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The_Davster
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[*] posted on 8-3-2012 at 14:27
Hope this was nobody here....


http://toronto.openfile.ca/toronto/text/byron-sonne-thin-lin...


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Fertilizer, corned beef or bomb? Potassium nitrate contains multitudes. And it’s just one of the many chemicals found inside Byron Sonne’s house during a police search after the security consultant’s pre-G20 arrest in June 2010. After spending almost a year in pre-trial custody and sitting through a three-week hearing as to whether his Charter rights were violated during his arrest and detention, the 39-year-old’s criminal trial finally began this week. Sonne and his lawyers lost that one—on December 12, Superior Court Justice Nancy Spies ruled that although the search of Sonne’s home did violate his Charter rights, by excising the bad parts of the search warrants and amplifying the good, she could admit the evidence seized during the search into the trial proper. Sonne’s lawyers had also fought to have his interrogation by Detective Tam Bui kept out of the proceedings, but Spies decided that most of Sonne’s statements had been voluntary. She cut out some parts (mostly referring to how he used his credit cards) but largely let the interview stand. The star witness this week was Dr. Crawford John Anderson, the head of Military Engineering for Defence Research and Development Canada. Anderson spends much of his time looking into what types of improvised explosive devices are trending on the internet, and building them himself to see if they actually work. He was here to opine as to whether the chemicals found in Sonne’s house could have been combined into a bomb. No one disputes that Sonne had a lab in his basement, stocked with glassware and neatly labelled containers (see photos here). There was potassium permanganate, potassium nitrate, ammonium nitrate, iron oxide and zinc oxide. There was stearine, copper sulfate, urea, hydrogen peroxide and aluminum powder, as well as dextrin, sulfamic acid, hexachloroethane, charcoal, potassium silicate and sodium bicarbonate. Sonne had plastic bags full of wax shavings and PVC shavings, and a container of hexamine tablets next to his camp stove. There was acetone, methyl hydrate and hydrochloric acid in his garage. In his furnace room, he had an electrochemical setup where he seemed to be turning potassium chloride into potassium chlorate, a shiny white crystal that is, Anderson said, a well-known ingredient in improvised explosives like TATP (triacetone triperoxide) and HMTD (hexamethylene triperoxide diamlene). Most of these chemicals have multiple uses. Urea and ammonium nitrate are fertilizers, and police photographed stacks of seeds from Martha Stewart Living. “That’s the difficulty with a lot of this,” Anderson said. “It can be done with ordinary kitchen stuff.” Some have no explosive properties at all. Copper sulfate can be used to grow “beautiful blue crystals,” beakers of which were found during the search. Anderson said that none of the chemicals had been combined—what he saw were “precursors,” not a bomb. Still, the expert was sober, pointing out that there were enough precursors in the Forest Hill home to make eight to 10 kilos of explosives, enough to “blow apart the back of a bus.” “I haven’t seen any evidence that something explosive was made,” Anderson said. “But it’s my opinion that the materials there, the kit, not just the chemicals but the materials to put them together, I can’t see any reason other than to at some point make some sort of localized explosive.” The next day, defence lawyer Peter Copeland took Anderson through the chemical list again. Acetone is crucial to both TATP and HMTD, and Anderson agreed that he didn’t know whether the containers found in Sonne’s garage were full. But even one kilogram would be a significant explosion. The lawyer and bomb expert went through the step-by-step process of making each of the explosives up for discussion: TATP and HMTD, plus the less-powerful ANFO (which is a crude mixture of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil) and HDN (hexamine dinitrate). It would take about four hours to make 200 grams of TATP, which would then need to be dried. It would take about the same time to make 50 grams of HMTD, which would also need to be dried. Anderson agreed that Sonne had a limited amount of small glassware. Making the full London-bombing haul of explosives would take a very long time, if done by an amateur, by hand. Copeland had Anderson reiterate that none of these explosives were in the process of being made when police entered Sonne’s home three days before the G20 summit began. In lawyerly Latin, “mens rea” means “guilty mind.” In other words, intent—the goal of the accused is a factor, which is how murder becomes manslaughter, or vice versa. Sonne says his intent was to build model rockets, and to do so within the bounds of the law. He was a member of the Canadian Association of Rocketry, and says he suspended all his experiments when the president of the association told him he needed a license to mess with stuff like potassium chlorate. Copeland and Anderson went back and forth about whether bomb-precursor chemicals are also rocket propellants. The bag of wax shavings could be used to form chemicals into a solid rocket fuel, Anderson agreed, and the drill press in the garage could be used for the same purpose. He also said, over and over, that rockets aren’t his speciality. Near the end of December 15th's testimony, Copeland posed Anderson another question. “If someone were interested in testing the system, to see whether they could raise flags with the people in authority who regulates chemicals,” the lawyer said, “could that be one reason for acquiring some chemicals in that collection?” “It’s possible,” said Anderson. “I think it’s a bad idea.” The trial resumes March 19.





