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neptunium
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[*] posted on 7-3-2012 at 18:20
dark matter?


i am not sure this subject belongs on a chemistry forum but i`ll try anyway.

According to the latest research and measurements, the universe seems to be made of more than 25% of a substance with weird property called dark matter.

everybody have seen the periodic table but the simple idea of a matter made of something outside of the periodic table simply blows me away!

does anyone on here has any thoughtson what the stuff might be made of? neutrons aglomerated ? quarks soup? or something completely different?
and how does this material would behave in your hand? in the lab? with regular known matter?

do I need to get laid or do i have a point here?




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[*] posted on 7-3-2012 at 18:25


I seriously think chemistry with "dark matter" whatever it is is going to be...interesting, if its feasible at all. Maybe in 50 years "dark matter" technology will be to elemental chemistry as silicon semiconductors are to vacuum tubes now.



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[*] posted on 7-3-2012 at 18:46


So far, it is known that dark matter is not clumped "somewhere, in the depths of space". It is all around us, but doesn't interact with "normal" matter except through gravity. We're immersed in it, so that's why universe behaves like it has more mass than, judging by the gravitational interactions, would be obvious from observing "normal" matter.
I'm using "" because dark matter and energy are responsible for 95% of the universe. We're the anomaly.

So I doubt dark matter will ever play any significant part in chemistry, just like neutrinos don't.

[Edited on 8-3-2012 by Endimion17]




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[*] posted on 7-3-2012 at 19:38


<strong>neptunium</strong>, there are plenty of good 'pop-sci' books on the subject of dark matter, dark energy, and cosmology in general. I recommend the following, if you're interested:

<strong>Quantum Physics for Poets</strong> by Leon M. Lederman & Christopher T. Hill
<strong>A Matter of Degrees</strong> by Gino Segré
<strong>Alpha & Omega</strong> by Charles Seife

In <strong>Alpha & Omega</strong> in particular, Seife does an excellent job covering the subject of 'what scientists knew' about dark matter ca. 2003. I also strongly recommend <strong>Sun in a Bottle</strong> by Seife, although it's subject is the history of fusion, it's a very entertaining read.

You could at least put a little effort into learning&mdash;even from a non-theoretical quantum physicist/cosmologist perspective&mdash;a little of what's actually known about dark matter. In short, please don't pull wild speculation and theories out of your ass. :P

<hr width="300" />
Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  
So I doubt dark matter will ever play any significant part in chemistry, just like neutrinos don't.

It's should not be understated how significant a role chemistry has played in the detection and study of neutrino behaviour, however. Fascinating subject.

[Edited on 7/9/13 by bfesser]




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neptunium
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[*] posted on 7-3-2012 at 21:24


Quote: Originally posted by bfesser  
You could at least put a little effort into learning&mdash;even from a non-theoretical quantum physicist/cosmologist perspective&mdash;a little of what's actually known about dark matter. In short, please don't pull wild speculation and theories out of your ass. :P



HA!!! ok, teach me about what i dont know and what i didnt understand budd...

[Edited on 8-3-2012 by neptunium]




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[*] posted on 7-3-2012 at 21:39


I already suggested some reading. Also, you should check out the Wikipedia article on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter" target="_blank">dark matter</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />, paying special attention to the distinction between baryonic and non-baryonic dark matter. Some baryonic dark matter consists of the familiar elements.

25%? Where in the hell did you get that number from? From what I can recall of what I've read, estimates have ranged from 75% to 83%.

[Edited on 7/9/13 by bfesser]




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neptunium
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[*] posted on 7-3-2012 at 21:46


are you thinking dark energy? because dark matter is nowhere near that value of 80% but currently estimated at 23% ..
a quick wiki search can verify that .

about 85% or so of the total matter is dark matter wich leaves about 15 % of normal observable matter .

the baryonic dark matter account for a small portion of the total dark matter .

where am i going wrong here?

again . dont take my word for it ...check it out yourself!


