibly educate me for
free. But would it be possible to replace the methyl groups on this molecule with NO2 groups and/or introduce a nitro group onto the unsaturated
nitrogen at the 5 position? It strikes me that such a compound would have very little to no oxygen deficiency, along with appreciable density. I'm not
sure how stable it would be with respect to RDX, given the presence of carbonyl groups. Perhaps the addition of a hydrogen to the nitrogen at position
5 would improve stability if such is the case?
What kind of reaction mechanism would produce this product?
And what properties would it exhibit?
It appears quite similar to Keto-RDX, but has no hydrogen, which would increase the temperature of the exploding gases.
[Edited on 29-2-2012 by killswitch]
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Ral123
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And these C=O bonds, peroxide on each one  Soz for not knowing what I'm talking
about
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Adas
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LOL, I also got this idea
Rest In Pieces!
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quicksilver
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Simply because a chemical can appear similar in notation does not make it a worthy candidate for becoming energetic.
A great learning tool is a program called "Chem-Lab" (you can draw all sorts of things that appear similar yet are not possible to make into an
energetic from a realistic standpoint). You will find many superficially similar appearing precursors that cannot be made energetic. It's a great
program becasue it will show what cannot (in present-day common organic chemistry lab) be synthesized and often will provide a note as to why.
Somethings may appear to workout in theory but the route to the end synthesis would be so complex that it is not practical.
Many decades ago people had attempted to work with nitric esters and attempted to "nitrate" (with mixed acids or HNO3 alone) everything from sucrose
to animal shit. There is some incredible history in the development of explosives. Nitric esters were perhaps the most wildly experimented with &
polyhydric solid alcohols were generally the most promising materials. Benzene-ring materials faced some complications (prior sulfonation, etc) yet
there were quite a few successes alone the way. Those included the nitro-phenyl salts. Cyclic Nitro Amines appeared to be quite limited yet not too
difficult to make cost effective. Peroxides are a poor choice due to environmental demands and limited candidates of low expense. Of the
plastic-groups,nitro-tetrizoles were eventually turned to are relativity cost effective. There are MUCH more effective learning tools than peroxides.
There are many places to download historic materials. Many years ago (decades) one of the standards in organic chemistry classrooms was the small-lab
synthesis of DNT/TNT. My suggestion is move away from peroxides or get some in-depth literature on proper synthesis of the dimer and trimer and
additionally why they can really only go so far.
If you are looking for a simple synthesis, consider styphnic & picric acid. They provide primaries from heavy metal salts and the basic synthesis
is simple as a peroxide. It has a great deal to learn from. Look to materials that were discovered and worked with in the 19th century as many have
simple labs that can be imitated as well as having a great deal of background information readily available.
[Edited on 1-3-2012 by quicksilver]
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Ral123
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I was able to get dark yellow insoluble product from toluene and mixed acids(the nitric was 60%). It burns with a lot of soot. Can I really have DNT?
It melts kinda easy I'm not sure if it has MNT in it. If I get phenol will I be able to get good quality picric acid, storage stable without
distillation and recrystalisation?
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Bot0nist
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It's easy to get to DNT this way. You need to reflux your DNT in >95% HNO<sub>3</sub> now, IIRC. Lots of patents and good lab write-ups
on this. Oh, and ASA is a great substrate for picric. Why do you need phenol, aspirin is everywhere...
[Edited on 1-3-2012 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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Ral123
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yes I'm sure I can get insoluble product with fuming nitric acid too. I even suspect it will contain some TNT...But I'm sceptical that it'll be pure
and stable.
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AirCowPeaCock
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Whats the mp? Be sure to wash your product thoroughly before heating it, and heat it gently, blah blah blah...
[Edited on 3-1-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]
BOLD
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Bot0nist
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Just follow the published procedure! No need to reinvent the wheel...
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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Ral123
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I need dilute mixed acids to get nitrotoluene so I'm supposed to dilute with water? No way. The nitrotoluene is then distilled to be separated, there
was some unwanted isomer too witch was separated by exploiting solubility. And same thing for me with the dinitro... I don't have distillation
equipment, methanol is the only solvent I have, my termometer is broken long time ago and basically I'm on a budget. I'm just looking for reliable
"fuel" component for ammonium dynamite. I'm considering pure urea (somewhat safer the good old AP )
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Bot0nist
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Got to get your self a good thermometer to do any safe work with energetics I imagine.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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quicksilver
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TNT has a mp of 80 C. ... HOWEVER, there is a reason melting point machines have a very tiny (milligram level) tray for samples.
There had been a great many discussions regarding what many called a "One Pot Synthesis" of TNT. The refreshing of mixed acids COULD accomplish a
tri-nitration but it generally demands two applications of acids (second being fresh acids), etc. I have some pictures in the forum of crystals grown
over an inch in length (needles): if you do a SEARCH you may find them. "TNT oils" presented a toxicity issue even after the pouring of shells in WWII
on a Flight Deck. Some people show a remarkable sensitivity to the material.
During the 1940's a large collection of fireworks manufacturers were working for the War Dept. and several distinctive methods of handling were noted.
"Dust" was a serious problem. The final tri-nitrated product most often composes needle crystals. Rhomboids are often seen in lower nitrations.
80 C is about 176 F, so that pretty darn low. If your thermometer is a Fahrenheit type and will achieve 200 degrees you may be able to use a "boiling
water within water" mechanism to set up a test.
Few people have reported a "snap" when TNT was tested hammer and anvil; but it's unlikely unless you exceed safety limits & it's NOT recommended.
Hammer and anvil tests really only work well for Picric acid to determine lower nitrations. NEVER expose TNT to alkali materials (especially strong
ones). It will sensitize the material to a serious extent. A final LIGHT H2SO4 wash (@ approx 40%) followed by repeated washings with neutral water
and a stabilizer is generally what is safe. However too much Dimethylamine will color change on even very clean material. not a deep blue but a green.
Yellow crude product can go to beige from washings & patent literature indicates that braking crystals will often clean out residual acids. but
the wash level needs to be substantial and clean. Sodium SULFITE is often used in washings at a low % level.
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Ral123
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So what product do I get if I mix fuming nitric/sulfiric 1:2 and began to add toluene. Keep the temp well below 100 degrees. Give the process good
amount of time, then poor all in cold water, filter crystals and wash. Will I have stable toluene nitration products. So if I store for like 5 years
there wont be NO2 all over the place and half of the product missing.
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Bot0nist
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DNT mostly I bet. Then nitrate again with fresh, concentrated acid.
[Edited on 1-3-2012 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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