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neptunium
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[*] posted on 8-3-2012 at 14:57


sounds like overkill! i dont know what triggered the investigation and if Mr Sonne had any brush with the law in the past but it smells like fear and ignorance are driving this trial.
i dont remember talking to anyone on here interested in rocket fuel but i am not really interested in energetics.

mark my words. one day this web site will be shut down ..if Mr Sonne turns out to have been a SM subscriber you best beleive there will be follow ups and punishment.




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GreenD
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[*] posted on 8-3-2012 at 15:40


"June 2010" - if so then everyone on here is already tagged.:)



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neptunium
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[*] posted on 8-3-2012 at 15:46


you know what...probably!



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[*] posted on 8-3-2012 at 21:16


this chem stock seems TOTALLY innocuous to me... obviously just a tinker-er. come to think of it i have everything he had plus much more... and potassium chlorate to make AP?!?!?! did the experts get into the seized drug stash?
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[*] posted on 8-3-2012 at 21:38


The police know to prejudice your case from the start,
so they lay it on thick. Once these quotes are written
up by the Associated Press reporter and distributed
throughout the country to other news bureaus to then
regurgitate it verbatim , it becomes the defacto account
of the events as they occured.

The response to these media events is always choreographed
for maximum effect. The overblown theatrical reactions
serve to make the police response seem life saving and
validate the continued funding of special units that deal
with such ' dangerous ' incidents. " The arsenal of weapons
was big enough to blow up the entire block ".

Supposedly as I hear it, the police respond to a " silent alarm "
in the house. Mr Ringel opens the door and the police " smell "
a strong odor of what they characterize as marijuana. They
also view inside Ringel's home in " plain sight " what they
believe to be a handgun and two hand grenades. This may or
may not suffice as probable cause to violate Ringel's privacy
but it is a well known and honed tactic used to circumvent
judicial procedures such as obtaining a search warrant.
A warning to "sovereign citizens '.

Some quotes below from readers speaks to the concerns

" He also has lawsuits filed against him by none other than
Microsoft for software piracy. This man is dangerous."

" Hey, I live 5 doors down, most people are less concerned
with the explosives then they are the fact that he was
growing pot and not sharing…lol."

Read all the comments at the bottom of the articles here _

http://fivetowns.patch.com/articles/police-grenades-found-in...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/explosives-arsenal-...
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/06/police-find-explosive...
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/07/officials-bomb-squad-...

.
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quicksilver
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[*] posted on 9-3-2012 at 10:16


In the last issue of "Fireworks News" there was an article that dealt with the BATF's desire to see pyrotechnic hobbyists obtaining a license from that agency. In the ATF's web site there is a monthly dialog that details the agency's perspective on the licensing issue. The agency states that it is not it's desire to curtail responsible hobby involvement in pyrotechnics. However it is the agency's desire to make sure that hobby is pursued in a mature fashion. {See March 2012 edition:"BATF Clarifies Hobby Situation, Urges Licensing"} WWW.atf.gov/publications/newsletters

One of the reasons (IMO) that such problems exist is the IMMATURE pursuit of any pyrotechnics hobby. The study of energetic materials is NOT frowned upon by the ATF. The immature activities involving pyrotechnics is what gets many people's concern. One of the biggest problems is uTube. Almost anyone can find on a daily basis videos of people doing things that are not only immature, dangerous, but completely unproductive. uTube is also a pervasive collection of some of the worst advice on energetic materials I have seen since the plethora of CRAP-BOOKS made it's way to Loonpanics and Desert-Publications.
However, when drugs or booze are combined with energetics (OR firearms) that is a solid prescription for disaster.