[Edited on 8-3-2012 by neptunium]

[Edited on 8-3-2012 by neptunium]

[Edited on 8-3-2012 by neptunium]




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[*] posted on 8-3-2012 at 08:52


You are (somewhat) correct. Your original post wasn't as clear, however. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

17% is normal observable luminous matter. There is still a portion of the 83% of dark matter which is composed of non-luminous <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryonic_matter#Baryonic_matter" target="_blank">baryonic matter</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />&mdash;the stuff we're familiar with. It's just trickier for astronomers and cosmologists to locate since it can't be seen directly. They have to rely on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens" target="_blank">gravitational lensing</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter#Observational_evidence" target="_blank">other phenomena</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> to infer it's existence. You are correct, though, this baryonic dark matter is only a small proportion of the total dark matter.

[Edited on 7/9/13 by bfesser]




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neptunium
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[*] posted on 8-3-2012 at 10:57


no problems Bfesser thats why we are here for.
talk and respectfully argue about science.

i find it fascinating to realise that we are not made of the majory of the stuff the universe is made of .





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[*] posted on 11-3-2012 at 00:48


I haven't watched all these Nova specials or checked these links
but this looks interesting, and in Part 1 will be described the OP's topic/question

The Fabric Of The Cosmos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg2r_y1tsyE Part 1 What Is Space

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkgcKmbsqp8 Part 2 The Illusion Of Time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkuTMoUvDMU Part 3 Quantum Leap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBf16YzWzew Part 4 Universe Or Multiverse

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[*] posted on 11-3-2012 at 18:24


I remember reading a physics book, "Parallel Worlds" (by Michio Kaku) quite a while ago. I may be wrong, but I believe it talked of an idea of other universes, or "3-branes", having gravity that essentially "pushes" down onto our universe as well, creating the illusion that there is invisible matter when it is really the gravity from these other membranes pushing down on our universe.

This is what I remember, if anyone can verify it as being wrong or right, please do so; otherwise, I think that this was the rough idea behind this theory explaining dark matter.
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neptunium
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[*] posted on 12-3-2012 at 05:07


there is in fact an idea going arround that outside our universe another universe is passing near by (in extras dimensions) and causing matter to be attracted to it giving us the impression of large amount of invisible and undetectable matter ,towards witch entire galaxy clusters are being pulled.

However dark matter is having an effect on each and every galaxy .we cant see it but we can measure it and detect it. it holds evry galaxy together and has been doing so for a long time. Without it the universe would have been a very differente place and we might not have existed.





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[*] posted on 29-3-2012 at 10:56


scientists are still theorizing about dark matter...
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[*] posted on 2-4-2012 at 04:44


If you think of it like chirality, it makes a S41t load of sense.



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[*] posted on 2-4-2012 at 09:23


what do you mean ? what does it has to do with dark matter and its composition?
please explain Niertap ...it doesnt make sense to me




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[*] posted on 2-4-2012 at 14:12


are clouds of "cold" neutrinos a candidate for dark matter?
What about extremely long wavelength radio waves? We could be surrounded in a very dense sea of this type of electromagnetic energy and it would be difficult to detect. This could even be an explanation for the "quatum vacuum" energy. What happens when the frequency of electromagnetic radiation is measured in years, or even millions of years? No antenna made by humans would be able to detect this, and the energy would have a way of pervading all matter, with little interaction. And because of the coherence effects, in may even be likely that whatever interaction there is would only be transient, much like light travelling through transparent dielectric medium.

[Edited on 2-4-2012 by AndersHoveland]
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[*] posted on 3-4-2012 at 03:32


We would detect such very low frequency radio waves. There would be strong nearly static electric fields and strong nearly static magnetic fields, with relations between them according to Maxwell's wave equations. The strength of these fields must be large in order to account for a reasonable amount of energy and hence these would not be unnoticed. In fact the presence of those fields would probably screw up all chemical and geological processes on earth and the fact that there isn't any such trouble I think is the best evidence of such fields not being present.

And so the dark energy remains a mystery.....




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[*] posted on 3-4-2012 at 05:52


On a slightly different tack, I've long been struck by the similarities between galaxies and weather systems.
If a cyclone (depression) is, as we know it is, a spinning area of low atmospheric pressure which causes the precipitation of water dissolved in the surrounding medium, is a galaxy a spinning area of low 'dark fluid' pressure which causes the precipitation of matter dissolved in the surrounding 'medium'?
And by the same analogy, are there anticyclones present in the 'dark fluid' of which space may be composed?
Could the 'eye' of a storm on earth be analogous to a black hole in space?
Whew!