ScienceMadness does it's best to coordinate it's Energetics materials section in a mature fashion. There are standing RULES that the discussion of "PRACTICAL USE" WILL NOT BE CONDONED. That means simply that the MAKING of a utilitarian object (device, etc) is frankly against the rules of the Forum. The ATF (to the best of my knowledge) has NO problem with the science and discussion of the science of energetics. I believe they have a very big problem with mixing pyrotechnics or firearms with intoxicants.

The bottom line issue is similar to MANY similar situations. If someone mixes an intoxicating substance with a dangerous agenda, they lack the necessary maturity to continue in that venue.
Does the ATF want to keep track over those individuals who may engage in dangerous behaviors? Yes, I am fairly sure they do.
Does ScienceMadness have immature types accessing it's information? It's public - and the public contains all sorts of people, so I imagine there are some damn immature people who read this Forum. HOWEVER ScienceMadness has every right to discuss subjects of science as well as every right to eliminate individuals who have a negative impact on the mature discussion of science! In so saying, I seriously doubt that 3 letter agencies have this Forum in their cross-hairs due to the specific methods and focus of the manner in which it is maintained.
These are just some of the REASONS why the Forum Rules are designed the way they are. The reason why "no spoon feeding" exists, the thrust and focus on science rather than the practical application, and the curtailment of information designed toward immature activities.




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neptunium
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[*] posted on 9-3-2012 at 13:37


although i completly agree with you i cant help to think that if the media get involve after a few incidents regarding ScienceMadness and some kids loosing a hand or worse, someone somewhere will make a quick, cheap and easy connection and go on a crusade against this forum
Hell ! it only took a few drunks and a bunch of uptight republican christian moms to get prohibition passed!
Again i agree with you and in a perfect world this would go one forever. i just dont have much faith in society when it comes to science ESPECIALLY chemistry.




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[*] posted on 4-4-2012 at 21:17


As is the case with most investigations, the evidence that sees the light of the courtroom is only the most concrete. They'd almost certainly been following this guy for a long time and had more than enough reason to suspect he was up to no good before deciding to bring him in. I don't normally take the side of the police, since I think they're way out of their depth when it comes to chemistry, but when someone is connected to political groups and is making explosives in the lead up to a major protest... I'm honestly glad they were onto this guy.

In Canada we have a fairly liberal judicial system so cops know not to charge someone until they have a SOLID case, and even then it usually gets tossed on a technicality. IMO, this is an example of the system actually working i.e. acting in the interest of protecting the people... of course I mean this in contrast to the average bust you read about where someone is clearly making whatever for their own amusement and the cops treat them like a terrorist organisation or Scarface, quoting "street value" *shudder* in increments of $100K, the usual shtick.

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[*] posted on 5-4-2012 at 07:32


I have met Byron briefly in real life.

This whole thing is complete bullshit. You know they ruined his life and marriage over all this complete with jail time

Basically some government idiots decided to host the G20 summit in Toronto. Due to the inevitable flow of anarchists and hippie protesters they needed to boost security. So for a few days Toronto turned into a fascist police state with cops and metal fences everywhere.

Some anarchists punks from Quebec started a riot, smashed a Starbucks window, set a few police cars on fire, etc.

So the fascists decide they need to nail someone and make it stick.

They are claiming he could make "200 grams of TATP" with a jug of acetone. Give me a break!

They are trying to nail him for making a bomb without any actual proof. Just possessing these amateur chemicals anyone could get from Canadian Tire

Of course its politically motivated. Byron was apparently obsessed with the security measures put in place and posted some crap on twitter about it

Now I'm pissed off

EDIT: Here is another news article. Looks like he was trying to goad them on, which was unfortunate

Now I'm sad because I love Canada and would never think of doing anything like this. Everyone needs to be able to have fun doing their own thing as long as it doesn't affect others. Until they take it away from you.