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[*] posted on 3-4-2012 at 08:38
Phlogiston!


Phlogiston is the dark matter thats pretty obvious that or the ether which holds stuff together, a pity Moonmonster isn´t around anymore to answer us all these questions. Where did his webpage with the phlogiston synthesis only go? I suppose to this other crossing universe...
I bet he can tunnel between the multiverses like an electron high on quantum juice travels through the energy barrier like a hot wet knife through sodium metal...

Sorry. I am just jealous :(

/ORG
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[*] posted on 3-4-2012 at 09:52


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
We would detect such very low frequency radio waves. There would be strong nearly static electric fields and strong nearly static magnetic fields,

Good point about the magnetic field, but could it not still be possible that these photons would still not interact with matter? If the amplitude was very high, there might be coherence effects that prevent interaction, at least directly.

I think it is a mistake to just automatically take for granted that this does not exist just because it cannot be readily detected. This type of energy could form a fundamental part of the laws of physics, being essential to the actual concept of space-time. The quantum vacuum is believed to contain much more energy than matter. Where do you think those W bosons borrow their energy to cause the weak force? I just find the "uncertainty" explanation not very plausible.

The behavior of electromagnetic radiation may likely appear very different when it is ultra-long wavelength and of energies that dwarf regular matter by comparison. It is this energy that would dictate the behavior of matter, not the other way around like we are conventionally accustomed to observing.

[Edited on 3-4-2012 by AndersHoveland]
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[*] posted on 3-4-2012 at 22:44


The behavior of electromagnetic radiation is well known, VERY well known. We have the work of Maxwell, which describes electromagnetism very well over a range from static fields (0 Hz) to very high frequencies. What you suggest would mean that Maxwell's equations do not hold under very high energy density conditions, but even if this were true, then we would notice something from this. If at ever increasing energy density we still can notice something, then why would at a certain point this suddenly stop?



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[*] posted on 4-4-2012 at 09:08


Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent  
On a slightly different tack, I've long been struck by the similarities between galaxies and weather systems.
If a cyclone (depression) is, as we know it is, a spinning area of low atmospheric pressure which causes the precipitation of water dissolved in the surrounding medium, is a galaxy a spinning area of low 'dark fluid' pressure which causes the precipitation of matter dissolved in the surrounding 'medium'?
And by the same analogy, are there anticyclones present in the 'dark fluid' of which space may be composed?
Could the 'eye' of a storm on earth be analogous to a black hole in space?
Whew!


very interesting analogy! although it would sudgest that matter is always disolved in the surrouding empty space and since wee cant measure that even on a huge scale it might just be an interesting idea..

i would say this, dark matter seems to be arround all concentration of matter (galaxy) and do a very good job at keeping everything in sync and remain undetectable , a cyclone get bigger because the depression rotates and forces more water from the humide air to precipitate. galaxy rotate as well but even after billions of years the only way for them to get bigger is th approach and swalow anthor galaxy. they just dont do anything when isolated.




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[*] posted on 4-4-2012 at 10:21


Quote:
very interesting analogy! although it would sudgest that matter is always disolved in the surrouding empty space and since wee cant measure that even on a huge scale it might just be an interesting idea..

It's still tempting to play with the idea that 'dark fluid' might actually consist of matter in another (as yet invisible) form . . .
But the huge time-scales involved make hard speculation difficult.




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[*] posted on 6-4-2012 at 09:45


the universe is so big and light travel at a finite speed ,the huge time scale can be "seen" .when wee look further away in space, weee also look further back in time .
if there were anything funny in the vacuum density of space when looking far away, wee could in principal, see it.
that would be an interesting subject of research ! if i could use the Keck observatory or get a feww hours of observation with Hubble i would love to check that out!




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[*] posted on 6-4-2012 at 17:15


i remain confident that science will explain the dark matter mistery and dark energy enigma.
speculations run wild and the mind is free to wonder .....
but in the end science often turns out to be more strange than fiction.
Elusive matter has escaped us since the 60's and probably will for another 10 years (at least)

the beauty of science is that it is undispotable and the results often bring about more questions.

long behold the day i can hold dark matter in my hands and see anti matter in a magnetic field in the lab , but so was the day of early chemist and physicist about the quest for transuranians and exotic elements such as promethium.

we will get there ! if only i could live long enough to see it!




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