[Edited on 5-4-2012 by mr.crow]




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[*] posted on 5-4-2012 at 11:21


Quote: Originally posted by ripple  
cops know not to charge someone until they have a SOLID case, and even then it usually gets tossed on a technicality.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2009/08/06/f-wrongfully-...
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[*] posted on 5-4-2012 at 12:13


yup, wrongfully accused people go to jail too- way cool with the "just sayin" one-line reply, btw. you're a hero.

I don't feel at all bad for this guy- you want to 'test the system'? well, test the whole thing- let us know what the grub is like in the klink. This whole "just kidding" defence doesn't hold water. Even if this was his real intention, what kind of an arrogant pos is this guy? Its his duty to draw attention to holes in the system but not take responsibility for it when it actually works? and then there's the resources that got spent cleaning this up... its just too stupid.





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[*] posted on 5-4-2012 at 16:52


I'm not saying he was right, but it still is a severe punishment. Seeing police pictures of chemical bottles, flasks and workbenches on the news hits a little too close to home



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[*] posted on 5-4-2012 at 18:12


Total, unadulterated, weapons-grade Horse-Shit.

O3




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[*] posted on 5-4-2012 at 18:34


I agree completely... for those reasons, though, i think its important not to throw in with the troublemakers that just share a common interest... barely. There is nothing about this situation that I'd want to be associated with, and just like with 'meth cooks', its good PR to take the opportunity to distance the legit community as much as possible from this guy and his ilk.

It sucks that science is so inextricably linked to crime in the news, since from our perspectives, most of us couldn't be further from the types of crime hobby chemistry is instantly associated with... damn bad apples... not even real chemists... *grumble, grumble*

know wa i sayn?

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[*] posted on 5-4-2012 at 18:37


haha that was really pretty funny, O3
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[*] posted on 8-4-2012 at 21:45


after reading what happened to byron sonne and the evidence against him I'm VERY scared now.

I live in toronto and i have almost all the same household chemicals he does, if the government is going to throw me in jail by inferring (rather than proving) that i'm trying to make bombs then i'm as good as convicted.

I don't know what to do, i don't want to give up science but how do i prove i don't have i'll intent?
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[*] posted on 8-4-2012 at 22:37


Quote: Originally posted by nora_summers  
after reading what happened to byron sonne and the evidence against him I'm VERY scared now.

I live in toronto and i have almost all the same household chemicals he does, if the government is going to throw me in jail by inferring (rather than proving) that i'm trying to make bombs then i'm as good as convicted.

I don't know what to do, i don't want to give up science but how do i prove i don't have ill intent?


Keep an accurate lab journal, keep your lab clean with everything neatly labeled, and don't make indiscrete posts/tweets to anarchist or other trouble-making groups. You might even drop by your local fire martial and ask if she (or he) has a brochure on do's and don'ts for amateur chemistry labs; it could save you lots of grief should you currently be unknowingly breaking local ordinances in terms of chemical storage.

-Bobby
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[*] posted on 8-4-2012 at 23:21


I do not understand what he did wrong, could someone please explain.
It would be a sad day indeed when having a home chemistry laboratory is illegal.
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[*] posted on 15-5-2012 at 10:33


Good News?

Now there is a precedent that possessing simple chemicals does not automatically mean you are going to assemble a bomb




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[*] posted on 15-5-2012 at 15:37


I was talking with a guy I met about building one and we started getting set to design the thing. He was good with a lathe and we were going to make ceramic motor molds and fire motors at the potters' shed. He had some 3" alloy tubing that would have served and access to a hangar for calibrating the weight distribution and fin alignment. we were going to make fuel with perchlorate and asphalt mixtures. But he wanted to get permits and go to a sanctioned launch pad. I wanted to go out to the desert and fire it with a roll of foil that would unfurl at the apex. Still have the drawings somewhere...



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[*] posted on 16-5-2012 at 07:10


chemrox, I think you posted in the wrong thread, whoops!



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